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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
450
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 16:21:00 -
[61] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Well done CCP for handing control of the CSM to the CFC and the HBC.
Don't say you weren't warned long ago.
Since I will directly benefit this time around I'm not even going to make too much of a fuss about it right now, but the outcome of this change is so obvious that I can't believe it isn't intended. That alone gives me much amusement.
Seriously this. If you think this is going to get you a more varied CSM, I don't know what to say. I do not see this election ending well on that front. Election system monkeying alone is not going to do it for you, so I hope whatever your plans are for reaching out and getting more voter participation are good.
I do have an honest question, though. The blog mentions that the top twenty eight candidates from the pre-election process get up for election, and what happens if there are fewer than twenty eight. But what happens if there are more - straight top vote getters are in, I assume? This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Besbin
Anguis Sicarios
28
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:26:00 -
[62] - Quote
Raid'En wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:A back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates that a Schulze-STV election with 14 seats and 28 candidates would take over 9 years to compute on a decent PC. How much extra downtime would be needed to make TQ do it?
Actually, yeah! Throw us a loaf of nerd **** on this one! :-D
Also: GREAT work! Baby's really growing up now. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
696
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:29:00 -
[63] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Two step wrote:I wrote a blog post about what this means for wormhole candidates. It is critical to make sure that all candidates ask their supporters to list *all* wormhole candidates at the top of their ballots. Silly Two Step, this change is meant to prevent voting blocs from gaining more influence! What Two step is coordinating is identically equivalent to having a primary, except it takes less coordination and is done during the election instead of prior. It has the added benefit of spare "wormhole party" support (as in, leftover votes that aren't enough to elect a "wormhole" candidate) potentially transferring to secondary preferences. The "wormhole party" doesn't magically gain more votes because of the procedural difference - if they account for 2/14 of the vote they'll get 2 seats, if they account for 1/14 they'll get 1 seat, ect. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
812
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:32:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote:RDevz wrote:Quote:The summit attendees will use a new 2+5 system, with CCP and the CSM working together to pick the 5 hardest working and most feature relevant CSMs being flown to each summit and the final 2 attendees will be the "most preferred" candidates, chosen by reentering the election results into an STV election to select the top 2 candidates. This is a system open to neither abuse nor gaming, with absolutely no chance of someone (you know who you are) trying to use it as a "keep the Goons out of the CSM" tool. On the flip side, we can then bring in some other people than the top seven instead of being locked in to that predetermined selection. Granted we know this will generate discussions about the selection, but the flavor of it will be different from the discussions on the matter in the past. In the past we hated on some CSM members for being useless and yet occupying a spot.
This time we will hate on you for playing favorites.
+1 I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Ripard Teg
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
423
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 16:36:00 -
[65] - Quote
Errr... OK. Granted I've only read this once and it's pretty early in the morning, but let me make sure I understand this.
I have to ask a broad swath of EVE players to vote for me... ...and then ten or so days later, I have to ask them to do it a second time using a different system? ...and this is your plan to make the CSM more open to non-bloc candidates?
My inner Garth is screaming that this is truly an election system designed by CCP...
EDIT: And let me be clear: I have no objection to the STV. But isn't the whole point to the STV to eliminate the need for primary elections? Jester's Trek: wherein I ramble about EVE Online, gaming, and from time to time... life. |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
166
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 16:42:00 -
[66] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:This all looks simpler and more transparent than the previous system. That would be one way to describe it. If by simpler you mean much more complex, and if by transparent, you mean transparently obvious that this will hand the result completely to large voting blocs. Pretty much.
For some reason this blog made me think of great solutions in engineering.
Fear God and Thread Nought |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7749
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:54:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Sgurd Battersea wrote:going up to 5 would be better. People are free to only put in 5 if they wish. Heck, they can only vote for one if that's all the preference they have. The only downside is that they might disenfranchise themselves if noone in their small set of candidates end up having enough support.
Ring-a-ding-ding!
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4538
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 16:57:00 -
[68] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:I look forward to seeing how our team games the system this time around. Why wait? 30 seconds thought reveals that you won't even have to try very hard. Just nominate the 7 candidates you like the most and tell your guys to vote for them in any order that pleases them. Bingo: CFC CSM achieved. well, we could have done complex strategery to try and get one of the top two slots but since you're virtually guaranteed one of them it boils down to "campaign hard" since there's not much else that can be done (because it's the winners of a two-seat STV instead of top two slots) |
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:57:00 -
[69] - Quote
mynnna wrote:I do have an honest question, though. The blog mentions that the top twenty eight candidates from the pre-election process get up for election, and what happens if there are fewer than twenty eight. But what happens if there are more - straight top vote getters are in, I assume?
What I understood is that any candidate that gets 200 primary votes or more goes to the STV part of the election.
Is this going to be a good enough filter and, as Ripard said, should we be using both a two-turn and a STV system combined? I wonder. :sand: -áover -á:awesome: |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7749
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Posted - 2013.02.21 16:59:00 -
[70] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Two step wrote:I wrote a blog post about what this means for wormhole candidates. It is critical to make sure that all candidates ask their supporters to list *all* wormhole candidates at the top of their ballots. Silly Two Step, this change is meant to prevent voting blocs from gaining more influence! What Two step is coordinating is identically equivalent to having a primary, except it takes less coordination and is done during the election instead of prior. It has the added benefit of spare "wormhole party" support (as in, leftover votes that aren't enough to elect a "wormhole" candidate) potentially transferring to secondary preferences. The "wormhole party" doesn't magically gain more votes because of the procedural difference - if they account for 2/14 of the vote they'll get 2 seats, if they account for 1/14 they'll get 1 seat, ect.
I'm not even going to argue with you. Let the results do the talking, and if I'm right, you can buy me a beer in Iceland. If I'm wrong, I'll stay in England and send you a sixer of the best beer I know of.
EDIT: Also, surely you realise that what you are describing is the creation of a voting bloc? Surely? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7749
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:01:00 -
[71] - Quote
mynnna wrote:[quote=Malcanis] But what happens if there are more - straight top vote getters are in, I assume?
Whatcouldpossiblygowrong.gif
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Callduron
187
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:02:00 -
[72] - Quote
Hmm. So an election that struggles to get people to even vote for one candidate is now going to ask us for our top 14? Seems like it's going to be too much form filling for a lot of people. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7750
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:07:00 -
[73] - Quote
Callduron wrote:Hmm. So an election that struggles to get people to even vote for one candidate is now going to ask us for our top 14? Seems like it's going to be too much form filling for a lot of people.
Well those groups which are directed by people who can co-ordinate large numbers to vote for the same list are going to get, effectively, 14 votes per voter. Those unco-ordinated demographics who are interested in maybe one or at most 2-3 candidates and will either not vote for anyone else or who will scatter their votes pretty much at random are going to get effectively 1-3 votes per voter.
Can anyone predict how this will end up?
Anyone?
Bueller? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7750
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:10:00 -
[74] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Two step wrote:I wrote a blog post about what this means for wormhole candidates. It is critical to make sure that all candidates ask their supporters to list *all* wormhole candidates at the top of their ballots. Silly Two Step, this change is meant to prevent voting blocs from gaining more influence! What Two step is coordinating is identically equivalent to having a primary, except it takes less coordination and is done during the election instead of prior. It has the added benefit of spare "wormhole party" support (as in, leftover votes that aren't enough to elect a "wormhole" candidate) potentially transferring to secondary preferences. The "wormhole party" doesn't magically gain more votes because of the procedural difference - if they account for 2/14 of the vote they'll get 2 seats, if they account for 1/14 they'll get 1 seat, ect.
When you get a little free time, go read this. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Kais Fiddler
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:11:00 -
[75] - Quote
Oh boy this is going to be fun. Thanks CCP for introducing a voting system that's easily game-able. I knew you had it in you. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4566
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:13:00 -
[76] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:Malcanis wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:This all looks simpler and more transparent than the previous system. That would be one way to describe it. If by simpler you mean much more complex, and if by transparent, you mean transparently obvious that this will hand the result completely to large voting blocs. Pretty much. For some reason this blog made me think of great solutions in engineering. The problem presented there isn't the right one. A soft saddle could easily make things worse. As long as you're going to be using a saddle, which is pretty much mandatory on a bicycle, a pants based solution is going to be a good one.
On topic: Could candidates post their own voting list suggestions? You know, to get together a strategy to ensure like minded people get elected or unwanted candidates get forced out in favor of less crappy buffer candidates. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
845
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:13:00 -
[77] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Callduron wrote:Hmm. So an election that struggles to get people to even vote for one candidate is now going to ask us for our top 14? Seems like it's going to be too much form filling for a lot of people. Well those groups which are directed by people who can co-ordinate large numbers to vote for the same list are going to get, effectively, 14 votes per voter. Those unco-ordinated demographics who are interested in maybe one or at most 2-3 candidates and will either not vote for anyone else or who will scatter their votes pretty much at random are going to get effectively 1-3 votes per voter.Can anyone predict how this will end up? Anyone? Bueller?
You have my support. As you are one of the few who gets it on the current CSM. I will try to make sure you are on our list for election too! :) Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2633
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
mynnna wrote:I do have an honest question, though. The blog mentions that the top twenty eight candidates from the pre-election process get up for election, and what happens if there are fewer than twenty eight. But what happens if there are more - straight top vote getters are in, I assume? You are misreading the blog. Nowhere does it state that there is a maximum number of candidates. If you get 200 votes, you get on the ballot. However, if less than 28 candidates meet the threshold, it will be lowered so that at least 28 candidates make the final ballot.
To quote the blog: "These votes will then be tallied and candidates that receives 200 or more votes will qualify to be added to the final election ballot. If less than 28 candidates meet this threshold, the next highest ranking candidates will be added until 28 candidates make the final ballot."
Re-elect Trebor to CSM8 GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó My CSM Blog |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2633
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:I have to ask a broad swath of EVE players to vote for me... ...and then ten or so days later, I have to ask them to do it a second time using a different system? ...and this is your plan to make the CSM more open to non-bloc candidates?
Personally, I agree with you. In the context of a STV election, the primary qualifier is of marginal use. It won't really limit ballot size because any group that wants to add candidates can do so. All it will do is eliminate the truly unelectable, and the cost/benefit isn't there. I argued that it was an unnecessary step.
But note, as per my previous posting, that it cannot be used to exclude candidates. Re-elect Trebor to CSM8 GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó My CSM Blog |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
454
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:22:00 -
[80] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:mynnna wrote:I do have an honest question, though. The blog mentions that the top twenty eight candidates from the pre-election process get up for election, and what happens if there are fewer than twenty eight. But what happens if there are more - straight top vote getters are in, I assume? You are misreading the blog. Nowhere does it state that there is a maximum number of candidates. If you get 200 votes, you get on the ballot. However, if less than 28 candidates meet the threshold, it will be lowered so that at least 28 candidates make the final ballot. To quote the blog: " These votes will then be tallied and candidates that receives 200 or more votes will qualify to be added to the final election ballot. If less than 28 candidates meet this threshold, the next highest ranking candidates will be added until 28 candidates make the final ballot."
Can't misread what wasn't explicitly stated, which is why I was wondering. So there's no cap on candidates, just a minimum number. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7751
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:32:00 -
[81] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
On topic: Could candidates post their own voting list suggestions? You know, to get together a strategy to ensure like minded people get elected or unwanted candidates get forced out in favor of less crappy bloc candidates.
Oh I'm sure they will
Oh yes they will. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Konrad Kane
GoonWaffe
69
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:40:00 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Sgurd Battersea wrote:going up to 5 would be better. People are free to only put in 5 if they wish. Heck, they can only vote for one if that's all the preference they have. The only downside is that they might disenfranchise themselves if noone in their small set of candidates end up having enough support.
Thanks for this it wasn't clear in the blog, for a horrible moment I thought I'd need to stack rank all 14. This way I can pick the ones I like or have paid me(PM me for details, or visit the ingame channel :buymyvote)
Looks like good stuff, nice to see a quality gate in there as well. Although the CSM get a lot of guff said about them the ones that work put a lot of personal time and getting more people who have that commitment in the CSM can only be a good thing. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
365
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:41:00 -
[83] - Quote
I am literally typing up 'GoonSwarm: Crushing Pubbies Via Voting and You' right now bring back images |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
365
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:42:00 -
[84] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:I am literally typing up 'GoonSwarm: Crushing Pubbies Via Voting and You' right now
Okay I'm really not because I'm not some midlevel bureaucrat but someone is! bring back images |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4538
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 17:44:00 -
[85] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Dramaticus wrote:I am literally typing up 'GoonSwarm: Crushing Pubbies Via Voting and You' right now Okay I'm really not because I'm not some midlevel bureaucrat but someone is! how did it get in your post if you did not type it :ohdear: |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7751
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:45:00 -
[86] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Dramaticus wrote:I am literally typing up 'GoonSwarm: Crushing Pubbies Via Voting and You' right now Okay I'm really not because I'm not some midlevel bureaucrat but someone is!
*waves frantically hoping for a mention! Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
368
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Posted - 2013.02.21 17:45:00 -
[87] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Dramaticus wrote:I am literally typing up 'GoonSwarm: Crushing Pubbies Via Voting and You' right now Okay I'm really not because I'm not some midlevel bureaucrat but someone is! how did it get in your post if you did not type it :ohdear:
Schrodinger's post bring back images |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Unclaimed.
202
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Posted - 2013.02.21 18:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:Errr... OK. Granted I've only read this once and it's pretty early in the morning, but let me make sure I understand this.
I have to ask a broad swath of EVE players to vote for me... ...and then ten or so days later, I have to ask them to do it a second time using a different system? ...and this is your plan to make the CSM more open to non-bloc candidates?
My inner Garth is screaming that this is truly an election system designed by CCP...
EDIT: And let me be clear: I have no objection to the STV. But isn't the whole point to the STV to eliminate the need for primary elections?
You have to ask 200 people to vote for you in the pre-election process, which is neither a difficult task, not an unreasonable one. In the CSM 7 election, the top-ranking candidate received over 10,000 votes; getting 2% of that should not be difficult at all for any candidate who has any hope at all of winning in a general election, and probably less difficult than getting 200 likes for a hidden post on a section of the forums most neither know exists nor care about. If anything, the CCP-backed candidate pool selection round will make it easier for serious candidates to get on the ballot, since it will presumably be more widely advertised in-game than the old 'likes' system.
The point of the STV is to avoid 'wasting' votes and to generate an elected assembly that is more representative of the preferences of the electorate. It does not do away with the need to generate a viable, finite pool of candidates. Every working large-scale electoral system in the world has a filtering mechanism to prevent hopeless or non-serious candidates from clogging up the ballot. The alternative is to allow anyone with access to a computer and $15 in cash to be on the ballot, which would risk having serious candidates like yourself being lost in a mass of unknown names.
I will point out that the STV can be gamed via exit polling just as easily as a plurality system, especially in future rounds when the formula for generating votes from the ballot rank order becomes known. |
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2013.02.21 18:34:00 -
[89] - Quote
If CCP cannot be talked out of changing the election system (which haven't been implemented yet, if I understood it), then I think this effort is better used developing a system where the votes are carried from the first ballot to the second and allow the voters to invalidate and recast their votes once, when that happens.
It still provides an "integrated primary" for people like the WH community while allowing the voters to cast a simple, one-time, vote. That's an improvement over both what is being proposed (single candidate vote, followed by a multi-candidate one) and what was used last time (hit a like button, or many, then cast a vote).
I still think the whole effort won't result in as much bang for the buck as increasing the visibility and political education of the playerbase at large. And for the record, use a slightly different link on the login page ad, so that you can count how many people reach the voting page through that. My gut feeling says it's close to zero. :sand: -áover -á:awesome: |
Logix42
Sloooooow Motion
120
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 19:20:00 -
[90] - Quote
I applaud the change to the system of who gets to go to the CSM summit, hard work should be rewarded. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE.-á Check out the G-Doc list at http://bit.ly/wdatt or the Eve-áforum post at http://bit.ly/I56ebm |
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