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11 of 11
The 11th Hour
0
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Posted - 2013.04.02 06:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Have spent a good amount of time trying to search subjects even as broad as Google to see if there's any evidence, don't see any so just have to ask?
Are there people running bots or scripts to manipulate the market?
Yeah I know, it sounds like a nightmare situation where you try all you can to advance fairly only to have some jack ass in China or who knows where else, cheat.
I have an item I have made, bought the BPC (Blue print copy) and entered a market sell order at Jita. They are rare.
BAM! Just like 1 second after I entered the order, some other sell order reduced by just a fraction of an ISK. I tried to adjust lower 5 minutes later and BAM, almost as if before I clicked OK, the other sell order adjusted lower again.
I've tried this well, 23 hours a day for the last week and have found that every single time I adjust my price, it seems as if a bot is lowering the sale price of the item so I can never have the lowest sell price.
I've picture gangs of kids like in Iran (Argo) working diligently to churn ISK like piecing together shreds of paper, but this totally looks like someone running a market bot. Do they exist?
11 of 11
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Minmat Sebtin
House of Sebtin
32
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Posted - 2013.04.02 08:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
1/10 Are you an Industrialist who uses large amounts of Construction Components? Looking for ways to reduce costs? Then I can help you! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174135 |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
209
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Posted - 2013.04.02 08:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yes there are market bots.
There are also a lot of EULA legal market tools that allow you to edit orders pretty much instantly as soon as some one creates and order better than yours. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
4
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Posted - 2013.04.02 09:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
There is probably some person in Jita saying the exact same thing about me this weekend....every time I went to check an order, he had updated it 10-20s previously.
Am I a bot, or am I just watching no more than 5 orders and tabbing back at a lucky time each time? The person/people who I have been undercutting may or may not have been updating every 5 minutes, I just know that when I click on the order, it showed the time on the one above me as 6d 23h 59m 56s or so.
Yes, it is frustrating when it happens (and yes, it happens to everybody), but, with no way of knowing if it is the same person each time, my first assumption is not "bot", but that one of the other 1500 traders in Jita, (and god knows how many others doing it at range in the forge) have either put in a new order, or updated one of theirs. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
477
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Posted - 2013.04.02 09:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
you changed your order exactly 5 min? guess what, the other guy was like, oh this is a wise guy, let me make sure mines are always on top, just to spite the competitor.
you just did it, every one does it, except it usually ends in 2 and a half our E-peen measurement marathons. |
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
0
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Posted - 2013.04.02 09:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ya'll are cute indeed. Yet what I am actually talking about is a real bot, as in an automated script that has totally shut down the market.
It's not a real person at all. It changes the sell price by .11 the very second you enter a market order. I have been watching it for weeks. There is no way to enter a lower bid, ever. Most certainly not people. People can't even click a button that fast.
If I didn't think better I would suspect CCP of rigging it.
11 of 11
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Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
13
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Posted - 2013.04.02 10:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
As this topic has been discussed many time, yes there are market bots and there are 3rd party "legit" software that lets you modify your orders faster than humanly possible.
CCP usually ignores these if they do not cause too much trouble. If you make 100s of billions of ISK than you might get banned but other than that these kind of software is pretty much tolerated. |
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
4
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Posted - 2013.04.02 11:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
11 of 11 wrote:Ya'll are cute indeed. Yet what I am actually talking about is a real bot, as in an automated script that has totally shut down the market.
It's not a real person at all. It changes the sell price by .11 the very second you enter a market order. I have been watching it for weeks. There is no way to enter a lower bid, ever. Most certainly not people. People can't even click a button that fast.
If I didn't think better I would suspect CCP of rigging it.
11 of 11
So, let me see if I understand this...
1) You have a rare BPC, which sells for a large profit on the market 2) This market has only you, and one or two other traders in it 3) You are of course, eager to sell your item, so are forcing market refresh, whether through the price history tab, or via wallet. 4) You likely have your "modify order" screen open, with the price ready to go in, as soon as it hits 5 minutes 5) The other trader, is also aware of the profit in this item, and is likely doing the same....as soon as he sees the order value change, he adjusts his modify screen, and keeps on the refresh button. As soon as 5 minutes is up, he hits enter. 6) Despite you watching like a hawk, he cannot be, and must be a bot
Yes, he will have other orders open, but honestly, choosing between my 10% items and my 100% items, I am going to sit like a hawk on my 100% ones, because I need to shift those before anyone else figures out my market. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1298
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Posted - 2013.04.02 13:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Btw, there are no "legit" 3rd party software tools that allow you to change your orders faster than humanly possible. That is a bot. Whether you hit a button that says "change all my orders now" or you have it set on a timer, it's a bot.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
5
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Posted - 2013.04.02 13:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Btw, there are no "legit" 3rd party software tools that allow you to change your orders faster than humanly possible. That is a bot. Whether you hit a button that says "change all my orders now" or you have it set on a timer, it's a bot.
I have re-read this thread, and the others, and I see nobody arguing the fact that there are market bots. There are bots in all games, but labelling every competitor a bot or a wallhacker is as inaccurate as stating there are no bots.
People are questioning the scale of botting, not whether it exists. Opinions appear to range from "Everyone but me is a bot" to "There are probably a couple of % of market traders that are bots" |
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
209
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Posted - 2013.04.02 13:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Btw, there are no "legit" 3rd party software tools that allow you to change your orders faster than humanly possible. That is a bot. Whether you hit a button that says "change all my orders now" or you have it set on a timer, it's a bot.
Well no. It's legal to use software tools that can change 10's of orders per min while providing you with an exact value to .11 isk or 0.1 isk or what ever u want to change. The market tools are readily avalible and easy to set up. I suggest anyone who moans go get one and HTFU! (I once moaned about bots too but now I just use ''tools'' to make easy isk so I can spend the time playing eve. Trust me stop moaning and join them).
It is vital to ensure all automation occurs outside of the client as this is what keeps it EULA legal. As long as you interact with the client normally you are fine. Even if your interaction is simply hitting return 50 times or clicking each order this is still legal interaction.
Till CCP change the EULA (they won't) they are legal to use. A few reasons why CCP won't change the EULA to ban these ''bots'' is because so many key players are using them including your local lottery provider. The only time you'll get banned using these tools is if you start to sell your ISK via RMT. You'll also get banned if you start dumping massive amounts of isk to your mates like the EVE uni dude or if you start messing with PLEX price ect. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
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Posted - 2013.04.02 14:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Market bots obviously exist. A simple google search will give you a list of sites selling them. CCP themselves have provided compelling evidence of them in the statistics they have published subsequent to banning them. There is no reason to have any argument about their existence, at all.
However, the majority of people that come to the forums to complain about their market activities being impacted by market bots have little or no evidence to back up their claims. The behavior they complain about could just as easily be the result of normal market competition. In general they are either whining about being outplayed or trolling. |
Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
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Posted - 2013.04.02 17:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: Well no. It's legal to use software tools that can change 10's of orders per min while providing you with an exact value to .11 isk or 0.1 isk or what ever u want to change.
If you are using software that modifies the orders for you, you are using a bot and violating the EULA.
If you are using software that just tells you which orders need to be updated, but you still have to goto wallet ingame and modify the order yourself, that is not a bot. |
Milan Nantucket
New Eden Misfits
26
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Posted - 2013.04.02 17:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Btw, there are no "legit" 3rd party software tools that allow you to change your orders faster than humanly possible. That is a bot. Whether you hit a button that says "change all my orders now" or you have it set on a timer, it's a bot.
Well no. It's legal to use software tools that can change 10's of orders per min while providing you with an exact value to .11 isk or 0.1 isk or what ever u want to change. The market tools are readily avalible and easy to set up. I suggest anyone who moans go get one and HTFU! (I once moaned about bots too but now I just use ''tools'' to make easy isk so I can spend the time playing eve. Trust me stop moaning and join them). It is vital to ensure all automation occurs outside of the client as this is what keeps it EULA legal. As long as you interact with the client normally you are fine. Even if your interaction is simply hitting return 50 times or clicking each order this is still legal interaction. Till CCP change the EULA (they won't) they are legal to use. A few reasons why CCP won't change the EULA to ban these ''bots'' is because so many key players are using them including your local lottery provider. The only time you'll get banned using these tools is if you start to sell your ISK via RMT. You'll also get banned if you start dumping massive amounts of isk to your mates like the EVE uni dude or if you start messing with PLEX price ect.
Post some examples of the "legit" ones. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
209
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Posted - 2013.04.02 17:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
http://www.evementat.com/ Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1256
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Posted - 2013.04.02 18:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:http://www.evementat.com/
We must have different definitions of instant.
Eve Mentat does keep track of your orders. Using the API. The market order API updates infrequently (cache time is 1380 minutes on the wiki)
It does keep track of the market. When you look at the market for that item. It's a cache scraper. Which means you have to go and look to get it updated. Sure, you can use the page to do it, but that's limited to one order ever 3 seconds.
And only once it's updated both, will it alert you to the fact you've been outbid. And insert a new price into your clipboard. Which you can then paste in when you go to modify the order.
So much faster than rolling the scrollwheel. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
477
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Posted - 2013.04.02 18:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
11 of 11 wrote:Ya'll are cute indeed. Yet what I am actually talking about is a real bot, as in an automated script that has totally shut down the market.
It's not a real person at all. It changes the sell price by .11 the very second you enter a market order. I have been watching it for weeks. There is no way to enter a lower bid, ever. Most certainly not people. People can't even click a button that fast.
If I didn't think better I would suspect CCP of rigging it.
11 of 11
What items are we talking about? what station? |
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
0
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Posted - 2013.04.02 18:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:11 of 11 wrote:Ya'll are cute indeed. Yet what I am actually talking about is a real bot, as in an automated script that has totally shut down the market.
It's not a real person at all. It changes the sell price by .11 the very second you enter a market order. I have been watching it for weeks. There is no way to enter a lower bid, ever. Most certainly not people. People can't even click a button that fast.
If I didn't think better I would suspect CCP of rigging it.
11 of 11
What items are we talking about? what station?
Jita 4/4 Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
I.E.
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Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
5
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Posted - 2013.04.02 19:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
11 of 11 wrote:
Jita 4/4 Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
I.E.
You mean this item?
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PMvzSkU.jpg[/IMG]
Not overly busy on that item...no activity for almost an hour, and the two updates prior to that were 10 minutes apart. The top order was updated 10 minutes after the one before it.
The price history
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/9EZNQFc.jpg[/IMG]
Shows barely any daily volume on the item, comparative to the number of orders, with it being swings and roundabouts whether it goes to buys or sells on a particular day.
There are lots of buy orders and sell orders, relative to the volume shifted each day, and it looks like most of those are updated once or twice a day...... |
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
0
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Posted - 2013.04.02 19:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
When you place a market sell order a bot instantly decreases the price by -.01. There is no way that a human or even groups of people (like the Iranian kids in Argo) could ever be so fast as to adjust the price in less than a second.
The movement outside of -.01 increments you are seeing is by real people such as myself.
The -.01 drops are being done instantly by what I call a bot, an automated script to manipulate and control the market, that pretty much discourages me from trusting the EVE market as being fair.
I've read all of ya'll comments and appreciate them. Seems EVE is just one dead end after another. Try to be innovative only to learn that someones cheating. The EVE Mentat program looks interesting but I can't come to download and install a program which on it's face has so many grammatical errors.
So I guess my question has been answered. Yes, people are running bots to manipulate the market and there's just one more thing I thought might be cool and fun to try to master. But I'm not gonna stoop as low nor have time to cheat.
11 of 11
Mila Chancel wrote:11 of 11 wrote:
Jita 4/4 Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
I.E.
You mean this item? [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PMvzSkU.jpg[/IMG]Not overly busy on that item...no activity for almost an hour, and the two updates prior to that were 10 minutes apart. The top order was updated 10 minutes after the one before it. The price history [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/9EZNQFc.jpg[/IMG]Shows barely any daily volume on the item, comparative to the number of orders, with it being swings and roundabouts whether it goes to buys or sells on a particular day. There are lots of buy orders and sell orders, relative to the volume shifted each day, and it looks like most of those are updated once or twice a day...... |
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Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
5
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Posted - 2013.04.02 19:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Now, the one ending .96 has moved to .93 (the one which had not been touched for an hour.
It has been the top order now for 3 minutes (10 by the time I posted this)...so, either the bot forgot to update for 55 minutes, or, the bot is not the one who updated, and the bot has now logged off, smack in the transection of EU and US prime time...... (Not a good plan for a bot)
Jita 4/4
DISCLAIMER: This is not me saying that there are no bots, it is me saying that this item does not have a bot at present, or if it does, it is crap, and forgot to inform the owner for almost an hour that it had been outbid, or, if it is one of the other orders, it has not yet realised it has been outbid after 10 minutes.
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
477
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Posted - 2013.04.02 19:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
there are 3 orders, being updated almost exactly 30 min each, creating a 10 min price modification over the 3 items.
I suspect the seconds are not perfect due to internet lagg, as all traders know, sometimes it will lagg for a second or 3 most of the time it wont.
Im leaning towards a macro that simply modifies prices on each of the 3 items every 30 min spaced exactly 10 min apart from each other, probably backed up by a 2nd macro to make sure some one doesn't come by and starts scrolly wheeling.
Since macro's are allowed, then whats to stop some one from using multiple macro's that are intertwined in an intricate manor?
Whats to stop some one from seeing this and doing the same thing, then a 3rd person? How soon before some one who wont care about anything and just let it rip across 50 characters and just take the market for a month before CCP takes out macro use and API market functions and ruin this for EVERY ONE (including macro and non macro users?)
-- Normally I wouldn't care, but it seems like this will soon become very annoying and if not halted, statistically speaking, the chances of me eventually becoming actively annoyed are much greater then not over the course of the next 12 months.
Furthermore, since I cannot find any websites opensourcing this, then we will soon be looking at a mass public anoyance, Im not going to say imminent but... this needs to be fixed in a civilized manor (I.E. without removal of market API functions and allowance of Macro use) before something bad happens and im pretty sure it will.
(edited) what about a scrolly wheel macro that rely's on market average price?
Are we all to start using macro's to stay on the market? |
Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
59
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Posted - 2013.04.02 19:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
I've dealt with many market bots over the years and all the fully automated ones I have seen wait a minimum of 10 minutes befure updating, and some also tack on another random 10 minutes to that. Also if you set up a scam margin order with a buy above the lowest sell they will instantly cancel, use this trick to find out for sure. Instant updaters are people just protecting their markets. They COULD be using an automated tool to alert them they been outbid, but theyre probably doing the actual updating by hand. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1301
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
I once mailed someone i thought was a bot, asking for the list of items he buys, so i could simply pick other items. He gets to stay on top all the time, I get to actually buy some stuff too, figured it was a win win. This was his response to me:
Quote:My Name ist Robo^^ RoboroBOTnic.. . ;)
I dont use bots i buy all items.. . nothing list..
I reported him as a bot, he went away for 3 days. He came back, and instead of being on all the time, he logs on every 15 min, updates his orders and logs off. Market bots and people using "tools" do a lot of harm to the market. It's great those using them enjoy it, but doesn't make it right.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
88
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Crazy idea. Solution to the bot problem. Move off HUB.
I am sure you will find this has benefits, and you dont have to bother with competing with bots or with bot-like humans.
Not sure what you are trading, but if its something not pure HUB centric like moon-pooh I can asure you there is good reasons to start thinking out of hubs.
Also the more people start moving off hub, the more the bot issue gets resolved. Unless bots can suddenly shift stations easily, oh and remote stacking should mess up their functions. (maybe this is the only argument for keeping the remote stack issue unresolved)
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
199
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
I am locking this thread as there is already a similar thread on the same topic that started earlier than this one.
So if gladly refer you to this thread, to continue the discussion. ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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