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To mare
Advanced Technology
39
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Posted - 2012.12.19 02:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
anyone played around with cruise missile recently? are they worth something in pvp now or still useless? |
BadAssMcKill
Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army
25
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Posted - 2012.12.19 03:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
No if anything they've become even more useless now that GMP and rigs affect torps Starships were meant to fly~ |
To mare
Advanced Technology
39
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Posted - 2012.12.19 03:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
bleh didnt they got any boost at all ? ecxcept for the removal of t2 penalties? |
Alara IonStorm
3890
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Posted - 2012.12.19 03:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
To mare wrote:bleh didnt they got any boost at all ? ecxcept for the removal of t2 penalties? Furies are a bit more accurate and do a tiny bit more Dmg while Precision now do as much T1 Cruise Missiles.
A good buff for my Raven / Navy Scorp for PvE. With 3 Rigors and a Painter I could hit NPC Battleships for full Fury Damage which is higher then Faction Ammo, now with 3 Rigor's alone I can hit full for even more Damage. The Precision buff helps with dealing with those elite Frigates for when they have a hate on for Drones.
3 Rigor's however do not transfer well to PvP when there are plenty of good gun choices. The Typhoon with 5 Launchers and a Drone Bay big enough to hold 5 Heavies and room for Neuts has always made it a Torpedo only kind of boat and that hefts the entirety of current T1 Battleship Cruise Missile use falls onto the Raven's lopsided shoulders and it falls short around the edges.
When they get to the Raven for balancing perhaps they might turn the old bird around for Cruise Missiles either by adding a 7th launcher or keeping the 6 Launchers only and buff Damage. I would like to see 4 lows and 7 mids personally.
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To mare
Advanced Technology
39
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Posted - 2012.12.19 03:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:To mare wrote:bleh didnt they got any boost at all ? ecxcept for the removal of t2 penalties? Furies are a bit more accurate and do a tiny bit more Dmg while Precision now do as much T1 Cruise Missiles. A good buff for my Raven / Navy Scorp for PvE. With 3 Rigors and a Painter I could hit NPC Battleships for full Fury Damage which is higher then Faction Ammo, now with 3 Rigor's alone I can hit full for even more Damage. The Precision buff helps with dealing with those elite Frigates for when they have a hate on for Drones. 3 Rigor's however do not transfer well to PvP when there are plenty of good gun choices. The Typhoon with 5 Launchers and a Drone Bay big enough to hold 5 Heavies and room for Neuts has always made it a Torpedo only kind of boat and that hefts the entirety of current T1 Battleship Cruise Missile use falls onto the Raven's lopsided shoulders and it falls short around the edges. When they get to the Raven for balancing perhaps they might turn the old bird around for Cruise Missiles either by adding a 7th launcher or keeping the 6 Launchers only and buff Damage. I would like to see 4 lows and 7 mids personally.
pretty much what i expected a 7 mid 4 low would be a good start also it would be cool to remove at least 1 of the high in favour of something else |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
991
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Posted - 2012.12.19 03:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cruise are still totally useless. |
1600 RT
0
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Posted - 2012.12.19 04:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
i think cruise missile are quite good per se, its just they dont have any game application outside pve |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2012.12.19 08:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
so you are using T2 launcher, right?
The CN versions have a better ROF then the T2 Versions and much higher space for CMs, so you do not need to reload so often.
Has anybody tested the difference between T2 missiles in T2 launcher and T1 missiles in CN launcher? Are the CN launcher worth the investment, when you can use T2 launchers? |
To mare
Advanced Technology
39
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 08:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:so you are using T2 launcher, right?
The CN versions have a better ROF then the T2 Versions and much higher space for CMs, so you do not need to reload so often.
Has anybody tested the difference between T2 missiles in T2 launcher and T1 missiles in CN launcher? Are the CN launcher worth the investment, when you can use T2 launchers?
my question was more about pvp than pve and in pvp using CN launcher is just out of my budget. but even for pve i think rage missile beat CN missile in CN launchers for BC and above if you use correct rigs |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5529
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Posted - 2012.12.19 09:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
To mare wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:To mare wrote:bleh didnt they got any boost at all ? ecxcept for the removal of t2 penalties? Furies are a bit more accurate and do a tiny bit more Dmg while Precision now do as much T1 Cruise Missiles. A good buff for my Raven / Navy Scorp for PvE. With 3 Rigors and a Painter I could hit NPC Battleships for full Fury Damage which is higher then Faction Ammo, now with 3 Rigor's alone I can hit full for even more Damage. The Precision buff helps with dealing with those elite Frigates for when they have a hate on for Drones. 3 Rigor's however do not transfer well to PvP when there are plenty of good gun choices. The Typhoon with 5 Launchers and a Drone Bay big enough to hold 5 Heavies and room for Neuts has always made it a Torpedo only kind of boat and that hefts the entirety of current T1 Battleship Cruise Missile use falls onto the Raven's lopsided shoulders and it falls short around the edges. When they get to the Raven for balancing perhaps they might turn the old bird around for Cruise Missiles either by adding a 7th launcher or keeping the 6 Launchers only and buff Damage. I would like to see 4 lows and 7 mids personally. pretty much what i expected a 7 mid 4 low would be a good start also it would be cool to remove at least 1 of the high in favour of something else
The Raven has plenty of potential DPS; what it really needs it what pretty much all of the original Caldari ships need; powergrid. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
44
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Posted - 2012.12.19 11:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The Raven has plenty of potential DPS; what it really needs it what pretty much all of the original Caldari ships need; powergrid.
cruise raven generally doesn't have a pg issue.
Cruise is just screwed over for lots of reasons that will are hard to change.
Speed is one. It jsut does not fit into many fleet schemes that really like more instant hit. Its got the deeps to shoot big targets and not have to worry about radii and all that crap. Problem is in say a fleet of 10 apocs, 10 pests, and 10 ravens....unless utter fail them 20 gun boats will drop the unlucky primary real fast.
This is why even thougb rokh while underpowered is the caldari favored fleet bs. It can fire instant hit from 100+km's. So it dps although smaller is actually applied. Vice raven where enough guns on primary....most of the raven dps goes up in smoke as its still in the air on target death.
Not seeing this change. Hell it wasn't until drake train rolled into town this same argument applied to hml (I saw the pre train days, tons harbs and canes if nice left the handful of drakes that ran some scraps to get on the km for tiny bits of damage). Unlike drake however, I don't see apoc pilots rushing to raven in droves to start raven train.
And well sr fleets....rolling with blasterthrons why would you not run torps. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
189
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Posted - 2012.12.19 11:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Why would you want cruise missiles for pvp ? BS usually use SR weapons in pvp.
@Zan : cruise missiles on the Raven have the exact same speed than old heavy missiles on the Tengu. Why would it be a problem on the Raven but not on the Tengu ? |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
44
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Posted - 2012.12.19 12:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Why would you want cruise missiles for pvp ? BS usually use SR weapons in pvp.
@Zan : cruise missiles on the Raven have the exact same speed than old heavy missiles on the Tengu. Why would it be a problem on the Raven but not on the Tengu ?
100mn works alot better on the tengu. Unlike 100mn gun based t3 your ship speed does not self induce tracking issues. Plus better sig tanking.
Or you'd have to ask a tengu pvp pilot...personally I am x-trained for loki as well and tbh I'd rather roll in 425 II Ac's blazing if I had the choice for pvp. Hell I x-trained to minmatar to get away from missiles to be honest. Rokh I learned to like over time but I wanted to see how green the grass was on the pther side (and since before naga release, wasn't much sub bs gun fun to be had). |
Maeltstome
The Burning Red
151
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Posted - 2012.12.19 12:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
To mare wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:To mare wrote:bleh didnt they got any boost at all ? ecxcept for the removal of t2 penalties? Furies are a bit more accurate and do a tiny bit more Dmg while Precision now do as much T1 Cruise Missiles. A good buff for my Raven / Navy Scorp for PvE. With 3 Rigors and a Painter I could hit NPC Battleships for full Fury Damage which is higher then Faction Ammo, now with 3 Rigor's alone I can hit full for even more Damage. The Precision buff helps with dealing with those elite Frigates for when they have a hate on for Drones. 3 Rigor's however do not transfer well to PvP when there are plenty of good gun choices. The Typhoon with 5 Launchers and a Drone Bay big enough to hold 5 Heavies and room for Neuts has always made it a Torpedo only kind of boat and that hefts the entirety of current T1 Battleship Cruise Missile use falls onto the Raven's lopsided shoulders and it falls short around the edges. When they get to the Raven for balancing perhaps they might turn the old bird around for Cruise Missiles either by adding a 7th launcher or keeping the 6 Launchers only and buff Damage. I would like to see 4 lows and 7 mids personally. pretty much what i expected a 7 mid 4 low would be a good start also it would be cool to remove at least 1 of the high in favour of something else
People constantly flame the raven - it is a massively strong gang PVP bs for large ship fights. Most gangs bring lots of TP's and Webs. You have the most consistent damage (which btw, adds up to about 1000+dps with missiles, and as we all know missile dps is closer in practice to its paper DPS than guns)
Yea, you can't snipe or nano but you can brawl really well. I've flown a raven in PVP situations as far back as 2007 through all the fads (Nos, ECM, Nano etc.) and it's consistently performed excellently for me in real situations. |
Alara IonStorm
3890
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 14:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: People constantly flame the raven - it is a massively strong gang PVP bs for large ship fights. Most gangs bring lots of TP's and Webs. You have the most consistent damage (which btw, adds up to about 1000+dps with missiles, and as we all know missile dps is closer in practice to its paper DPS than guns)
Yea, you can't snipe or nano but you can brawl really well. I've flown a raven in PVP situations as far back as 2007 through all the fads (Nos, ECM, Nano etc.) and it's consistently performed excellently for me in real situations.
Could this really be the same Maeltstome who wrote this?
Maeltstome wrote: Sick of people defending the tempest - it's trash. It doesnt have a role. There are no shisp in the minmatar line-up it does any particular job better than, and combine that with the systematic nerfing of every utility module in the game, it's a terrible mid ground ship.
Now talking about the very, very narrow and specific parameters required to operate the less used Raven effectively over its piers.
Yes you are right about the various advantages of using Torpedo's in certain situations but the ship itself has a narrow envelope of use that lets it barely slip ahead of say the Dominix, Shield Hype, Maelstrom, Megathron and others in the very few situations it is good in.
It could use a little bit of love in the right area's. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
465
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Posted - 2012.12.19 14:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: People constantly flame the raven - it is a massively strong gang PVP bs for large ship fights. Most gangs bring lots of TP's and Webs. You have the most consistent damage (which btw, adds up to about 1000+dps with missiles, and as we all know missile dps is closer in practice to its paper DPS than guns)
Yea, you can't snipe or nano but you can brawl really well.
The funny thing is that this is all basically true, and yet people are still right to criticise the Raven. As Mael says, it can apply brutal DPS, 1100 DPS including drones, to other BS within ~25 km - but that's about it. Start needing some more tank, mobility, additional range or target flexibility and there very quickly becomes a better option available. It's just too one-dimensional for its own good.
Still, recent changes are promising. GMP affecting torps takes explosion radius down to 338 m, greatly increasing the damage applied to BCs and many BS, while removal of the stupid velocity penalty on Jav gives it additional usable range. But the tank is still too flimsy, five medslots just isn't enough to get a decent BS-scale shield buffer, without a resist bonus.Giving it another medslot as suggested would help greatly. A bit more PG would be nice too, although you can already get 6x torps and MWD on with some left over for LSEs and some medium utility mods. |
Maeltstome
The Burning Red
151
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 15:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Maeltstome wrote: People constantly flame the raven - it is a massively strong gang PVP bs for large ship fights. Most gangs bring lots of TP's and Webs. You have the most consistent damage (which btw, adds up to about 1000+dps with missiles, and as we all know missile dps is closer in practice to its paper DPS than guns)
Yea, you can't snipe or nano but you can brawl really well. I've flown a raven in PVP situations as far back as 2007 through all the fads (Nos, ECM, Nano etc.) and it's consistently performed excellently for me in real situations.
Could this really be the same Maeltstome who wrote this? Maeltstome wrote: Sick of people defending the tempest - it's trash. It doesnt have a role. There are no shisp in the minmatar line-up it does any particular job better than, and combine that with the systematic nerfing of every utility module in the game, it's a terrible mid ground ship.
Now talking about the very, very narrow and specific parameters required to operate the less used Raven effectively over its piers. Yes you are right about the various advantages of using Torpedo's in certain situations but the ship itself has a narrow envelope of use that lets it barely slip ahead of say the Dominix, Shield Hype, Maelstrom, Megathron and others in the very few situations it is good in. It could use a little bit of love in the right area's.
The tempest cant do 1100 DPS to >20km and still sport 500DPS + tank (non ASB) - all this without any tank rigs or any kind of implant. And the envelope you speak of is the same one that megathrons exist in. Fly the raven and forget all notions of using a microwarp drive and suddenly it becomes a whole lot more useful. |
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