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Just Another Toon
University of Caille Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2011.10.11 10:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Along with the changes, will there be a skill reset for Fighter / Carrier skills. Not being funny, but you are drastically changing the dynamic of carriers, and as such should offer the ability to reimburse those skills, since they don't come overnight. Since sub caps are going to be at the forefront of combat, and you are making carriers no longer economically viable (in both cash and skill time investment) it seems you should offer the ability to restat the now wasted skill points in other areas.
Thanks.
No they are not, the role of carriers changed a few releases ago - they are support, logistic ships not offensive ships...sorry... |

Lucas Kell
Lost Enterprises... SOLAR WING
5
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Posted - 2011.10.11 11:03:00 -
[62] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=169936#post169936
Reimbursement won't be needed if this is stuck to. This will mean fighters will still actually be able to hit things. Hurrah! |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
452
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Posted - 2011.10.11 11:11:00 -
[63] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Reimbursement won't be needed if this is stuck to. This will mean fighters will still actually be able to hit things. Hurrah! As the numbers show, most of them actually would anyway GGv the problem isn't really the proposed change, but that there are inherent imbalances between the fighters that get massively amplified by the change.
If they fixed those imbalances, the change could probably go through without causing that many problems. GGvGGvGGv GG#If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GkmvGkm you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GG% GGv Karath Piki-a |

Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
75
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Posted - 2011.10.11 11:31:00 -
[64] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:No... Translation: I paid for a crap load of gametime and now it's all been wasted.
so you played this game to fly capital ships?
 [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |

Mirime Nolwe
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8
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Posted - 2011.10.11 11:36:00 -
[65] - Quote
Decisions like this should be done with time and a lot of ponderation. CCP since i started playing have done things like this, people complain about x being underpowered and they buff it, then, people complain that is overpowered and after a few months nerf it to oblivion. That's not the way of balancing the game, things should be tested and analised properly.
0.0 balance stuff is a good example of CCP trial and error procedure. Every ship should have their role in the field and that can't change every time people complain, anyway if some specific type of ship needs a adjustment that should not compromise their role in the field (taking in consideration their cost of production and time investment skill wise and other factors). |

Deviana Sevidon
Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
34
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Posted - 2011.10.11 12:41:00 -
[66] - Quote
Wasted? Carriers and Supercaps are not removed from the game, but they have different roles right now.
Oh and as a player with Carrier 5 Fighter 5 and Fighter Bombers 5: LoL@ Whiners. |

David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
57
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:52:00 -
[67] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:No... Translation: I paid for a crap load of gametime and now it's all been wasted. so you played this game to fly capital ships? 
actually there are many many characters that were dedicated capital only pilots. |

David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
57
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:52:00 -
[68] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:No... Translation: I paid for a crap load of gametime and now it's all been wasted. so you played this game to fly capital ships? 
actually there are many many characters that were dedicated capital only pilots. |

WisdomLikeSilence
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
52
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Posted - 2011.10.11 13:52:00 -
[69] - Quote
If you dont like it, unsub. I unsubbed 2 accounts after the anom nerf. Just wasnt worth having them anymore.
Thats what CCP suggest you do: remember they monitor actions, not opinions. UNSUB.
UNSUUUUUUUUB!
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Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
109
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Posted - 2011.10.11 15:03:00 -
[70] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:They are fundamentally changing the workings of carriers so they are no longer viable. They can't expect people to put that much time into a skill expecting one thing, then move the goal posts. The reimbursed skill points when learning skills got removed, so they should reimburse these now that carriers are being removed.. they fundamentally changed the Eos a few years ago, and they didn't reimburse anyone.
You didn't buy a 2nd account, for a ship which can't dock, for a character which can ONLY fly one ship due to this inability to dock, train for 2 years to get into said ship.
I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are not completely worthless. You could switch out of your Eos into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so. It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.
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Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
92
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Posted - 2011.10.11 15:32:00 -
[71] - Quote
It looks like the Fighter nerf part of the expansion won't happen (DEV comment in DEV blog discussion) And as far as giving carriers a job besides logistics. Well I have an idea which should do a very nice job of it if I can get some feed back and maybe a comment from CCP. Please see my signature and post in that thread.
And if this is considered a cross post , well sorry about that. Carriers of old (Fighters vs Bombers and Fighter Screens) |

Arrynoss
Nex Exercitus Raiden.
4
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:08:00 -
[72] - Quote
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:Grimpak wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:They are fundamentally changing the workings of carriers so they are no longer viable. They can't expect people to put that much time into a skill expecting one thing, then move the goal posts. The reimbursed skill points when learning skills got removed, so they should reimburse these now that carriers are being removed.. they fundamentally changed the Eos a few years ago, and they didn't reimburse anyone. You didn't buy a 2nd account, for a ship which can't dock, for a character which can ONLY fly one ship due to this inability to dock, train for 2 years to get into said ship. I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. You could switch out of your Eos into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so. It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.
Fighter Bombers are not being removed, nor are you going to be able to lose the ability to field 5-10 of them less. Just because you can no longer log off if the enemy locks you up as a precaution, this doesn't mean your ship is useless. They will still do the highest output of DPS in the game and retain their anti capital role.
You are just going to have to be more careful as losing FB's is going to sting when you cannot pump more out. SC's have had their day as the king of the hill. Now it's time that some balance is introduced and no doubt everyone's going to find a new ship to spam and we'll all complain about that for the next year.
If you think that a Nyx is going to be worthless then sell your Nyx and sell your character. You have the mechanics to do so and no one is stopping you. The proposed changes on paper look well constructed and with decent justification behind each. |

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
18
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
They're not completely obsolete by any means,
and besides.. technological change makes all sorts of RL skills and equipment investment rather obsolete all the time.
In general, the more specific your expertise, the more likely you'll need to be constantly learning just to remain useful with your past knowlege giving you some perpective in how to employee new skills certainly (that is more your experience as a player, not a character).
Programmers need to learn new languages or updates to their language.. they don't get reimbursed for their study of one computer language when another becomes the new standard they need to know to stay useful if things shift against what they know. Orthopedic surgeons need to learn to use new equiupment and new procedures to continue to be the best in their field.. while their general knowledge of medicine , poise in an operating room etc is still hugely pertinent, they might suddenly find that their steady hand needs to be complimented with new learning in the use of lasers and camera and joystick driven orthoscopic devices.
TLDR they more skills you have at the most advanced levels, the more risk you shoudl know you're taking at the specialized levels. |

Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
8
 |
Posted - 2011.10.11 16:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Along with the changes, will there be a skill reset for Fighter / Carrier skills. Not being funny, but you are drastically changing the dynamic of carriers, and as such should offer the ability to reimburse those skills, since they don't come overnight. Since sub caps are going to be at the forefront of combat, and you are making carriers no longer economically viable (in both cash and skill time investment) it seems you should offer the ability to restat the now wasted skill points in other areas.
Thanks.
Read the EULA.
That is all.
|

baltec1
88
 |
Posted - 2011.10.11 17:28:00 -
[75] - Quote
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:Grimpak wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:They are fundamentally changing the workings of carriers so they are no longer viable. They can't expect people to put that much time into a skill expecting one thing, then move the goal posts. The reimbursed skill points when learning skills got removed, so they should reimburse these now that carriers are being removed.. they fundamentally changed the Eos a few years ago, and they didn't reimburse anyone. You didn't buy a 2nd account, for a ship which can't dock, for a character which can ONLY fly one ship due to this inability to dock, train for 2 years to get into said ship. I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. You could switch out of your Eos into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so. It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.
You trained for a FOTM and have now, rightly, had your god mode taken away from you. You deserve nothing as super will still be used, they simply wont be able to steamroll everything before them and can be countered by more than just a bigger blob of supers.
HTFU |

Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
10
 |
Posted - 2011.10.12 05:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:Grimpak wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:They are fundamentally changing the workings of carriers so they are no longer viable. They can't expect people to put that much time into a skill expecting one thing, then move the goal posts. The reimbursed skill points when learning skills got removed, so they should reimburse these now that carriers are being removed.. they fundamentally changed the Eos a few years ago, and they didn't reimburse anyone. You didn't buy a 2nd account, for a ship which can't dock, for a character which can ONLY fly one ship due to this inability to dock, train for 2 years to get into said ship. I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. You could switch out of your Eos into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so. It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy. You trained for a FOTM and have now, rightly, had your god mode taken away from you. You deserve nothing as super will still be used, they simply wont be able to steamroll everything before them and can be countered by more than just a bigger blob of supers. HTFU
^^This. +1.
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Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
10
 |
Posted - 2011.10.12 05:36:00 -
[77] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I do want fairness, and how is it fair that people that have spent near on a year training should suddenly have enything they trained for taken away? I'm not sayng don't make the changes, and I'm not saying changes aren't needed, all I'm saying is people should be given the chance to reuse those wasted skillpoints. Are you to just going to follow my every post trolling like mad? I mean not that I don't like having my own personal fan club, but you must have better things to do with your time.
It's not CCP's, or anyone else's problem that you chose to "min/max" a flavour of the month that everyone knew was grossly over-powered, and now have to deal with the consequences of its' finally being brought into something resembling balance.
EVE is ALL about weighing the consequences vs. the rewards of a given choice, and adjusting for same as they may change in a dynamic, evolving universe.
You have made a choice, now you must reap the consequences.
How do you say "Harden The F Up" in Russian?
The nearest equivalent I get is:
"-y-&-i-&-&-G-&-&-&-i-& -&-G-+-&-+-+-G-+-+-+-i-+-o-& -&-& -&-&-&-G-`!"
And, once again: Read the EULA--where it is stated explicitly that CCP bears you no obligation whatsoever in just such a situation.
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Altal Po
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
 |
Posted - 2011.10.12 07:02:00 -
[78] - Quote
Quote: I'd be surpirsed if anybody but the biggest alliances with caps on their ship replace will take them out now.
.. indeed. For comparison "A total of 22 aircraft carriers in active service are maintained by ten navies" in the Real World. In a world of some 6 billion 'users', compared to Eve's some 300k. Agreed, those 300k are immortal rockstars of the Eveverse, but still - it feels like half of them own a carrier or few. And in the real world these are used as centerpieces of fleets with quite a huge support ranging from destroyers to battleships and what not.
You have had a chance to use supercaps solo and wtfpwn everything left and right, up and down. Hopefully it's not possible anymore after the changes. But you can still use them. Even solo. It's just a littlebit harder and riskier now, as are all good things in life. <3
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Soldarius
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
12
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Posted - 2011.10.12 07:52:00 -
[79] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You trained for a FOTM and have now, rightly, had your god mode taken away from you. You deserve nothing as super will still be used, they simply wont be able to steamroll everything before them and can be countered by more than just a bigger blob of supers.
HTFU
This.
And to be fair, I didn't particularly agree with the fighter nerf, either. I also believe that supers should be able to field a full flight of 20 fighter and fighter-bombers. Kind of silly if they can't.
I would like to see some base stats on thsoe that are crap, and then bonuses to the relevant ships that when combined with skills, make them useful and relevant in their intended role.
I"m feeling a little more conciliatory now. So I will say that I can understand being frustrated with the changes if you're a super pilot. But what did you expect was gonna happen? You pay for OP stuff, its gonna get nerfed. You can still fly the stuff. It just won't omgwtfbbqpwn everything in sight.
/thread
"How do you kill that which has no life?" |

Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
5
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Posted - 2011.10.12 10:06:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I'm now not going to be gettign the product I paid for.
Wrong, when you give money (or what ever denomination you used to pay your account) to CCP you are given in exchange a permission to log on the game. And that's exactly what you're getting.
As already said, adapt or die. If you decide on the latter please contract me your stuff I'll put them to good use, promise.
Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
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Signal11th
85
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Posted - 2011.10.12 10:09:00 -
[81] - Quote
From CCP Tallest -
"In this thread, I've read several very good reasons why the fighter change is a bad idea. You are right. Fighters should stay the way they are. The change would be unfair for carriers."
Was posted somewhere else so I don't know how recent or valid this is?
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-a I came second and won a toaster. |

Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
5
 |
Posted - 2011.10.12 10:13:00 -
[82] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Also, the sig radius of fighters isn't being changed AFAIK.
Their sig RADIUS never was, only their sig RESOLUTION. And even that change is being retracted if dev posts are to be believed.
Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |

Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
1
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Posted - 2011.10.12 10:24:00 -
[83] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Of course it diminishes the ability! You've got fighters with sig radiuses the size of battleships, and absolutely no defence against smaller ships. They are in no way going to be worth the year of skill investment or the cash to buy them.
How many roebels is that?
Lucas Kell wrote: I'd be surpirsed if anybody but the biggest alliances with caps on their ship replace will take them out now.
Guess its time for u guys to burn, all your anger should be directed towards your friends that exploited the overpowerd spazeshipz; because of them they get nerfed
Lucas Kell wrote: Skills in this take time, and time costs money.
How many hours of botting is that?
Lucas Kell wrote: I'm now not going to be gettign the product I paid for.
So u play this game to fly a carrier?
Lucas Kell wrote: If you bought a sat nav for your car, and they changed it so it didnt give directions anymore you'd want a refund. All I want is a refund. To be honest, if they want to give me 12 plex instead of the skillpoints I'm happy with that too.
Let me fix your sentence:
If you bought a carrier for anomaly farming, and they changed it so it didnt give good isk anymore you'd want a refund. All I want is a refund. To be honest, if they want to give me 12 plex instead of the $$ I'm happy with that too |

non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
43
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Posted - 2011.10.12 11:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
Dirk Magnum wrote:People have been complaining about Supercarriers since their current form existed only on Sisi. There was a big problem that many people spotted and pointed out repeatedly, but CCP went ahead anyway, and the OP supercarrer was unleashed upon Tranquility. If all of your enjoyment in the game comes from flying something that's clearly unbalanced then that's just too bad, I suppose. I thought when they put the new super carriers on sisi. They thought they were too strong and nerfed the changes on sisi. Then heaps of people complained "we liked the way supercarriers were when they first came to sisi pls change them back to that". So CCP returned them back to the original supercarriers they had on sisi to begin with. Then months later after CCP had put them in the game. Everyone was flying supercarriers cause they killed everything.
It's a bit odd how people complain about things before they even see how the new changes work out. |
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