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Juil
Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.
23
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Posted - 2011.10.06 23:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
The topic states it really, if CCP is large enough and Ugly enough that it can afford to do a hair pin turn around and promise us all this junk for winter that is FIS.. then why oh why can't they: Assign resources to the FIS side AND keep resources on the WiS side.
I mean lets face it CCP's basically announced that they have done what they always do, release a feature not finished and then walked away from it rather then finishing it.. And yet we know that apparently CCP has had a 'change of heart' and that Hilmar has seen that Eve is 'central' to the survival of the company (cause it pays the bills).. Ok, then prove it, leave the people working on Incarna working on Incarna and Assign other people to bring out the Bug fixes and 'updated' content for the Flying In space side of the game.
In other words, pool your developers for 4 months and finish BOTH.
If you actually read through the forums and remove the 'we hate incarna' , 'we love ccp' etc etc etc etc over the past several months you'll see that this is what a lot of people have been worried about even more.. That once again after YEARS of teasing us about a product addition in this case walking in stations..and social interactions.. CCP would drop the ball and leave it 'abandoned' I don't know about the rest of you but this Cycle of half finished expansions is part of what has me wondering what the point of continuing to play eve is?
So that the winter expansion can be half finished to?
and the Summer one after that?
and the winter one after that?
INCARNA was meant to be more then a Glorified Tech Demo and yet now we have Hilmar and Zulu admitting hey that's all it is and that's all your getting.. INCURSION before it.. well half it's features didn't come out until half way through INCARNA (these forums included), and oh look.. we can continue to go this way almost all the way back to the start, as people point out there have been 2 'completed' expansions.. and both where under duress...
So ok.. if they have enough 'people' to develope, delivere and make a 'great' expansion by Christmas.. then reassign some of the resources given to DUST and WoD, leave the FIS people where they are, and have your so called experts at this whole avatar side work on incarna.. after all WoD especially will benefit from it, everything you learn making the avatar sandbox of Eve helps with your World of Darkness game.
Failing all of this here's a shocking idea for you.......
rather then just introducing new 'crap' all the time, how about introducing new TOOLS for the players to use to make the GAMEPLAY they want.. like the sandbox is meant to allow. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
89
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Posted - 2011.10.06 23:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dude, they saw the numbers and those were not pretty. Live with it. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
34
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Posted - 2011.10.06 23:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Must appease the masses... |
Tristan North
The Scope
5
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Posted - 2011.10.06 23:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Dude, they saw the numbers and those were not pretty. Live with it. They just can't deliver WiS in time.
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Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
115
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Posted - 2011.10.06 23:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
FIS means more PVP means mining becomes more profitable tbh also FW hasnt been touched for years.... sad really |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
26
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Posted - 2011.10.06 23:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Dude, they saw the numbers and those were not pretty. Live with it.
I wonder about the number of hours the avatar wizards are now spending on fixing 0-Sec unfixable issues or ship-balancing... Because surely they are super-talents can do everything.
Hey, Incarna guys, can you at least send me a poster of the latest sparely clad vampire chicks you design while NOT working on ANY part of EVE, please? |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
90
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aidan Brooder wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Dude, they saw the numbers and those were not pretty. Live with it. I wonder about the number of hours the avatar wizards are now spending on fixing 0-Sec unfixable issues or ship-balancing... Because surely they are super-talents can do everything. Hey, Incarna guys, can you at least send me a poster of the latest sparely clad vampire chicks you design while NOT working on ANY part of EVE, please?
Have you got any idea about how the entire feature development process works? All the departments that get involved? Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Vanilla Twilight
Your Slit is Mine Federation
18
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
its simples, because WiS sucks and it never have to been existed. Burn Incarna, burn everything that remembers incarna, burn monocles and NEX Store... |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
26
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Working in a global IT department myself, even if we play with more cash than probably involved here and not gaming related: Yes, I know that there is usually specialization involved and I would not entrust our basis team with configuration, to be honest. |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
26
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vanilla Twilight wrote:its simples, because WiS sucks and it never have to been existed. Burn Incarna, burn everything that remembers incarna, burn monocles and NEX Store...
I'd join in burning NEX Store as it is though. ;)
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Juil
Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.
24
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aidan Brooder wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Dude, they saw the numbers and those were not pretty. Live with it. I wonder about the number of hours the avatar wizards are now spending on fixing 0-Sec unfixable issues or ship-balancing... Because surely they are super-talents can do everything. Hey, Incarna guys, can you at least send me a poster of the latest sparely clad vampire chicks you design while NOT working on ANY part of EVE, please?
Some one who see's the point of this..
The Walking in Station / Avatar side of the game as people keep trying to scream is the same technology being used by World of Darkness....
And given that people have been 'screaming' that resources are being pumped into WOD and DUST and not eve.. then how is asking for the WOD team to be assigned to FINISH Incarna as it was meant to be.. stuipid?
People are screaming and crying over more then just Flying in space.. so those who think it is just FIS need to DEAL with it just as much.
Incarna is just the final thing on a long list that has tipped the player base into a frenzy, why?
Because once again we had been promised something and that 'promise' wasn't delievered on.. not only at the start of the expansion cycle.. but also at it's end of summer 'deadline' when all the Captains Quarters should have been released paving the way for the Establishments.
So again if CCP has enough resources to suddenly just 'drop' everything and change to FIS and deliver EVERYTHING they are claiming they can, then shift enough resources to DO BOTH. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2011.10.07 00:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aidan Brooder wrote:Working in a global IT department myself, even if we play with more cash than probably involved here and not gaming related: Yes, I know that there is usually specialization involved and I would not entrust our basis team with configuration, to be honest.
IT department do not deal with development. Development at the most basic level involve three departments. Development itself, testing and QA. The guys that develop the WiS assets are but a small fraction in the whole WiS development. The other departments are the Technetium moons of development because they are shared between all projects. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Yume Mei
THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD.
0
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
[quote=Juil]The topic states it really, if CCP is large enough and Ugly enough that it can afford to do a hair pin turn around and promise us all this junk for winter that is FIS..
I stopped reading there, I believe most people play an internet spaceship game for the internet spaceships. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
90
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Juil wrote:Aidan Brooder wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Dude, they saw the numbers and those were not pretty. Live with it. I wonder about the number of hours the avatar wizards are now spending on fixing 0-Sec unfixable issues or ship-balancing... Because surely they are super-talents can do everything. Hey, Incarna guys, can you at least send me a poster of the latest sparely clad vampire chicks you design while NOT working on ANY part of EVE, please? Some one who see's the point of this.. The Walking in Station / Avatar side of the game as people keep trying to scream is the same technology being used by World of Darkness.... And given that people have been 'screaming' that resources are being pumped into WOD and DUST and not eve.. then how is asking for the WOD team to be assigned to FINISH Incarna as it was meant to be.. stuipid? People are screaming and crying over more then just Flying in space.. so those who think it is just FIS need to DEAL with it just as much. Incarna is just the final thing on a long list that has tipped the player base into a frenzy, why? Because once again we had been promised something and that 'promise' wasn't delievered on.. not only at the start of the expansion cycle.. but also at it's end of summer 'deadline' when all the Captains Quarters should have been released paving the way for the Establishments. So again if CCP has enough resources to suddenly just 'drop' everything and change to FIS and deliver EVERYTHING they are claiming they can, then shift enough resources to DO BOTH.
This is called Armchair-development tbqh.
Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Juil
Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.
26
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:FIS means more PVP means mining becomes more profitable tbh also FW hasnt been touched for years.... sad really
And I agree FW as it was left was and is a Joke, but you can't say that the same Development Team working here is going to be the same team that was on incarna.
Basically every one is yay'n oevr what appears to be 'Team BFF gets a few more resources so we can pretend we are fixing things'
Ok that's fine.. give team BFF their resources.. but get those resourcse from WOD or DUST not from the existing INCARNA team. |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
26
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Aidan Brooder wrote:Working in a global IT department myself, even if we play with more cash than probably involved here and not gaming related: Yes, I know that there is usually specialization involved and I would not entrust our basis team with configuration, to be honest. IT department do not deal with development. Development at the most basic level involve three departments. Development itself, testing and QA. The guys that develop the WiS assets are but a small fraction in the whole WiS development. The other departments are the Technetium moons of development because they are shared between all projects.
I'd surely love to join the IT department you work in, my friend.
I program ABAP and JAVA code where necessary, configure our ERP system, pre-test on DEV server, watch QA testing on Q server and finally also validate on production server. You hold hand all the way along. Add to that I do help with business blue-printing, cos they have no clue about... e.g. Brazilian tax laws and your crazy invoicing regulations. ;)
Please tell me where I find that paradise you are talking of. |
Milamara
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Juil wrote:I mean lets face it CCP's basically announced that they have done what they always do, release a feature not finished and then walked away from it rather then finishing it... You mean like COSMOS (even I have lost track after all these years what COSMOS currently is and what it is currently supposed to be) and EVE Gate?
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Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
90
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aidan Brooder wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Aidan Brooder wrote:Working in a global IT department myself, even if we play with more cash than probably involved here and not gaming related: Yes, I know that there is usually specialization involved and I would not entrust our basis team with configuration, to be honest. IT department do not deal with development. Development at the most basic level involve three departments. Development itself, testing and QA. The guys that develop the WiS assets are but a small fraction in the whole WiS development. The other departments are the Technetium moons of development because they are shared between all projects. I'd surely love to join the IT department you work in, my friend. I program ABAP and JAVA code where necessary, configure our ERP system, pre-test on DEV server, watch QA testing on Q server and finally also validate on production server. You hold hand all the way along. Add to that I do help with business blue-printing, cos they have no clue about... e.g. Brazilian tax laws and your crazy invoicing regulations. ;) Please tell me where I find that paradise you are talking of. But I agree the gaming industry is different. Still, avatar geeks != space geeks. Simply put.
Exactly, you just proved my point =) Development takes up more than one department, and these people almost never do "one thing" only inside the company. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Juil
Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.
26
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yume Mei wrote:Juil wrote:The topic states it really, if CCP is large enough and Ugly enough that it can afford to do a hair pin turn around and promise us all this junk for winter that is FIS.. I stopped reading there, I believe most people play an internet spaceship game for the internet spaceships.
That's fine didn't ask you to come into this thread to begin with did i? ;)
as pointed out by many including Hilmar.. eve is meant to be MORE then FIS.
On the Armchair Development:
Of course it is... I'm not working for CCP and neither are you.. I'm just pointing out that based on what CCP claims, Every one who's been whinning and screaming for the past 3 months Claim and the CSM claim.. CCP has a 'massive' pool of 'employee's' working on 3 projects:
Eve
World of Darkness
Dust.
Now according to all you who have been bagging Incarna, Incarna is all just 'test beds' for World of Darkness.. and all the 'Eve Resources' have been funneled into it..
Also according to all of the posts on the forums, team BFF was all that was left developing the 'real eve'
well apparently Zulu/Hulmar's giving team BFF resources cause FIS is getting it's lovely fixes.. in WINTER.
Incarna was the SUMMER expansion and it's NOT FINISHED.. surprise surprise.
So using forum posters logic....
CCP has massive amounts of people working on WOD and Dust and none on Eve..
There for..
If i take from WOD and DUST and Assign to Eve then everything can be done!
that is the logic people have been sprouting on these forums, and what I basically put up there..
but heaven help if some one suggests that CCP is not assign 'enoguh' to eve still.. because no I forgot F.I.S is being done again lets go kiss CCP's rear and hump the CCP pole.. because it doesn't matter that we just got left with a Quarter Done expansion.. that SHOULD be able to be finished by it's team while others focus on the other aspects of the game to appease a bunch of people who have no vision of what eve was meant to be. |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
28
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Aidan Brooder wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Aidan Brooder wrote:Working in a global IT department myself, even if we play with more cash than probably involved here and not gaming related: Yes, I know that there is usually specialization involved and I would not entrust our basis team with configuration, to be honest. IT department do not deal with development. Development at the most basic level involve three departments. Development itself, testing and QA. The guys that develop the WiS assets are but a small fraction in the whole WiS development. The other departments are the Technetium moons of development because they are shared between all projects. I'd surely love to join the IT department you work in, my friend. I program ABAP and JAVA code where necessary, configure our ERP system, pre-test on DEV server, watch QA testing on Q server and finally also validate on production server. You hold hand all the way along. Add to that I do help with business blue-printing, cos they have no clue about... e.g. Brazilian tax laws and your crazy invoicing regulations. ;) Please tell me where I find that paradise you are talking of. But I agree the gaming industry is different. Still, avatar geeks != space geeks. Simply put. Exactly, you just proved my point =) Development takes up more than one department, and these people almost never do "one thing" only inside the company. So you cannot develop both WiS and FiS concurrently without one taking something away from the other.
No, I did not. Cos even though I can also script Python, PERL and Ruby and know my HTML & PHP, we have nice people doing that, ya know? They are specialists where I could only fumble.
AND for the love of God: NEVER let me draw an Avatar! It would be .. Something Awful. ;)
We sometimes work on the same project in a global sense. Ultimately we work on separate projects with the same goal and different names. Like FiS and WiS. |
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Yume Mei
THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD.
0
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Seeing as how Incarna is content free, ignoring it will have very little overall effect, if any, on gameplay. Going back and working on the old issues that have been neglected for years will help more than having a larger doll house. |
Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
166
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Posted - 2011.10.07 00:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
because eve needs exclusive attention for a while. Features which are already there need maintenance, fixes, etc.
CCP just realised that they can't do all at once. again: it didn't work. They where so certain that it will work that they even forced us to use incarna which wasn't yet ready.
Is this really so hard to understand? Its a software project, you can't add stuff to a project endlessly without fixing/rewriting/refactoring already existing stuff. CCP has not the budget of companies like Blizzard where they can do risky things like adding WOW graphics to diablo and simply expect that the critical mass will buy it.
having CQs in eve right now is technically a good thing. Being able to test a new system in production is unique in business. They can tweak things, test new stuff and convince users indirectly to upgrade the craptops. The introduction of this experimental feature however was "suboptimal" as we all know.
Once the quality of eve's features is restored they certainly focus on incarna again. Eve was not ready for incarna. Nobody would complain otherwise.
CCP is doing the right thing, really. They realised (in time) that they drove eve almost against the wall. You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
66
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Posted - 2011.10.07 11:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Obviously your plan is brilliant. Just do both. Why didn't anyone think of that?
CCP tried doing both - the game that worked, FiS, got left behind. Incarana, the technological new toy, has no game. Obviously they don't have the resources to work on both at once.
Incarna isn't even a feature yet, its a toy. It has no use other than being pretty. Read back through any of the Incarna blogs about WiS content. Are there even half-baked details of what will be included? No. "Establishments" is about it. That's not more gameplay, that's another iteration of the market, but with paper-dolls. For Incarna to be a feature worth bragging about, it needs content... things to do... places to go and interact with a purpose... conflict to erupt and be resolved... spying to be done... deals to be made.
Just walking around and typing /dance or /pose all day is not gameplay, It's fluff. And hell, we can't even do that much yet.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
256
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Posted - 2011.10.07 11:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
I blogged about this today but I'll re-print the relevant bits here.
Winter 2011 is Coming
1.) If it's not been made clear by the numerous blogs and dev postings, CCP basically had to scrap their August release planning because, "What is this ****... I don't even... we are ******..."
2.) As a result, they spent the last 3-4 weeks not only changing course but re-shuffling resources and prioritizing what they could do with the time and resources left before December.
3.) While all this was going on, CCP also had to unfuck their public relations which meant letting certain people speak up and telling others to shut up. In the end, Hilmar decided to just stomp on it all and attempt to right the ship from the top down. Granted, this should have been done months ago, but at least it's done now and in a way that leaves CCP no room at all for error.
4.) What we will get for Winter will be in preparation for much larger / bigger / shinier stuff come next year. While all of the 'fixes' and updates are going on in the trenches, the Art department and such can go ahead and start working on NEW STUFF that can be coded and mechanically integrated next year.
5.) The next CSM summit is going to focus on whatever 'new stuff' CCP decides to go with for Flying in Space (FiS) and they've said they intend to keep the CSM and the players in the loop as they move toward that.
In order for Incarna to have any chance whatsoever, there needs to be solid, interesting game play. That doesn't exist, nor has the CSM seen anything on the horizon that looks to change that. Since there never appeared to be a solid idea about what 'establishments' would bring to EVE, CCP basically postponed a 'feature' that didn't exist in the first place.
Incarna has the potential to be amazing but in terms of importance, for example when allocating resources, it pales, or should pale, in comparison to spaceships. Certainly now, and probably for a long time to come as well. In the end, you can take Incarna out of EVE, but you can't take spaceships out of EVE. Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
28
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Posted - 2011.10.07 11:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
It is fascinating. Look at the list of the "features" they now want to concentrate on. There is no feature. There are some small corrections to gameplay, whatever you want to interprete into it.
In my opinion: They are just using the (loud) FiS only faction vs the WiS/FiS faction so they can get a very smallish package out and even get cheered for it. Get real. And get Hilmar a handkerchief. All those onions he probably had to squeeze writing that Dev blog sounding sincere.
The truth is: Either because their WiS ressources are used elsewhere (and I still want a vampire chick poster for free!) or because their plan simply was too aggressive, they cannot deliver. That is understandable. Deadlines sometimes need to be adjusted. But to use the friction in the player base to hide this fact is simply not cool. |
Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
4
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Posted - 2011.10.07 11:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Once FiS is in a decent state they can devote all the time they want to WiS, until then it's gotta be put on hold. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude. |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
9
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Posted - 2011.10.07 11:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Damned if the do, and damned if they don't ....
I am pretty sure that if they tried to do both FiS and WiS at the same time for the winter expansion both will suck.
Focusing on FiS makes perfect sense to me. Especially if they want to keep their loyal customer base. |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
28
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Posted - 2011.10.07 12:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Damned if the do, and damned if they don't ....
I am pretty sure that if they tried to do both FiS and WiS at the same time for the winter expansion both will suck.
Focusing on FiS makes perfect sense to me. Especially if they want to keep their loyal customer base.
I think they will truly be damned if what they bring for FiS now sucks. Not delivering improvements to FiS AND WiS will unite the playerbase in unprecedented rage.
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Afale II
Space Pony Farm
4
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Posted - 2011.10.07 12:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aidan Brooder wrote:Lexmana wrote:Damned if the do, and damned if they don't ....
I am pretty sure that if they tried to do both FiS and WiS at the same time for the winter expansion both will suck.
Focusing on FiS makes perfect sense to me. Especially if they want to keep their loyal customer base. I think they will truly be damned if what they bring for FiS now sucks. Not delivering improvements to FiS AND WiS will unite the playerbase in unprecedented rage.
i play since 2004 on and off with different char. there was always issues with FIS
its impossible that this bugfix "expansion" will fix the game
-Nostalgia is not as good as it used to be- |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
9
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Posted - 2011.10.07 12:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Afale II wrote:its impossible that this bugfix "expansion" will fix the game
Nothing will ever "fix" this game. It is work in progress - as any MMO I am sure.
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