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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2011.10.14 00:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Can we just get missiles to show their range.
Not math to figure out their range.
Not removing a random percentage to factor ramp up speed.
I wanna know my EXACT range, to include ramp up.
I can work around the flight patern of the target,
But seriously....Let me see my range the same way turret pilots can.
Tired of having to add numbers and divide a random percentage every time I wanna know my range.
Let me just click info and know my range. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
52
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Posted - 2011.10.14 00:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Once they implement this, people like you will start complaining that rats move. Use EFT. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2011.10.14 01:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:Once they implement this, people like you will start complaining that rats move. Use EFT.
I use eft, but it doesn't factor ramp up time for the missiles.
So the range you get from multiplying your flight time and velocity isn't their actual range.
My torps on my golem say they go 64km, but once you facor ramp up time, they actually go closer to 56km.
That's why i'd rather see their ACTUAL range, and not numbers. With the range, factor their ramp up speed so I know the actual range and not their "if they were going full speed from the time of launch" distance.
Like I said with my initial statement, I already know that factoring target flight isn't something that can be done. If they're at 50km going 500m/s, i know that i'm bound to not have enough range on the missiles, but i'd still like to know how far away i can hit a stationary target without guessing. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2011.10.14 01:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Multiplication isn't hard. Neither is figuring out ramp up time. Shave a few kilometers off the final value, and it's close enough. And since there is no situation in which you should be shooting at max range anyway, it's a non-issue. Unless you're shooting a starbase, targets tend to move, and if you're at the max range - ramp up time, theres a pretty good chance your target is going to move a little further away from you, and the shot will be wasted. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 02:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:Multiplication isn't hard. Neither is figuring out ramp up time. Shave a few kilometers off the final value, and it's close enough. And since there is no situation in which you should be shooting at max range anyway, it's a non-issue. Unless you're shooting a starbase, targets tend to move, and if you're at the max range - ramp up time, theres a pretty good chance your target is going to move a little further away from you, and the shot will be wasted.
Actually, torps on my golem a lot of times require me to shoot at max range. Also, if i'm in my stealth bomber a lot of times I'll want to be at max range.
Point still is, why can't they just display their ACTUAL max range and "max range" the same way they show minimal, maximum, and optimal range on turrets.
Turrets have no ramp up time, don't have to chase the target, and are instant damage... The least they can do is list missile actual range. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 02:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'll quote this from what i put on the thousand needles thread...
me wrote:
I would like torps to show my max range factoring in ramp up time.
I know, I know.
"do the math" "knock off a few km for ramp up"
Seriously, I shouldn't have to.
You don't have to make a hypothesis based on subtracting your minimum from maximum and then knocking off a few random km in order to get your optimal turret range.
It says it right there on your d@mn info and that's the actual range you'll get.
Why can't we have that with torps and other missiles?
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Elindreal
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2011.10.14 03:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
well... the simple answer is that due to the delayed nature of applied damage telling you a missiles' "max range" is still useless.
the target is generally moving, so even if you shot at it within your 'max range' the missile still may not hit if the target was moving away. in which case someone will come back here and complain some more about how the max range isn't accurate.
just get closer and shoot. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 03:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Elindreal wrote:well... the simple answer is that due to the delayed nature of applied damage telling you a missiles' "max range" is still useless.
the target is generally moving, so even if you shot at it within your 'max range' the missile still may not hit if the target was moving away. in which case someone will come back here and complain some more about how the max range isn't accurate.
just get closer and shoot.
I however am fully aware of a target's flight speed and distance on my missiles and that it is something that can't be factored.
However, the fact that ramp up time isn't factored in is really annoying.
Doing the math of multiplying flight time by velocity, i get 64km and that is what eft displays. However, even shooting at a stationary target, i get maybe 56km.
That part is really annoying. I know to anticipate flight speed and distance of ships, but when i can't hit a stationary target with what is displayed as my range, it gets old really quick. So basically, i'm losing like 10 km due to ramp up time and that's on a stationary.
Either tell me my range is 56km, or cut out ramp up factors and make my range 64km. Either way I don't care, I just wanna know the range at which i can hit a stationary target. |
Beckett Firesnake
Confrerie des ombres Confrerie de la Lumiere Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.14 07:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Your Range will be modified by the speed of your Target. So it is impossible to give you a precise number.
EFT will give you an approximation taht is enough in most of the case.
By the way it would be interestening to have EFT directly in the game.
I cannot understand why I must have a third party program to create my Loadouts.
The Eve Interface is old. Lot of things should change. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
30
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Posted - 2011.10.14 13:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Beckett Firesnake wrote:Your Range will be modified by the speed of your Target. So it is impossible to give you a precise number.
EFT will give you an approximation taht is enough in most of the case.
By the way it would be interestening to have EFT directly in the game.
I cannot understand why I must have a third party program to create my Loadouts.
The Eve Interface is old. Lot of things should change.
agreed with the eft part.
But back on topic. Like I said, eft displays the very same range I get from doing my math.
I know factoring the flight of the target is impossible to determine, however, It's a lot harder for me to deterimine when I also have to work around ramp up time.
So basically, i'm losing 10km for ramp up time, putting me at 56km, then i have to try and factor the flight of the target which may put me around 54km or 50km.
Either way, this like I said in the last post, is not a matter of how you hit a moving target.
I can't hit a STATIONARY target at what is factored and displayed on eft as my max range.
This is seriously annoying.
Like I've said, turrets get to see their minimal, maximum, and optimal range without doing any math, without having to factor target flight speed, and without having to wait for the damage to be applied.
The least we can get with missiles is for them to display their ACTUAL range on a stationary target. |
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Archetype 66
Pleasure and Pain Ares Protectiva
0
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Posted - 2011.10.14 16:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Look infos on real missiles, they all display a maximum range...
Simple, we need that info. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 20:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Archetype 66 wrote:Look infos on real missiles, they all display a maximum range...
Simple, we need that info.
Yup, not so much need the info, nor do I need the math done for me.
But i would like to know the exact range i can hit a stationary target by multiplying flight time by velocity.
No more of this subtracting a random number that no one really knows crap. |
Sir Substance
Tactical Knightmare
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 01:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
To all the people bitching about this, you sound like my highschool maths teacher.
"You need to learn this, you won't spend your whole life with a calculator in your pocket!"
Oh wait
The truth is that it would be trivial to make the UI do a quick check on your skills and any relevant effects, and calculate the range of your missiles, and just stick it in the info on the launcher, in exactly the same manner that turrets do.
This is a simple thing that should have been done years ago.
Asking people to calculate it in their head, on paper or with out of game tools is just douchebaggery. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
498
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 02:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sir Substance wrote:The truth is that it would be trivial to make the UI do a quick check on your skills and any relevant effects, and calculate the range of your missiles, and just stick it in the info on the launcher, in exactly the same manner that turrets do. GǪthe difference being that the turrets actually show the range, whereas missiles do not really have that value. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Sir Substance
Tactical Knightmare
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 02:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sir Substance wrote:The truth is that it would be trivial to make the UI do a quick check on your skills and any relevant effects, and calculate the range of your missiles, and just stick it in the info on the launcher, in exactly the same manner that turrets do. GǪthe difference being that the turrets actually show the range, whereas missiles do not really have that value. Thats a terrible argument and you know it. The range of the turret is modified by skills and charge types.
You could easily argue that since these days you can only put torps and defenders in a torpedo launcher, torpedo launchers have an effective base range as well.
Why not just make it a thing, and save everyone some headaches? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
498
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 02:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sir Substance wrote:Thats a terrible argument and you know it. The range of the turret is modified by skills and charge types. As is the maximum flight distance of missiles. This doesn't change the fact that turrets interact with range in a vastly different manner than missiles do. In fact, turrets have a range GÇö missiles do not. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 05:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Could do an 'estimate' distance. |
Sir Substance
Tactical Knightmare
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 05:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sir Substance wrote:Thats a terrible argument and you know it. The range of the turret is modified by skills and charge types. As is the maximum flight distance of missiles. This doesn't change the fact that turrets interact with range in a vastly different manner than missiles do. In fact, turrets have a range GÇö missiles do not.
You mean how the effective range of a missile is shorter is the person is moving, in a totally dissimilar way to how the damage of a turret gets lower if the person is moving?
Jesus christ man, how pedantic do you want to get.
Missiles DO have a range. A missiles maximum flight range is (flight speed x flight skills) x (flight time x flight time skills).
I guess its not a range like guns have a range, but then again in real life bullets take time to hit and dont blink out of existence when they go past a certain distance, so your pedantry makes you look like a moron. |
Herring
Fork In Your Face LTD
5
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Posted - 2011.10.15 13:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Personally I think they need to remove the automatic range calculations on turrets; it makes more sense to have to calculate range manually. And it'd go along with the latest trend of functionaltiy reduction.
Seriously though, if they did introduce range calc for missile systems they'd have to address the range bugs they have with rigs, and they won't do that.
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
74
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 14:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have no idea why are people talking about movement of the attacker and target in relation to the missile range. The range of a missile, defined as the maximum distance the missile travels from the moment of launch to when it dissipates in space, is always fixed for a given pilot and ship loadout. Unlike turrets, my target can move out of my range while my missile is in flight, but that doesn't mean my range changes.
For example, let's say that with my skills and my fit my missiles travel at 5 km/s and last in space for 10 seconds. Let's also say that they lose 5 km due to needing to accelerate (this is given by the physics engine, and again unaffected by the movement of anything). This means that a missile will always travel 45 km, not more, not less. If the poor sod sitting 40 km away from me realizes that he's got missiles coming his way, and manages to burn to 50 km away from me, he will not get hit. But that still doesn't make the distance my missiles actually travelled any less (or more) than 45 km! |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
499
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 14:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:I have no idea why are people talking about movement of the attacker and target in relation to the missile range. The range of a missile, defined as the maximum distance the missile travels from the moment of launch to when it dissipates in space, is always fixed for a given pilot and ship loadout. Unlike turrets, my target can move out of my range while my missile is in flight, but that doesn't mean my range changes. It means that the maximum flight distance of your missile bears no connection with, and can't be compared with, the range measurement you see in the overview. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Sir Substance
Tactical Knightmare
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 14:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tippia wrote:It means that the maximum flight distance of your missile bears no connection with, and can't be compared with, the range measurement you see in the overview.
That's not true and you know it, but even if it were true that wouldn't make the information useless.
Knowing your target is definitely out of range can sometimes be more important then being a little unsure that they are in range. For example, when timing the decloaking of a stealthbomber.
In other words, you still have not come up with a compelling, sound and logical argument why this shouldn't be implemented, you are still arguing pedantry. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
74
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 15:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:I have no idea why are people talking about movement of the attacker and target in relation to the missile range. The range of a missile, defined as the maximum distance the missile travels from the moment of launch to when it dissipates in space, is always fixed for a given pilot and ship loadout. Unlike turrets, my target can move out of my range while my missile is in flight, but that doesn't mean my range changes. It means that the maximum flight distance of your missile bears no connection with, and can't be compared with, the range measurement you see in the overview.
It very much can, when shooting either at a stationary target, or a reasonably slow target reasonably within (or well outside) the range.
Current process of determining whether you should get closer to your target before firing the missiles:
1) Check the showinfo of your missiles. 2) Multiply speed * flight time. 3) Add a fudge factor for missile acceleration. 4) Adjust for relative movement of the target.
With the proposed suggestion in place:
1) Check the showinfo of your missiles. 2) Adjust for relative movement of the target. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.15 22:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Tippia wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:I have no idea why are people talking about movement of the attacker and target in relation to the missile range. The range of a missile, defined as the maximum distance the missile travels from the moment of launch to when it dissipates in space, is always fixed for a given pilot and ship loadout. Unlike turrets, my target can move out of my range while my missile is in flight, but that doesn't mean my range changes. It means that the maximum flight distance of your missile bears no connection with, and can't be compared with, the range measurement you see in the overview. It very much can, when shooting either at a stationary target, or a reasonably slow target reasonably within (or well outside) the range. Current process of determining whether you should get closer to your target before firing the missiles: 1) Check the showinfo of your missiles. 2) Multiply speed * flight time. 3) Add a fudge factor for missile acceleration. 4) Adjust for relative movement of the target. With the proposed suggestion in place: 1) Check the showinfo of your missiles. 2) Adjust for relative movement of the target.
Exactly....
Personally, I dont' even care if I still have to do the multiplication.
The major issue here, expecially with short range missiles, is the "fudge factor" that is missile acceleration time.
Now, would I like to be able to see my EXACT range on a stationary target without doing any math....Sure...
However, i'm willing to deal with the math as long as the bs random acceleration time is already factored into my flight speed.
Honestly, this isn't that hard to do and there are 2 options to clear is up.
1) Reduce the flight speed to show ACTUAL range when the multiplication is done, which basically means, reduced DISPLAYED missile range, but not reducing their actual range.
2) Boost missile flight time and speed but do not show the added numbers under the info. These would basically be hidden caculation numbers that the players wouldn't see. It's just there so that missiles will go the actual range that is currently displayed.
Now, when it comes to these 2 choices, it's obvious that missile pilots would prefer option 2 so that, like turret pilots, we'll be able to get the range that we've been displaying for years.
However, any pilot flying a ship with torps has been used to this "fudge factor" for some time now, so if CCP went with option one in order to avoid the QQ of other pilots, we'd be willing to accept this reduction in displayed range, because we already know it's the same range we've always been getting, but now we dont' have to do the fudge math ourselves.
So again, whether you choose the not so good option for missile pilots, or the good for missile pilots option.
It doesn't matter, we're just tired of the fudge.
And in my personal opinion, I'm rather disapointed that CCP never thought to factor acceleration time from the beginning. It was literally the difference of a displayed number that had no actual effect on the missiles themselves.
Seriously, it's a cosmetic number. Either adjust the number, or rework missiles to give us displayed range. Either way, missile pilots will be happy to kill off the fudge factor. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
36
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Posted - 2011.10.16 16:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
bump |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
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Posted - 2011.10.16 16:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sir Substance wrote:The truth is that it would be trivial to make the UI do a quick check on your skills and any relevant effects, and calculate the range of your missiles, and just stick it in the info on the launcher, in exactly the same manner that turrets do. GǪthe difference being that the turrets actually show the range, whereas missiles do not really have that value.
Missiles have "Flight time" and this is why. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
511
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 17:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sir Substance wrote:That's not true and you know it Of course it's true. A ship can be at 15km range, and you can fire your 150km flight distance missile at him and not have enough GǣrangeGǥGǪ
Quote:but even if it were true that wouldn't make the information useless. Sure. Having the max flight distance readily available might be handy, but that doesn't change its very lose connection to the range to target shown in the overview and the concept of range as it applies to turrets.
Quote:In other words, you still have not come up with a compelling, sound and logical argument why this shouldn't be implemented Why would I?
Quote:you are still arguing pedantry. No, I'm arguing mechanics and terminology.
Abdiel Kavash wrote:It very much can, when shooting either at a stationary target, or a reasonably slow target reasonably within (or well outside) the range. GǪin other words, you can't really compare them since you have to pile on all those conditionals to make it work. It's not the same general concept.
Range, as shown in the overview, and turret range is not the same thing as missile flight distance.
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
4
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Posted - 2011.10.16 19:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
I vote you stop posting terrible ideas in the subforum. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2011.10.16 19:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:I vote you stop posting terrible ideas in the subforum.
I vote you stay off the forums unless you have a latitude agree or disagree suggestion.
If you aren't a missile pilot then this suggestion shouldn't even apply to u, and if you're a troll then get back under your bridge and shout your illagit rants elsewhere. |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
4
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Posted - 2011.10.16 19:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:I vote you stop posting terrible ideas in the subforum. I vote you stay off the forums unless you have a good agree or disagree suggestion. If you aren't a missile pilot then this suggestion shouldn't even apply to u, and if you're a troll then get back under your bridge and shout your illagit rants elsewhere.
Assumptions are fun amirite?
My main uses missiles primarily. People have already stated why this idea is terrible.
But really, almost every one of your threads shows a failure to understand fundamental game mechanics.
Do you even play Eve? |
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