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Nytemaster
The Perfect Storm
0
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Posted - 2013.02.20 03:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
There has been a part of Eve and combat that has been bothering me for quite some time and I believe after ten years its about time we fixed it. CCP got this partly right when they first introduced signature resolution on guns in its first year (because bigger is not always better) BUT it doesn't go far enough. Small ships are just not viable enough and it is about time we make a change which effectively puts them back as an option.
As a fleet sizes increases, the viability for small craft survivability decreases for their opponent no matter the class of ship they are flying. A 10 man frigate fleet can take on a single battleship very well and have no trouble. Add a single battleship, some turrets and a bit of range and now even two battleships become a problem. That second battleship at range merely needs to get lucky on a transversal that has been reduced to near zero and the frigate he is firing at is usually insta-popped. Add a third or fourth battleship all with a bit of range and that 10 man frigate fleet has almost no chance of surviving and has zero chance of winning.
You may be saying, well that is how it is suppose to be. A single battleship should probably lose and one or two or more battleships should probably win. I say, not so fast. The problem is not that the single battleship should lose, it is that when we add more ships to the field at range and with high damage (even at low probabilities) we have a situation where the battle is tilted very quickly.
As a fleet (any fleet) reaches a critical mass, it is no longer viable to bring these small ships as they have effectively (by mechanics) become useless for a fight. This seems blatantly wrong to me. I believe it should not be the sheer numbers which dictate what ships are most viable for a fleet composition but the composition of an enemy fleet in which you engage.
Solution:
To solve this I think it is time that we actually start seeing some damage mitigation against smaller type vessels with large weapons. I am not saying that cruiser sized guns versus a frigate should not do good damage, they should still be effective. What I am saying is that extremely large weapons versus a smaller ship should do little damage. Right now they occasionally get just lucky enough to make the smaller ship platforms unviable for an option under almost all circumstances.
I think it was time we reversed this thought process and force people to create fleets from the ground up. Supporting fleets that do not want to get over ruined by frigate sized squads should have the proper cruiser classes set to defend them.
Running around with battlecruiser classed ships has become the norm because they are maneuverable enough and can do some very good damage at the same time against all class of ships. If battlecruiser weren't so easily abled to dispatch quick ships as well as do great damage to large sized vessels, we might just see the return of true support fleets complete with frigate/cruiser support.
In order to do this correctly, gun mechanics should probably be changed so that small transversals do not hit smaller ships as hard as they do currently or at least not as often. Destroyers could get a new class of weapon somewhere between our current small/medium that do "well" versus frigates. Battlecruisers could get a new class of weapon between our current medium/large where they do "well" versus cruisers but gradually get worse against destroyers and worse yet against frigates.
This change is needed in order to bring back the true support fleet. Otherwise, I'm afraid that our fleet fights beyond that critical mass are always going to be about who can bring the most bodies while filling in the rest with a bit of logistic support. I think we can do better and the Eve player base needs more ways to strategize, not less. I myself would like to use these ships in something other than a frig fleet. |
Liam Inkuras
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
161
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Posted - 2013.02.20 04:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Are you suggesting I not be allowed to alpha pods and shuttles with my Tornado at 50km? |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
893
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Posted - 2013.02.20 06:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's like someone has taken the blap titan thread and shrunk it down to 5% of its size. Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Beatrice Ushiromiya
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.02.20 06:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
So many letters yet so obvious trolling. |
Oska Rus
Solar Storm Insidious Empire
11
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Posted - 2013.02.20 09:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
I can smell tears of cheap friate pilot between lines. |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
107
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Posted - 2013.02.20 10:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
*cuddles tracking disruptor protectively*
It's OK tracky, I won't let the bad man find you
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Makavelia
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2013.02.20 12:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Battle ships are already dead. Even when they were good you still needed to be in a sizeble fleet to cover their obvious limitations.
Avg well fit BS costs some 300+ mil.
Around 15mil SP to fly it very well (to the point its better than using a bc or full skilled cruiser)
This can be killed by 8/10 3mil sp players in M4 frigates at cost 5-8mil or so each. If it cant be killed.. what BS wants to be stuck in low sec with a few frigates 20k orbiting keeping it locked down?. Only a matter of time before a bigger threat drops in that can finish the bs.
That same bs can be ganked very quick by 3-5 cruisers of similar skill and total isk cost as frigates
BC's, 2 decent buffer canes pump out 1200 dps between them, combined those piolits still won't need to total the cost in sp or isk as the single BS piolit.
If we then assume all the players are actual high SP players with good fits.. the bs looks even worse.
Please nerf BS's MORE!!!
Adding more BS to the equasion doesn't help so much. You can simply add more cruisers or more BC's. Again.. they will not require the same isk or sp cost as the BS's in total. This is why you see mass blobs of frigs/cruisers/bc's. Not many people can field a well skilled BS.. and those who can, don't want to risk 3x the cost when they can take a well fitted bc/cruiser with far less engagement limitation anyway.
If anything your idea needs reversed, their should be more reason to use a bs. I think a tactical bs is needed, that has web bonus and plays with medium to small guns instead of large.. a BS sized anti small vessel. OFc, that in turn means pepole will field bigger ships to take out the BS that can take out small ships. With less small ships on the field you as a small ship piolit actualy have less to worry about. If you think about why that may be. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
240
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Posted - 2013.02.20 15:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
The main problem for small ships is web, once you are webbed or especially once double webbed every small ship dies very fast. Since there is no counter to web the only way for small ships to survive is to stay out of web range which however makes them vulnerable to good tracking medium to large guns on the one side and on the other side reduce the dps of most frigates to almost zero.
Solution: Add anti-web rigs or modules.
For example an low slot anti-web module could reduce the effectiveness of a web by 30%. So if such a module is fitted a web with 60% slow down would only slow you down by 40%. Two webs of 60% would then not slow you down by ~80% but rather by just ~45% which makes surviving much easier. If you think this is not enough, then you just fit two or three of these anti-web modules, which however should be stacking-penalizies as usual. |
Cable Udan
The Tuskers
142
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Posted - 2013.02.20 16:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Meditril wrote:The main problem for small ships is web, once you are webbed or especially once double webbed every small ship dies very fast. Since there is no counter to web the only way for small ships to survive is to stay out of web range which however makes them vulnerable to good tracking medium to large guns on the one side and on the other side reduce the dps of most frigates to almost zero.
Solution: Add anti-web rigs or modules.
For example an low slot anti-web module could reduce the effectiveness of a web by 30%. So if such a module is fitted a web with 60% slow down would only slow you down by 40%. Two webs of 60% would then not slow you down by ~80% but rather by just ~45% which makes surviving much easier. If you think this is not enough, then you just fit two or three of these anti-web modules, which however should be stacking-penalizies as usual.
I'd say that any anti-web module should use midslots as it is essentially another EWAR module. It would also stop frigs with more than 3 mids from using EWAR as well as having a counter to being webbed, for the sake of balance.
- Cable http://chasingtheblueflash.blogspot.com/ My Pirate Blog |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
648
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Posted - 2013.02.20 18:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
What if webs did not stack from multiple sources? Webs would still be good, dual-web setups would not be broken, but suddenly small ships don't just stop because half of the enemy fleet happens to have a single web each. As a bonus, target painters might see some action as a way of defending against smaller, faster ships.
Solo fights would not be affected, but this scaling problem described in the OP is fixed.
Thoughts?
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Kane Alvo
Coronis Corporation
20
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Posted - 2013.02.20 19:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'd like to see more "typical" fleet compositions in Eve, but with Battlecruisers being such a comfortable middle ground, it will probably never happen until class roles are more clearly defined with the appropriate buffs and fittings. I've never seen anything like this:
- 5 Frigates
- 2 Destroyers
- 3 Cruisers
- 2 Battlecruisers
- 1 Battleship
It's usually just a single tackle Frigate, maybe an ECM or Logi Cruiser (but usually T3), and the rest are Battlecruisers and Battleships. There's really no point in bringing smaller ships in fleet battles from what I've seen. |
Rezig Huruta
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
122
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Posted - 2013.02.20 23:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:I'd like to see more "typical" fleet compositions in Eve, but with Battlecruisers being such a comfortable middle ground, it will probably never happen until class roles are more clearly defined with the appropriate buffs and fittings. I've never seen anything like this:
- 5 Frigates
- 2 Destroyers
- 3 Cruisers
- 2 Battlecruisers
- 1 Battleship
It's usually just a single tackle Frigate, maybe an ECM or Logi Cruiser (but usually T3), and the rest are Battlecruisers and Battleships. There's really no point in bringing smaller ships in fleet battles from what I've seen.
I agree with you on that one, seeing and participating in more class-diverse fleets would be cool - if there was a use for it. :P |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
899
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Posted - 2013.02.21 00:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
BS suck because of the sig radius/tracking allgorithm and the poor signature resolution and tracking of large guns. Max skilled BS pilots going up against armour T3's or AHACs can have the most TE's possible, use the smalllest available large guns, and still miss at low transversal. I've had it that dual 450 AC's and warriors can't hit a legion which is webbed nine ways to Sunday. Sounds reasonable to me!
Most interceptor frigates are either damp, double-damp or TD fit these days. Add one unbonused TD versus a BS (and here we all admit, no one flies missile BS in PVP) and the frigate is untouchable. Even while webbed. if you were PVEing and you're in a Raven or CNR, you die the instant you are tackled, even by a Velator.
BS's pack drones. However only the Domi or maybe phoon can field enough lights with enough DDA's to make them a threat against frigates and cruisers. If those frigates and cruisers have loki boosts, or are Dramiels, Cynabals or similar, you have almost no chance of using your drones to drive them off. Often, an Incursus can out-tank your drone DPS anyway. Plenty of frigs, AFs and faction frigs can DPS down drones fast enough that they can't even be deployed to drive these frigates off.
Your heavy neuts are effective at capping cruisers and BC's but frigs will just circle you at 500 with a nos running 5 cycles for every heavy neut cycle, and you're boned.
Smartbombs are too cap intensive and self-defeating to rely on them except in massed formations with firewalls, etc. let allone you get into a fight in hisec and get concordokkened because of using a 'smart' weapon which is so ******* dumb it attacks everything.
The only thing BS's have going for them right now is dual XLASB and AAR-LAR(x2?) setups stationcamping market hubs, missioning, and maybe being a Machariel with loki boosts. Unless you deploy dozens. Likely with cap support. As long as PL or Shadow Cartel are snoozing. Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Tsobai Hashimoto
FATAL Warfare Hopeless Addiction
119
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Posted - 2013.02.21 01:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:BS suck because of the sig radius/tracking allgorithm and the poor signature resolution and tracking of large guns. Max skilled BS pilots going up against armour T3's or AHACs can have the most TE's possible, use the smalllest available large guns, and still miss at low transversal. I've had it that dual 450 AC's and warriors can't hit a legion which is webbed nine ways to Sunday. Sounds reasonable to me!
Most interceptor frigates are either damp, double-damp or TD fit these days. Add one unbonused TD versus a BS (and here we all admit, no one flies missile BS in PVP) and the frigate is untouchable. Even while webbed. if you were PVEing and you're in a Raven or CNR, you die the instant you are tackled, even by a Velator.
BS's pack drones. However only the Domi or maybe phoon can field enough lights with enough DDA's to make them a threat against frigates and cruisers. If those frigates and cruisers have loki boosts, or are Dramiels, Cynabals or similar, you have almost no chance of using your drones to drive them off. Often, an Incursus can out-tank your drone DPS anyway. Plenty of frigs, AFs and faction frigs can DPS down drones fast enough that they can't even be deployed to drive these frigates off.
Your heavy neuts are effective at capping cruisers and BC's but frigs will just circle you at 500 with a nos running 5 cycles for every heavy neut cycle, and you're boned.
Smartbombs are too cap intensive and self-defeating to rely on them except in massed formations with firewalls, etc. let allone you get into a fight in hisec and get concordokkened because of using a 'smart' weapon which is so ******* dumb it attacks everything.
The only thing BS's have going for them right now is dual XLASB and AAR-LAR(x2?) setups stationcamping market hubs, missioning, and maybe being a Machariel with loki boosts. Unless you deploy dozens. Likely with cap support. As long as PL or Shadow Cartel are snoozing.
I have to agree with Trinket here 100%, and if you think no one uses frigs then you should do a short stint in FW......frigs, AF and dessies are about 80% of ships, solo or in fleets |
Nytemaster
The Perfect Storm
0
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Posted - 2013.02.21 01:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oska Rus wrote:I can smell tears of cheap friate pilot between lines.
I was popping pod cherries before you were even born son. |
Nytemaster
The Perfect Storm
0
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Posted - 2013.02.21 01:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kane Alvo wrote:I'd like to see more "typical" fleet compositions in Eve, but with Battlecruisers being such a comfortable middle ground, it will probably never happen until class roles are more clearly defined with the appropriate buffs and fittings. I've never seen anything like this:
- 5 Frigates
- 2 Destroyers
- 3 Cruisers
- 2 Battlecruisers
- 1 Battleship
It's usually just a single tackle Frigate, maybe an ECM or Logi Cruiser (but usually T3), and the rest are Battlecruisers and Battleships. There's really no point in bringing smaller ships in fleet battles from what I've seen.
This. |
Nytemaster
The Perfect Storm
0
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Posted - 2013.02.21 01:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:BS suck because of the sig radius/tracking allgorithm and the poor signature resolution and tracking of large guns. Max skilled BS pilots going up against armour T3's or AHACs can have the most TE's possible, use the smalllest available large guns, and still miss at low transversal. I've had it that dual 450 AC's and warriors can't hit a legion which is webbed nine ways to Sunday. Sounds reasonable to me!
Most interceptor frigates are either damp, double-damp or TD fit these days. Add one unbonused TD versus a BS (and here we all admit, no one flies missile BS in PVP) and the frigate is untouchable. Even while webbed. if you were PVEing and you're in a Raven or CNR, you die the instant you are tackled, even by a Velator.
BS's pack drones. However only the Domi or maybe phoon can field enough lights with enough DDA's to make them a threat against frigates and cruisers. If those frigates and cruisers have loki boosts, or are Dramiels, Cynabals or similar, you have almost no chance of using your drones to drive them off. Often, an Incursus can out-tank your drone DPS anyway. Plenty of frigs, AFs and faction frigs can DPS down drones fast enough that they can't even be deployed to drive these frigates off.
Your heavy neuts are effective at capping cruisers and BC's but frigs will just circle you at 500 with a nos running 5 cycles for every heavy neut cycle, and you're boned.
Smartbombs are too cap intensive and self-defeating to rely on them except in massed formations with firewalls, etc. let allone you get into a fight in hisec and get concordokkened because of using a 'smart' weapon which is so ******* dumb it attacks everything.
The only thing BS's have going for them right now is dual XLASB and AAR-LAR(x2?) setups stationcamping market hubs, missioning, and maybe being a Machariel with loki boosts. Unless you deploy dozens. Likely with cap support. As long as PL or Shadow Cartel are snoozing. I have to agree with Trinket here 100%, and if you think no one uses frigs then you should do a short stint in FW......frigs, AF and dessies are about 80% of ships, solo or in fleets
Why do you think the hellcat fleet was so popular (pulse fitted Amarr battleships)? They have tremendous tracking and range (if required) which can hit smaller vessels easier. Factional warfare is a different animal altogether than most of the combat you see. This is partly due to the fact that certain classes of ships are excluded from capturing systems. These fleets are totally different than your typical 0.0 fleet in which this original post was intended to address. |
Amyclas Amatin
EVE University Ivy League
6
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Posted - 2013.02.21 02:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote:As a fleets size increases, the viability for small craft survivability decreases for their opponent no matter the class of ship they are flying. A 10 man frigate fleet can take on a single battleship very well and have no trouble. Add a single battleship, some turrets and a bit of range and now even two battleships become a problem. That second battleship at range merely needs to get lucky on a transversal that has been reduced to near zero and the frigate he is firing at is usually insta-popped. Add a third or fourth battleship all with a bit of range and that 10 man frigate fleet has almost no chance of surviving and has zero chance of winning.
You need better frigate tactics. Learn to spread your e-war instead of running in like a mob.
EDIT: This noob flies frigates. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
960
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Posted - 2013.02.21 09:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nytemaster wrote:To solve this I think it is time that we actually start seeing some damage mitigation against smaller type vessels with large weapons
I'd just like to chime in that this is already true of missile combat. A torpedo isn't going to do any more good against a speedy little no-sig frigate than a rocket launcher would. So in a sense this is already implemented in game... just for one weapon system.
This makes me wonder about Caldari fleet compositions. In order to keep from getting over-run by frigates I'm assuming that they need to actually mix their weapons up more than average, as chucking cruise missiles at Rifters is both silly and needlessly expensive (the Caldari may not be religious but wasting ISK is still their highest sin). Compare that to the OP's theoretical all BC/BB fleet that needs only space themselves apart far enough to put any frigates into a crossfire and they don't need to change their weapons layout in the slightest.
It's interesting to think about, at least, regardless of what the trolls thus far think. EvE Forum Bingo |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
127
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nytemaster wrote:
You may be saying, well that is how it is suppose to be. A single battleship should probably lose and one or two or more battleships should probably win. I say, not so fast. The problem is not that the single battleship should lose, it is that when we add more ships to the field at range and with high damage (even at low probabilities) we have a situation where the battle is tilted very quickly.
because the battle getting tilted really quickly doesn't happen at all when the 20 frigates happen to be stealth bombers.
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Makavelia
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Yeah, it realy makes sence to buff frigates more... i mean I'm sure to jump in my BS to go take on frigates that can perma lock me down at range then escape me should they completely noob it up and get into web range. Good plan.
If you take the smallest ships to a blobfest.. try to ''brawl'' then get dual webbed and poped FFS ;p.... can you realy expect something else.
To add something constructive.
It would be a nice concept if frigates had a local module to passively damped enemy ships targeting range on you (and you alone). Bare wit hme here.
The idea being, you can orbit at say 30km (this would brake the BS's lock on you) and then quickly dive in to do some dps. Before the BS can lock you again you get back out of web range and dive to 30k again to brake his lock on you.
Call it the ''hit and run'' concept. And with that.. should you get webbed and within range of enough ships to pop you then fking right you should get poped. |
Trinkets friend
Minmatar-Amarr Man-Boy Love Association
908
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Posted - 2013.02.22 00:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
grumpycat.jpg
A module which makes it impossible for a BS to lock an individual frigate, used by all frigates, results in a BS unable to lock any frigates, ever.
Believe me, I have seen what a gang of 6 Maulus' can achieve against, viz. Sleipnir, Cynabal, Naga, RML caracal. it is almost OP, except for the times the frigs orbit to close to, eg, the RML Caracal. But anything which get pinned by 6 maulus alone is dead. If those 6 Maulus pilots are actually half decent, they can pick off those ships, resulting in a lulsy set of killmails.
The way I see the BS problem, there's no need to further buff frigates. Your advantage taking on a BS in a frigate is your maneuverability. If you didn't fit a long point and aren't capstable, then you shouldn't engage a BS and CCP shouldn't be asked to change the game mechanics to make up for your inability to pick fights.
Likewise, it is arguable that BS's needn't be able to do DPS against frigs with their main guns. They needn't be able to run down frigates like Machariels can do. But they certainly should be able to alpha a frig who muffs his transversal on approach, and should definitely be able to do some damage against a AHAC/T3, versus absolutely no damage at the moment.
Pilot skill - in picking the fight, in the very least - should be a factor. Right now, it is not. Thus BS's go unused.
BS's need; - decent but not stupid OP active tanking options - decent main gun DPS which is effective against its common threats - and these days this includes cruisers, because if you pigeonhole BS's into a Napoleonic 'ships of the line' theorem they will continue to go unused - versatility in ewar and cap warfare fittings. No one uses 8 gun hislot BS for PVP that doesn't involve gate/station timers for a very good reason - decent secondary armament to threaten small tacklers.
Right now, the way EVE's tracking formula goes, and how hideous module llagg is, you'd be mad to attempt to take a BS out for a spin. And thus, no one does, short of having links and a fleet backing you up (ie; you're bait). Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Oska Rus
Solar Storm Insidious Empire
11
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Posted - 2013.02.22 09:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
If you would remove some frigate disadvantages and make it comparable in big an small battles to BS you would also have to increase frigate price to be comparable to BS. |
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