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psycho freak
Snuff Box
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 09:55:00 -
[151] - Quote
Posting in a some whineing *** got hotdroped thread
but be real grow a pair and stop fuc#king crying for nurfs go play a single player game
also show us on the doll were the bad man touched you with his hotdrop |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
2117
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 11:01:00 -
[152] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:So explain something to me.
How does nerfing titans help with stopping major alliances from projecting their forces around new eden?
A major alliance on the move is like locust it will kill anything in its path making them more destructive when they are forced to fly somewhere instead of bridging right into a target system. It means more time for the defenders to mount a defense. More opportunities to pick of stragglers, do bombing runs for example. It also means there will be far less pilots traveling to them because not many will be willing to go that same bridge distance via gates for very long.
A bridge is basically one jump per bridge, right. So if one of your buddies said he has a battleship tackled 2 jumps away, you and every one of your buddies will jump in a ship and zip over. Now if he said he has one tackled.... 20 jumps away. Suddenly there will be far less guys going to his aid, if any at all. Now that is if it via gates. Toss in a titan bridge or two and those 20 jumps turn into 2 jumps. So all those guys who are only willing to put forth effort for two jumps, can effectively translate it to 20 jumps with the same amount of effort.
Titan bridging is one of several power projectors and they act like amplifiers. Now the area you have influence to project your power might extend to 20 gate jumps, but it will only feel like 2 gate jumps because of the bridge. The problem only escalates further and further, because NAP trains/power blocks do not keep hostiles 2 gate jumps away. Where the front line lays is determined by time to project your force and everything between you and the front line is most likely blues. So instead of being surrounded by blues for 2 systems out... they surround themselves with blues 20 systems deep. It is called a buffer. Or as power blocks like to say, 'friends'. Which is not unheard of either, but they still server as a buffer and in itself another power projector amplifier.
Like I said before, null has at least two dozen things wrong with it that need fixed. So don't buy into people chiming in with doom and gloom threats of a wasteland that one change will do, because someone made a suggestion that is one piece of the puzzle to fix null and the rest of this game. One of the other things that should be addressed is there is currently no down sides to having blues. Aside from lack of targets and being a disgrace on a game that is supposed to be about PvP, there is no reason to look at your neighbors yard and want to screw them over to take it for yourself.
Just have a look back at threads and see lazies complaining about 'take gates or too much effort' and such things. Just remember the time to action combined with method of travel I mentioned. Which is why a group with a lot of time can still project force if their method of travel is slow, like gates.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 11:11:00 -
[153] - Quote
What exactly is it that you think the titan is supposed to be?
Think of it in terms of FPS - it's a power weapon, like a rocket launcher in Halo. You don't nerf it, because it's MEANT to be OP.
The titan is a super-cap. What you're proposing would turn it into another freighter, except with big guns, making it completely redundant if you have dreadnoughts.
You have to figure out how to fight it, not call on CCP to change the game mechanics to suit your own personal agenda because you can't handle it yourself. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Misha M'Liena
Rainbow Waffe
1014
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 11:45:00 -
[154] - Quote
This! Oh so much this. Remiel said it greatly.
You have to figure out how to fight it, not call on CCP to change the game mechanics to suit your own personal agenda because you can't handle it yourself.
Basically all i'm seeing is people crying cause they were hotdropped. This is basically a nerf titan bridges cyno's hotdrops whine thread.
Does null need some work, yup, So does fw the new inventory still needs work *yes i know improvements are on the way* low sec high sec, all parts of the game needs tweaks. I said improvements. I didn't say Nerfs...
Misha. Not as innocent as she appears.Gäó ^_^ All your Alice Saki's belong to me. ^_^Gäó *Nom* with your main. Gäó |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
734
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:10:00 -
[155] - Quote
Misha M'Liena wrote:This! Oh so much this. Remiel said it greatly.
You have to figure out how to fight it, Misha.
Except, the way to fight it now is to figure out the passwords to the enemy POS and bump it out. Because titans are rarely put at risk. The fly from POS to POS and are only outside the shield for the time it takes to move from the jump beacon to the shield bubble.
The only time a titan or ten are only put at risk is when an alliance is absolutely sure of overwhelming force. Yeah. Figure out how to fight that.
I don't agree with nerfing hot drop quantity. Let the titan project power, that's what it's for. But I do agree with making titans more vulnerable. They should not be allowed to POS up. |
Wodensun
ZeroSec
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:10:00 -
[156] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Wodensun wrote:So explain something to me.
How does nerfing titans help with stopping major alliances from projecting their forces around new eden?
A major alliance on the move is like locust it will kill anything in its path making them more destructive when they are forced to fly somewhere instead of bridging right into a target system. It means more time for the defenders to mount a defense. More opportunities to pick of stragglers, do bombing runs for example. It also means there will be far less pilots traveling to them because not many will be willing to go that same bridge distance via gates for very long. A bridge is basically one jump per bridge, right. So if one of your buddies said he has a battleship tackled 2 jumps away, you and every one of your buddies will jump in a ship and zip over. Now if he said he has one tackled.... 20 jumps away. Suddenly there will be far less guys going to his aid, if any at all. Now that is if it via gates. Toss in a titan bridge or two and those 20 jumps turn into 2 jumps. So all those guys who are only willing to put forth effort for two jumps, can effectively translate it to 20 jumps with the same amount of effort. Titan bridging is one of several power projectors and they act like amplifiers. Now the area you have influence to project your power might extend to 20 gate jumps, but it will only feel like 2 gate jumps because of the bridge. The problem only escalates further and further, because NAP trains/power blocks do not keep hostiles 2 gate jumps away. Where the front line lays is determined by time to project your force and everything between you and the front line is most likely blues. So instead of being surrounded by blues for 2 systems out... they surround themselves with blues 20 systems deep. It is called a buffer. Or as power blocks like to say, 'friends'. Which is not unheard of either, but they still server as a buffer and in itself another power projector amplifier. Like I said before, null has at least two dozen things wrong with it that need fixed. So don't buy into people chiming in with doom and gloom threats of a wasteland that one change will do, because someone made a suggestion that is one piece of the puzzle to fix null and the rest of this game. One of the other things that should be addressed is there is currently no down sides to having blues. Aside from lack of targets and being a disgrace on a game that is supposed to be about PvP, there is no reason to look at your neighbors yard and want to screw them over to take it for yourself. Just have a look back at threads and see lazies complaining about 'take gates or too much effort' and such things. Just remember the time to action combined with method of travel I mentioned. Which is why a group with a lot of time can still project force if their method of travel is slow, like gates.
So how do you get that titan there?, and its feul?, and its exit cyno?
Its not like you can simply walk into 0.0 and pop a titan, they have to be moved, feuled, brought online for the OP, kept safe for the duration of the OP then have to be feuled again for the exit bridge ect. Theres a whole process for deploying one which can be disrupted at several points.
As it stands now they function a bit like aircraft carriers in the way they allow for power projection and as far as I can tell that was the intent. Theres a substantial SP value asociated with these ships and the modules they run personally I dont see something wrong with them and I think most alliance leadership will take into account a titans ability to project forces far across the map which incidentally also means they are basically cut of from their supply chain. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
176
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:20:00 -
[157] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Misha M'Liena wrote:This! Oh so much this. Remiel said it greatly.
You have to figure out how to fight it, Misha. Except, the way to fight it now is to figure out the passwords to the enemy POS and bump it out. Because titans are rarely put at risk. The fly from POS to POS and are only outside the shield for the time it takes to move from the jump beacon to the shield bubble. The only time a titan or ten are only put at risk is when an alliance is absolutely sure of overwhelming force. Yeah. Figure out how to fight that. I don't agree with nerfing hot drop quantity. Let the titan project power, that's what it's for. But I do agree with making titans more vulnerable. They should not be allowed to POS up.
Doesn't anyone have any kind of strategic ability at all?
So lure it out - give the titan a target. Give your enemy a reason to bring it out, and set a trap.
This is why you fail at titaning - it has nothing to do with the mechanics. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Mirima Thurander
Estrada Dynamics - Exploration and Acquisition
433
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:30:00 -
[158] - Quote
You can clearly see the people who don't understand why it needs hit with the nurf bat.
Power projection in eve is BROKEN, set your auto pilot to the goon capital, now set a way point to the other side of null.
See the amount of jumps that is?
Now throw in a titan and bam its now only 5 to 6 jumps and u have crossed eve, what used to take 45min to an hour now takes 10 mins.
I know what the guys letter is talking about jumping 20 systems over to shoot a structure is SO much more.fun when you have 20 jumps of fighting not 1 titan bridge, 1 fight, 1 bridge home.
And to the people saying L2play noob, yea u fight titans with guns, but u clearly don't see MOST titans are use as nothing more than a means of fast travel. A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:33:00 -
[159] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:And to the people saying L2play noob, yea u fight titans with guns, but u clearly don't see MOST titans are use as nothing more than a means of fast travel.
How about that, some player-created content - using a ship for an unintended purpose. How innovative.
I bet you just wish you'd thought of it first.
But here's the kicker - if they can do it, then guess what??
So can you!!
You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Misha M'Liena
Rainbow Waffe
1019
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:38:00 -
[160] - Quote
@Ptraci, If your going to quote me, Use the entire sentence, not just the part you like best.
@Remiel, Doesn't anyone have any kind of strategic ability at all?
@Mirima, Show me on the paperdoll where the titanbridge touched you? Did you even bother to READ what SmilingVagrant has posted about traveling?
Misha.
*Edit remiel got in ahead of me* I Likes Remiel. Not as innocent as she appears.Gäó ^_^ All your Alice Saki's belong to me. ^_^Gäó *Nom* with your main. Gäó |
|
psycho freak
Snuff Box
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:40:00 -
[161] - Quote
Counter hot drop job done man up or go home
also ccp could you pleaee nurff somthing i dont know what anything will do
yay im with the in crowd now we gona getz you nerffed
bunch whine pansys |
Mirima Thurander
Estrada Dynamics - Exploration and Acquisition
433
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:44:00 -
[162] - Quote
Look mom trolls!
A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
Wodensun
ZeroSec
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:58:00 -
[163] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:The reason The Blob is so effective a weapon is the titan bridge. The Blob is currently the EVE version of the ICBM. It allows for force projection and a delivery of an epic level of force instantly on a scale that is so unbalanced as to be ludicrous. The entirety of an allianceGÇÖs forces can be committed instantly from anywhere within a minimum of (about) 8 light years. Add a few more titans and you can be anywhere in EVE within minutes.
This simply isnt true. Long before you can jump anywhere you need to sort out feul consumption, have your cynos and safes in place. Theres a whole bunch of preperations that need to be made before you can jump anywhere. The clock doesnt start ticking when you press the bridge button. The clock starts ticking long before that when the preperations are made for the OP. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
644
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 13:08:00 -
[164] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:What exactly is it that you think the titan is supposed to be?
This is sad - for a second you almost hit on what the problem with Titans and then you veered off into Crazy Town.
The problem with Titans is that they have no role. They've never had a role. At no point during the Titan's design was a single moment wasted on thoughts like "balance" or "purpose" or "consequence", it was 100% "wouldn't this be awesome?". I doubt any of its designers even thought about what would happen if an alliance fielded multiple Titans, let alone the 30+ you'd regularly see before the Titan tracking nerf. Too many skills needed, too much isk - but the nature of Eve is that everything grows in time. Every day, more pilots get closer and closer to Titan skills simply by nature of skills moving forward. The barrier that once no doubt seemed massive has been rendered trivial.
The nerfs show this as well - they've never been done in keeping with any kind of role, they've been done with curbing whatever new way someone found to make them overpowered as hell this time around. They've had their Doomsday majorly changed three times - once to remove remote AoE doomsday (seriously, how insane that this even existed?) and add a 10 minute immobility period, the second to remove AoE doomsday and replace with single target, and the third to make the doomsday target caps only. None of those changes spell any kind of cohesive role or vision, just fixes to try to make Titans less ridiculous.
So now we get to today. Their capital turret tracking has been nerfed, as has their targeting. Their doomsday is caps only, and comes with a 10 minute mobility penalty. They're still extremely difficult to kill (most are lost due to espionage or pants-on-head pilot error), but so what? They certainly can't be fun to fly. Are we satisfied, though? Nope. They've still got jump portals, which apparently are overpowered as well and need to be removed - not nerfed, but removed outright. The rhetoric has shifted from "Titans are the counter to blobs!" before the tracking nerf to "Titans are now directly responsible for the blobs!" afterwards. In all this mess, nobody can agree just what the **** these things are supposed to be doing.
At this point wouldn't it be better to simply remove Titans from the game? It'd probably be the way to go if there was a way to do it without alienating the living hell out of anyone who invested time and/or money into acquiring one.
Such is the life of a ship class that never should have existed, I guess. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
EternalFlow
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 13:25:00 -
[165] - Quote
Assuming a max skilled titan and the middle of omist (looks right if you draw a line through the middle of the map) as the other side of eve from vfk. 12 jumps and 43k isotopes are needed just to move the titan, you then need enough stront to activate the bridge and ~705k isotopes to get an alphafleet through. So a oneway trip requires 12 cynos, ~750k isotopes and 3-6k stront. At best speed you might do 2mins per jump but from personal experience 5-10 is normal, meaning if you already have all the cynos in place and sufficient fuel stashed along the route your fleet can cross eve in 24-60mins at best.
If you choose to use max skilled carriers and offices that people just pod jump to. You need 7 cynos and 100ish carriers each using 42k topes. Properly fit the carriers can make each jump in under 30s and can easily carry enough fuel for the trip so 4mins and 4.2mil isotopes to cross eve.
So with significant logistical efforts and planning you can quickly move a fleet across eve but this does not look nearly as quick or easy as is being claimed, this also assums nobody decides to harass the fleet as it moves. Is this too fast? I don't know but the setup work cannot be ignore when considering this. |
M1k3y Koontz
Blackened Skies Nulli Secunda
64
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 13:43:00 -
[166] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:Mirima Thurander wrote:The reason The Blob is so effective a weapon is the titan bridge. The Blob is currently the EVE version of the ICBM. It allows for force projection and a delivery of an epic level of force instantly on a scale that is so unbalanced as to be ludicrous. The entirety of an allianceGÇÖs forces can be committed instantly from anywhere within a minimum of (about) 8 light years. Add a few more titans and you can be anywhere in EVE within minutes. This simply isnt true. Long before you can jump anywhere you need to sort out feul consumption, have your cynos and safes in place. Theres a whole bunch of preperations that need to be made before you can jump anywhere. The clock doesnt start ticking when you press the bridge button. The clock starts ticking long before that when the preperations are made for the OP.
So they anchor corprate hangers full of fuel, those are there ALWAYS because that's what titan bridging pos's need, any good bridging pos has a massive pile of stront in a CHA near the titan. And cynos? Again, when you invade somewhere there are always people in leadership circles that have cynos on alts in FRIGATES with a half hour skill trained, logged off in the systems, its not that hard to set up a titan bridge, stop trying to make it sound like it is.
What is the role of a titan? There is none, it had a doomsday (which is almost never used because) they have a bridge. When was the last time a titan was used in a major battle? Probably when PL dropped on a dozen -A- supers, and how did that go? 100+ supercarriers and titans w/ support VS 12 supercarriers w/o support. Nobody uses titans in combat regularly, just as titan bridges. Which are OP.
Its OK to have an OP ship or module when there's just a few in the game (ie. Adrestias, Frekis, Malices, Vangels etc.) But once you have over a thousand like there are titans, they become a problem. You can't let an OP ship/module get out of hand, like titans and titan bridging has.
Solution: Why don't we just remove Titans, reinburse the SP & isk and call it a day. Should we be able to s**t in someone's sandbox? Yes. Should it take 30 minutes to cross the galaxy to do it? No, that makes it too easy to get 1000 man blobs up and to a target system, whereas gate travel would take ages (especially since the addition of Tidi, which can be caused simply by a blob flying around a system)
Flame away at the guy who wants to get rid of titans.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Mirima Thurander
Estrada Dynamics - Exploration and Acquisition
433
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 13:47:00 -
[167] - Quote
Your leaving out the fact most of this is all ready done. 9/10 times when jumping across eve we bounced from pos titan to the next.
Yea it takes time if you have to set it up but right now I could point u at 18 pos's i personally know house titans for nothing more than fast travel.
The pos's consist of nothing more than storage guns and ewar mods.
Your speaking from have to set up the route every time they chose to use it and the fact is there all ready set up.
And blowing up the pos is pointless they just throw a new one up as soon as your gone. A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2056
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 13:57:00 -
[168] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:Mirima Thurander wrote:The reason The Blob is so effective a weapon is the titan bridge. The Blob is currently the EVE version of the ICBM. It allows for force projection and a delivery of an epic level of force instantly on a scale that is so unbalanced as to be ludicrous. The entirety of an allianceGÇÖs forces can be committed instantly from anywhere within a minimum of (about) 8 light years. Add a few more titans and you can be anywhere in EVE within minutes. This simply isnt true. Long before you can jump anywhere you need to sort out feul consumption, have your cynos and safes in place. Theres a whole bunch of preperations that need to be made before you can jump anywhere. The clock doesnt start ticking when you press the bridge button. The clock starts ticking long before that when the preperations are made for the OP.
Two factors:
1) "A" Titan is fine and I recall when they were individually tracked. A power to be, having one was an important goal for the wanna be prominent alliance. It was also a symbol of power, a bit like those huge medieval cathedrals or castles that shown how powerful a certain town was.
It's the impossible spamming of Titans that creates an issue. The hugely powerful platform is fine if their numbers are compatible with the galaxy's extension. They passed that limit since years now.
2) It's true that setting up a bridge is not trivial and requires time and effort.
But then, why do alliances still do that?
Simple: because despite it's not trivial and requires time and effort, it requires a tiny fraction of the organization, time and effort of actually flying multiple fleets to the destination. Having been in some of those "pre-bridge" large fleets I know how time consuming, error prone and even dangerous it could be. The bridge just removes all of that, exactly like JFs (another dire CCP mistake) remove the risk from logistics and allow for "logistics projection".
EvE should be 10 times as large to really accomodate these advanced mechanics without secondary effects.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Konrad Kane
Dirt Nap Squad
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 14:02:00 -
[169] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:The real question is if jump bridges and cyno bridges are removed.
Then it might take a another hour for a 10,000 person fleet to get to your region but the end result is your still dead.
So in the grand scheme of things has anything really changed ?
What a titan bridge gives you is the ability to re-spawn those players back into the system once they died by simply reshipping and jumping them back into the fight. So it's not just that they allow the moment of lots of people, it's that they can then sustain them there by re-spawning them into the fight when they get podded back.
Game balancing is a hugely difficult job, there isn't a simple answer to this. I don't think trying to price it out of the game will work.
Maybe one of the big issues is that you have a scenario that the Titan is providing a massive battlefield advantage (DPS via. the proxy of bridging) with no risk?
Why not 'simply' reverse the jump mechanic so the ship providing the bridge has to be on the field for other ships can bridge to them and not from them.
For example:
1. cnyo ship in system. 2. Titan jumps to cnyo and then acts a a jump bridge leaving a portal up in the system it jumped from 3. All the other ships jump to the Titan on the field
This way you are putting that asset in harms way. You could apply the same policy to any ship that could bridge if required.
But as I said game balancing is a complex job I'm sure this method has dozens of holes in it and whatever you do you're going to annoy a vocal corner of Eve. Glad I don't have to do it :)
|
Kalissis
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 15:22:00 -
[170] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:[quote=Wodensun]
So they anchor corprate hangers full of fuel, those are there ALWAYS because that's what titan bridging pos's need, any good bridging pos has a massive pile of stront in a CHA near the titan. And cynos? Again, when you invade somewhere there are always people in leadership circles that have cynos on alts in FRIGATES with a half hour skill trained, logged off in the systems, its not that hard to set up a titan bridge, stop trying to make it sound like it is.
What is the role of a titan? There is none, it had a doomsday (which is almost never used because) they have a bridge. When was the last time a titan was used in a major battle? Probably when PL dropped on a dozen -A- supers, and how did that go? 100+ supercarriers and titans w/ support VS 12 supercarriers w/o support. Nobody uses titans in combat regularly, just as titan bridges. Which are OP.
Its OK to have an OP ship or module when there's just a few in the game (ie. Adrestias, Frekis, Malices, Vangels etc.) But once you have over a thousand like there are titans, they become a problem. You can't let an OP ship/module get out of hand, like titans and titan bridging has.
Solution: Why don't we just remove Titans, reinburse the SP & isk and call it a day. Should we be able to s**t in someone's sandbox? Yes. Should it take 30 minutes to cross the galaxy to do it? No, that makes it too easy to get 1000 man blobs up and to a target system, whereas gate travel would take ages (especially since the addition of Tidi, which can be caused simply by a blob flying around a system)
Flame away at the guy who wants to get rid of titans.
Edit: Instant transportation should be an advantage the defenders have, via jump bridge connections, not something that EVERYONE has, like in the Titan bridges.
+1 for that, it is like all ever need to be said in this thread.
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M1k3y Koontz
Blackened Skies Nulli Secunda
66
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 16:57:00 -
[171] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Wodensun wrote:Mirima Thurander wrote:The reason The Blob is so effective a weapon is the titan bridge. The Blob is currently the EVE version of the ICBM. It allows for force projection and a delivery of an epic level of force instantly on a scale that is so unbalanced as to be ludicrous. The entirety of an allianceGÇÖs forces can be committed instantly from anywhere within a minimum of (about) 8 light years. Add a few more titans and you can be anywhere in EVE within minutes. This simply isnt true. Long before you can jump anywhere you need to sort out feul consumption, have your cynos and safes in place. Theres a whole bunch of preperations that need to be made before you can jump anywhere. The clock doesnt start ticking when you press the bridge button. The clock starts ticking long before that when the preperations are made for the OP. Two factors: 1) "A" Titan is fine and I recall when they were individually tracked. A power to be, having one was an important goal for the wanna be prominent alliance. It was also a symbol of power, a bit like those huge medieval cathedrals or castles that shown how powerful a certain town was. It's the impossible spamming of Titans that creates an issue. The hugely powerful platform is fine if their numbers are compatible with the galaxy's extension. They passed that limit since years now. 2) It's true that setting up a bridge is not trivial and requires time and effort. But then, why do alliances still do that? Simple: because despite it's not trivial and requires time and effort, it requires a tiny fraction of the organization, time and effort of actually flying multiple fleets to the destination. Having been in some of those "pre-bridge" large fleets I know how time consuming, error prone and even dangerous it could be. The bridge just removes all of that, exactly like JFs (another dire CCP mistake) remove the risk from logistics and allow for "logistics projection". EvE should be 10 times as large to really accomodate these advanced mechanics without secondary effects.
I dont want to get too far off topic, JFs is another thread (anyone post about that yet? That would be a good discussion)
But, without JFs 0.0 would be strangled because (titan bridge connection here) fleets escorting the freighters through 0.0 would be hotdropped, and logistics would get even tougher. 0.0 Industry needs to be made not only possible, but PRACTICAL before CCP can nerf the JF. Its just not possible with the way 0.0 is now (theres some good articles about fixing 0.0 industry, pretty sure they have been posted on the forums somewhere)
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1823
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 18:04:00 -
[172] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:1) "A" Titan is fine and I recall when they were individually tracked. A power to be, having one was an important goal for the wanna be prominent alliance. It was also a symbol of power, a bit like those huge medieval cathedrals or castles that shown how powerful a certain town was.
It's the impossible spamming of Titans that creates an issue. The hugely powerful platform is fine if their numbers are compatible with the galaxy's extension. They passed that limit since years now. You know how a cathedral is made of many bricks and several stained glass windows?
Now the important goal for the prominent alliance is to a "a titan (blob) (with accompanying supercarrier blob)". Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
52
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 18:07:00 -
[173] - Quote
I approve of the plans of adding mass and capacitor limits to jump bridging along with requiring a gimping module. What would happen if the mod was removed and you had to use the pos variant? |
Adeleda Adoudel
Welp The Monkey
38
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 18:16:00 -
[174] - Quote
Nerf titans! They aren't useless enough yet! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1823
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 18:17:00 -
[175] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:I approve of the plans of adding mass and capacitor limits to jump bridging along with requiring a gimping module. What would happen if the mod was removed and you had to use the pos variant? Then the nullbears need not worry about being hotdropped by a blob, as jump bridges need sov 3, if I remember. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 19:04:00 -
[176] - Quote
What about:
- Titans have to jump with the fleet if they open a jumpbridge. - Titans can be tackled with a normal Warpscrambler
Most big Alliances wouldn't stop hotdroping completly, the tactical advantage is too big to give it up. But it would lead to a lot of Titan losses. And there are way to many titans out there ;) |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
2127
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 19:09:00 -
[177] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:So how do you get that titan there?, and its feul?, and its exit cyno?
Its not like you can simply walk into 0.0 and pop a titan, they have to be moved, feuled, brought online for the OP, kept safe for the duration of the OP then have to be feuled again for the exit bridge ect. Theres a whole process for deploying one which can be disrupted at several points.
Titans are not just piled up into one system and stored there. They are spread out to key systems and mostly just left there. There is actually a lot that the only purpose they fulfill is to bridge. Also I can't help but laugh a bit if you think that they somehow travel with the fleet constantly to the battle. Most of the time it is simply someone logging in their titan alt at a safe spot and warping to the safety of a POS shield and they wait there till everyone is in range and they bridge them. Job done they then warp off to a safe spot and log. Done. Also you have got to be joking about having to fuel up after the bridge part. One of the things pointed out is that titan bridges are by far the most fuel efficient. By an extreme amount efficient. As far as disrupting them at several points while they are used; only on the ultra rare occasion where a titan pilot does not notice scan probes looking for him from a hostile in local does one get burned. Or just as rare; accidentally jumping instead of bridging. While it is funny when those things happen, bridging titans should have more risk involved than a 'miss click'.
Wodensun wrote:As it stands now they function a bit like aircraft carriers in the way they allow for power projection and as far as I can tell that was the intent. Theres a substantial SP value asociated with these ships and the modules they run personally I dont see something wrong with them and I think most alliance leadership will take into account a titans ability to project forces far across the map which incidentally also means they are cut of from their supply chain. Also the ability to project force is limited by the target system you cant jump into cyno jammed systems.
Just because a ship is expensive and or requires a ton of skill points to fly; is no excuse to make it unbalanced and over powered. Another thing to keep in mind is something can be balanced for the time it was introduced into the game and as the game evolves, become unbalanced. Long ago a personal repair module was fine for fights you would encounter would be a couple dozen ships. Now fights are hundreds and sometimes, thousands of players at a time. Which is why buffer tank with logistics is the better choice.
Wodensun wrote:Also the source post for this thread contains some intresting fallacies. I 'll quote one.
"A galaxy of over five thousand systems cannot be vast and epic if it is able to be crossed in minutes. A sandbox/butterfly effect combat experience cannot be made with an GÇ£instant action button.GÇ¥ Wars need to be about strategy, maneuver, and intelligence."
At first glance this makes a lot of sense untill you realise that the preparations for the titan bridge had to be made prior to jumping. Feul has to be made available, the cyno/scout has to make its way to the target system and stay alife long enough to pop the cyno ect.
Fueling a titan is trivial when you take into consideration jump bridges and the fact titans just sip the fuel compared to other means of bridging. Cynos/scouts are no big deal either. They are sprinkled across the appropriate routes logged off and ready to go. And if they die while the titan is bridging, most likely a couple of the ships that were bridged in have a backup cyno fit.
You are trying to make the process of bridging seem like major work and tons of effort involved, but you are highly exaggerating.
There have been suggestions like, increase fuel consumption, force jump after bridging and even not allowing titans to bridge while in a POS shield. All with the intent to add some risk to titan bridging. The big question is how do we add risk to a process that enables force projection without turning titans into a POS ornament? Titans do have other qualities like bonuses, powerful guns/launchers and doomsdays against other capital ships. Should the ability to bridge just be removed from it? Will the titan still feel like it is a complete ship and has a purpose? I do realize there is a lot of players out there whole solely trained for and acquired a titan for only bridging. So I can understand how they must feel if we are talking about nerfing/removing it.
I just want what is best for the game and overall player experience. In the end I put sole blame on super capitals requiring a sole player to use it instead of it being more like an alliance asset that no sole player has to fly per say. I also strongly think they would be risked a lot more if all the risk was not all on the one pilot who has it. Can something like that be changed without regulating super capitals to be only seen dry humping a POS tower? I think so.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1030
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 19:16:00 -
[178] - Quote
I see our solution is still looking for a problem to solve. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2061
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 19:19:00 -
[179] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote: But, without JFs 0.0 would be strangled because (titan bridge connection here) fleets escorting the freighters through 0.0 would be hotdropped, and logistics would get even tougher. 0.0 Industry needs to be made not only possible, but PRACTICAL before CCP can nerf the JF. Its just not possible with the way 0.0 is now (theres some good articles about fixing 0.0 industry, pretty sure they have been posted on the forums somewhere)
Hot dropping is another completely UNFUN (for most) mechanic that imo should go. It's actually the most evident power projection device. Of course it requires planning and ability to execute, but like titan bridge, it requires less resources and drawbacks than doing it the "straight old way" and thus it gives a potent lever that trivializes encounters and the very reason to have a large universe.
Alavaria Fera wrote: Now the important goal for the prominent alliance is to a "a titan (blob) (with accompanying supercarrier blob)".
This is also known as "power creep" and is an evil affecting mature MMOs. Guess what's the cure to that? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2061
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 19:23:00 -
[180] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:I see our solution is still looking for a problem to solve.
Is this a rephrase of:
"I see titans are still looking for a role to fulfill"? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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