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Arronicus
vintas industries Mistakes Were Made.
453
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
Are these common? As per: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2802507#post2802507
Trying to find out if many others have had their stuff stolen in these sorts of circumstances, or if there are legit ones that run? |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
330
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Doesn't seem like a scam, I don't see why someone with 10 pretty decent T2 BPOs would scam for what is a relatively small sum. Seems like the renter messed up and got punished excessively for it.
Pretty simple solution would be just to get a 3rd party to hold some collateral if people are renting from those they don't trust. |
Blueprint Seller
The Blueprint Shop
76
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Pretty simple solution would be just to get a 3rd party to hold some collateral if people are renting from those they don't trust. This method does not work. A 3rd party has to be able to verify the claims of the 1st and 2nd party in order to take appropriate action with collateral.
The correct way to do this is to have the entire operation held by the 3rd party, so that the blueprint provider has no access to anything.
I have and still do run a number of blueprint rental schemes myself, without any 3rd party involvement, but I am very selective of my business partners and expect them to be equally careful about taking up a rental agreement with me. |
joyous the
Slippery Penguin
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
>Enter into rental agreement >Break rental agreement >Upset when rental agreement is cancelled
Sums up that thread. |
Otti Ottig
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
actually, if you look at the BPO-¦s they arent very profitable (doesnt mean they arent worth a lot) so it would actually take quite a bit time and effort to get the 22b out of them. And the way i was reading the whole story it was a pretty clear case of a scam. renter took all the assets etc because he didnt log in for 7 days ....come on dude
@blueprint seller -Client pays the renting fee to a third party -after a certain period of time 3rd parties claryfies if both parties were happy, -renter gets the isk from 3rd party
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Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Otti Ottig wrote:
actually, if you look at the BPO-¦s they arent very profitable (doesnt mean they arent worth a lot) so it would actually take quite a bit time and effort to get the 22b out of them. And the way i was reading the whole story it was a pretty clear case of a scam. renter took all the assets etc because he didnt log in for 7 days ....come on dude
The way I read the story is that while the guy who was renting could have been kinder they didn't -have- to be and in either case it wasn't a "scam" as such.
The renter disappeared from the game and didn't pay what was owed. The "landlord" made multiple attempts over a period of days to contact the renter. The renter did not respond. The "landlord" took action and cleared the premises for a new renter. A few days later the renter shows up and gets mad.
At this point, sure, the "landlord" could have returned the stuff but they were under no obligation to do so. The fault and the cause of the situation is all on the renter. They disappeared, they didn't give notice of said absence, and they didn't make alternative arrangements should they be forced offline for multiple days. If I know that real life might step up and interrupt my game time I let people know of that uncertainty.
Okay, unforeseen situations do happen.. no worries there but if that happened to me I wouldn't expect the "landlord" to be holding onto my stuff just in case I came back.
I'm not saying that this wasn't a bit of a jerk move by the "landlord" but that doesn't make it a scam.
So, yeah, no scam in this situation and thus to address the OP: No, scams like these don't happen since, in my view, it wasn't a scam in the first place. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
330
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Otti Ottig wrote: actually, if you look at the BPO-¦s they arent very profitable (doesnt mean they arent worth a lot) so it would actually take quite a bit time and effort to get the 22b out of them. And the way i was reading the whole story it was a pretty clear case of a scam. renter took all the assets etc because he didnt log in for 7 days ....come on dude
@blueprint seller -Client pays the renting fee to a third party -after a certain period of time 3rd parties claryfies if both parties were happy, -renter gets the isk from 3rd party
Its not a scam dude, read the thread its just petty squabbling but it wasn't a 'scam'.
I agree with blueprint in hindsight, unlike normal in this case APIs couldn't prove anything so in the case of a disagreement between the two they would have no way of knowing who to payout to. Having them manage the whole fund could be expensive as it requires and alt to run the corp etc, but it seems the only option. |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
465
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote:Otti Ottig wrote:
actually, if you look at the BPO-¦s they arent very profitable (doesnt mean they arent worth a lot) so it would actually take quite a bit time and effort to get the 22b out of them. And the way i was reading the whole story it was a pretty clear case of a scam. renter took all the assets etc because he didnt log in for 7 days ....come on dude
The way I read the story is that while the guy who was renting could have been kinder they didn't -have- to be and in either case it wasn't a "scam" as such. The renter disappeared from the game and didn't pay what was owed. The "landlord" made multiple attempts over a period of days to contact the renter. The renter did not respond. The "landlord" took action and cleared the premises for a new renter. A few days later the renter shows up and gets mad. At this point, sure, the "landlord" could have returned the stuff but they were under no obligation to do so. The fault and the cause of the situation is all on the renter. They disappeared, they didn't give notice of said absence, and they didn't make alternative arrangements should they be forced offline for multiple days. If I know that real life might step up and interrupt my game time I let people know of that uncertainty. Okay, unforeseen situations do happen.. no worries there but if that happened to me I wouldn't expect the "landlord" to be holding onto my stuff just in case I came back. I'm not saying that this wasn't a bit of a jerk move by the "landlord" but that doesn't make it a scam. So, yeah, no scam in this situation and thus to address the OP: No, scams like these don't happen since, in my view, it wasn't a scam in the first place.
Actually, the renter DID pay what was owed. He was fully up to date on rent. The ONLY reason the BPO owner cancelled the whole thing, and stole his items was because the pos, all the contents of which, belonged to the renter, and which wasn't shot, went offline for a couple days.
Thanks for all the input though. It's good to see how everyone views the way events panned out. For anyone who isn't clear, I'll summarize in brief:
Renter was fully paid, in advance, on rent. Had to go away on business for 5 days, didn't have any means of accessing eve. During that time, he wasn't able to fuel the control tower that contained ONLY stuff belonging to him. All the BPOS were safely locked in the station. Corp was not wardecced, pos was not shot at. BPO owner sent him a few messages, then kicked him from the corp (Despite being fully paid for the rent, the pos not being attacked, and the BPOs not being at any risk), and stole all his assetts. Upon learning that RL happened the way it did, BPO owner refused to make ANY accomodations, was incredibly vulgar, and refused to return any of the Renters stuff.
Hence why I call it a scam/theft. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
330
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:Actually, the renter DID pay what was owed. He was fully up to date on rent. The ONLY reason the BPO owner cancelled the whole thing, and stole his items was because the pos, all the contents of which, belonged to the renter, and which wasn't shot, went offline for a couple days.
Renter broke the agreement, simple as. You seem to only have spoken to the 'victim' and instantly chosen a side. If he is a scammer why don't you go chat to all the other people who rented from him as per his OP, the amounts will have been similar so he had no reason to build trust, so surely he scammed them as well. Not sure why you care so much, it wasn't your stuff and no one is forcing you to rent from this guy, I'd hope anyone on planning on using his services would do some proper research anyway. |
Otti Ottig
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
The renter had no reason/right to take anything that was not part of the agreement in first place, no matter if he (slightly) broke it or not. Not like evil toy had a reputation that could have been destroyed, he had no Forum history at all before this happaned, so the Argument -Reputation > Isk- has literally no weight here. 22b are well worth burning some random alt |
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Captain-Jean LucPicard
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote: Not sure why you care so much,
funny, I was JUST thinking the same about you :D
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IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
330
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Captain-Jean LucPicard wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote: Not sure why you care so much, funny, I was JUST thinking the same about you :D
Yeah, hence why I made a thread in a different forum about it, but thanks for the input whoever you are.
Otti Ottig wrote:The renter had no reason/right to take anything that was not part of the agreement in first place, no matter if he (slightly) broke it or not. Not like evil toy had a reputation that could have been destroyed, he had no Forum history at all before this happaned, so the Argument -Reputation > Isk- has literally no weight here. 22b are well worth burning some random alt
Yeah I agree that an alt is worth 22b, even if it does require several 100bn in T2 BPOs tied up, however if it were a scam why take the chance of him breaking the agreement? Why not just take the lot on day 2, it doesn't really make any logical sense to me, the faster he takes all the stuff the faster he can recycle the alt and fake a sale of the BPOs and do it again on a new character. |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
246
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
I enjoy this thread |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
465
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Captain-Jean LucPicard wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote: Not sure why you care so much, funny, I was JUST thinking the same about you :D Yeah, hence why I made a thread in a different forum about it, but thanks for the input whoever you are. Otti Ottig wrote:The renter had no reason/right to take anything that was not part of the agreement in first place, no matter if he (slightly) broke it or not. Not like evil toy had a reputation that could have been destroyed, he had no Forum history at all before this happaned, so the Argument -Reputation > Isk- has literally no weight here. 22b are well worth burning some random alt Yeah I agree that an alt is worth 22b, even if it does require several 100bn in T2 BPOs tied up, however if it were a scam why take the chance of him breaking the agreement? Why not just take the lot on day 2, it doesn't really make any logical sense to me, the faster he takes all the stuff the faster he can recycle the alt and fake a sale of the BPOs and do it again on a new character.
It's a valid point, why not take it on day2, and my reasoning is that probably so that he can have 'some excuse' of why he was justified to take it. If not a scam, still theft. |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
246
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 21:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Captain-Jean LucPicard wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote: Not sure why you care so much, funny, I was JUST thinking the same about you :D Yeah, hence why I made a thread in a different forum about it, but thanks for the input whoever you are. Otti Ottig wrote:The renter had no reason/right to take anything that was not part of the agreement in first place, no matter if he (slightly) broke it or not. Not like evil toy had a reputation that could have been destroyed, he had no Forum history at all before this happaned, so the Argument -Reputation > Isk- has literally no weight here. 22b are well worth burning some random alt Yeah I agree that an alt is worth 22b, even if it does require several 100bn in T2 BPOs tied up, however if it were a scam why take the chance of him breaking the agreement? Why not just take the lot on day 2, it doesn't really make any logical sense to me, the faster he takes all the stuff the faster he can recycle the alt and fake a sale of the BPOs and do it again on a new character. It's a valid point, why not take it on day2, and my reasoning is that probably so that he can have 'some excuse' of why he was justified to take it. If not a scam, still theft.
At this point its not a scam or theft. Its the eve online equivelant of a civil lawsuit. Although there are no courts in EvE.
One person claims that a buisness contract was violated.
the other person claims that there was no violation of contract and incurred a loss as a result of the actions of the contractor. |
Captain-Jean LucPicard
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alex Grison wrote:
At this point its not a scam or theft. Its the eve online equivelant of a civil lawsuit. Although there are no courts in EvE.
One person claims that a buisness contract was violated.
the other person claims that there was no violation of contract and incurred a loss as a result of the actions of the contractor.
not quite true,
if toy would have just cancelled the contract and just denie to refund the fee for the renting, you could say that. unfortunetly there is the little thing with the investment of 22b that have never been a part of the agreement. |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
247
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Captain-Jean LucPicard wrote:Alex Grison wrote:
At this point its not a scam or theft. Its the eve online equivelant of a civil lawsuit. Although there are no courts in EvE.
One person claims that a buisness contract was violated.
the other person claims that there was no violation of contract and incurred a loss as a result of the actions of the contractor.
not quite true, if toy would have just cancelled the contract and just denie to refund the fee for the renting, you could say that. unfortunetly there is the little thing with the investment of 22b that have never been a part of the agreement.
let the litigation begin. |
Minmat Sebtin
House of Sebtin
32
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 23:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alex Grison wrote:Captain-Jean LucPicard wrote:Alex Grison wrote:
At this point its not a scam or theft. Its the eve online equivelant of a civil lawsuit. Although there are no courts in EvE.
One person claims that a buisness contract was violated.
the other person claims that there was no violation of contract and incurred a loss as a result of the actions of the contractor.
not quite true, if toy would have just cancelled the contract and just denie to refund the fee for the renting, you could say that. unfortunetly there is the little thing with the investment of 22b that have never been a part of the agreement. let the litigation begin.
What you are about to witness is real. The participants are not actors. They are actual litigants with a case pending in civil court. Both parties have agreed to drop their claims and have their cases settled here, before Judge Alex Grison, in our forum: Market Discussions. Are you an Industrialist who uses large amounts of Construction Components? Looking for ways to reduce costs? Then I can help you! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174135 |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
466
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 23:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Seems legit. Would put this before judge judy just to see her reaction. "YOU DONT ******* PAY ME ENOUGH FOR ME TO SETTLE INNERNET TOY DISPUTES" |
Gabba Cyno
30
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 01:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
- This wasnt a scam
- This was evil's toy stealing my stuff
- His reason was I left EVE and let a POS run out of fuel
- POS never was shot at
- POS only had my items in it
- My rent was pre-paid
- Truth is I couldnt log into EVE for 5 days because of work
- I tried/begged to make it right, even offering more ISK in the billions
- Evil refused and eventually just ignored me
- Rent with him at your own risk
- I posted on his thread just like I would post on chribba's thread when he does a great job as a third party
- Reputation goes both ways, good or bad
. |
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Proton Power
Evolution The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 14:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have personally rented from him 2 different times, both times where nothing short of outstanding.
The BPO"S are very profitable, he never took anything of mine, and even did a few other deals with him to benifit both of us.
If he took your stuff, you screwed up, not him. Your 22bil in stuff is petty change to what he does on a daily basis. |
joyous the
Slippery Penguin
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 18:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Otti Ottig wrote:The renter had no reason/right to take anything that was not part of the agreement in first place, no matter if he (slightly) broke it or not. Not like evil toy had a reputation that could have been destroyed, he had no Forum history at all before this happaned, so the Argument -Reputation > Isk- has literally no weight here. 22b are well worth burning some random alt
Maybe your search skills are lacking. As Evil Toy has been renting t2 bpos for many many years.
http://eve-search.com/stats/evil's_toy |
Savel
Lead Farmers Origin Kill It With Fire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 10:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Gabba Cyno wrote:
- This wasnt a scam
- This was evil's toy stealing my stuff
- His reason was I left EVE and let a POS run out of fuel
- POS never was shot at
- POS only had my items in it
- My rent was pre-paid
- Truth is I couldnt log into EVE for 5 days because of work
- I tried/begged to make it right, even offering more ISK in the billions
- Evil refused and eventually just ignored me
- Rent with him at your own risk
- I posted on his thread just like I would post on chribba's thread when he does a great job as a third party
- Reputation goes both ways, good or bad
There is this beautiful website called eve gate. It lets you send mails while out of game. There are also these applications for your phone which let you read mails and get notifications. You keep looking at this as a theft, so lets look at what happened.
You went awal and failed to do your job in EvE, this was to fuel the POS, many alliances if your POS gives notifications will just pull it, it is a common practice from those who have run POSs because the notification spam is a *****. Your contract stated you must fuel the POS, you did not do this. Because of this everything at the tower was pulled back into the corp.
According to the agreement you signed there is nothing about what happens when you breach the contract. The simple fact is according to the contract you signed if you breach the contract you lose what you were given access to, which the easiest way to do in EvE is remove you from the corp.
The simple fact here is you screw up, and while yes evil could have been nice and given you back the 22B, there is nothing in the contract which says he will, there is nothing which says what will happen if you break the contract. The services he provided, aka the alt corp, were removed and the assets left on the corp were seized.
While yes it isn't how I would have handled the situation, and the contract he posted for renting isn't what I would have posted. He was not in breach of the contract by doing what he did and it was valid. |
Captain-Jean LucPicard
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 12:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Savel aka nother alt[quote=Gabba Cyno wrote:
The simple fact here is you screw up, and while yes evil could have been nice and given you back the 22B, there is nothing in the contract which says he will, there is nothing which says what will happen if you break the contract. The services he provided, aka the alt corp, were removed and the assets left on the corp were seized.
logical fail...
it has nothing to do with beeing nice to not steal what doesnt belong to you. Im sure there was also never anything mentioned that toy can keep everything what Gabba would put in the corp hangar if the contract fails.
protip: Eve is not exactly the most important thing in the world...so staying away for 7 days shouldnt be considered as a crime and anyone who does the real live thing every once and a while, or even ha a job can easily understand this situation where you simply can`t reply. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
380
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 12:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
This splits into the legal and moral aspect.
In the legal sense evil has not done anything wrong. The contract stipulated that you keep the POS fuelled. The moment it ran out of fuel. Your contract was void and he was well within his rights to eject you and your things from the POS and Corp.
As for your things that where in someone else's POS. In my opinion he should have returned them to you but he is not required to do so and nor has he broken your agreement by keeping them.
I still think evil could have handled this better and that future contracts should clearly stipulate that in case the contract does go void then the content of the POS and station befall the renter.
Outside of all of this. Evil should also be compensated for the remainder of the contract date since he will lose isk in the time it takes to find a new client. I could understand if he took this loss out of your belongings found at the POS and returned the rest to you.
Evil have acted within his rights but he did show weakness of character by taking the clients belongings with the only motivation "that he could"
It's like if a super cap manufacture sells a Nyx to a client. Then right after isk has changed hands they call in a fleet to destroy the nyx. Yes they did everything in accordance with the agreed to contract but their conduct could still be called into question. We miss you Saede. |
Elizabeth Norn
Tax Evasion Haven New Eden Research.
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 13:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:This splits into the legal and moral aspect.
In the legal sense evil has not done anything wrong. The contract stipulated that you keep the POS fuelled. The moment it ran out of fuel. Your contract was void and he was well within his rights to eject you and your things from the POS and Corp.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2168023 .
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Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity
171
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 17:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
If his possessions were returned, less liquidated damages, then this would be seen as a contract dispute.
Since no possessions were returned at all, this appears to be 100% scam. |
sci0gon
Tech X Blue Print Creations Superior Eve Engineering
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 20:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Outside of all of this. Evil should also be compensated for the remainder of the contract date since he will lose isk in the time it takes to find a new client. I could understand if he took this loss out of your belongings found at the POS and returned the rest to you.
The thing is Evil does not even need to do this to make isk, he could easily build from the bpo's himself, however from how i see it Evil is doing this renting service to provide a service towards those who don't have access to these bpo's and thus offers this rental package.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on how this is ending up, some may see it as Evil being a scammer or thief or whatever you want to call it, others may see it as a just action on Evils part and there are also those sit on the fence. personally I feel this will affect both Evil and Gabba's reputation.
Evil for what you can see from peoples posts Gabba with his disposable alts on a multi-posting witch hunt. its a shame Captain-Jean LucPicard was deleted, I'm sure i'm not the only person to notice this either. |
Gabba Cyno
32
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 21:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
No alts bro. This is the only account I post with
. |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
505
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 00:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:This splits into the legal and moral aspect.
In the legal sense evil has not done anything wrong. The contract stipulated that you keep the POS fuelled. The moment it ran out of fuel. Your contract was void and he was well within his rights to eject you and your things from the POS and Corp.
Actually, no, the contract did NOT stipulate that.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2168023 <--- terms of the contract:
"-the pos fueling is all up to the winner"
There is absolutely nothing mentioned about 'if the pos goes offline or runs out of fuel, the contract is invalidated'. The LATEST offering specifies that, the one in which Gabba was the winning contractor of, did not state that. Thus, evil was the one who broke/violated the contract, not Gabba. But please, feel free to point out where I have erred in this statement? |
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