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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Ross Sylibus
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
15
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Posted - 2012.11.30 18:59:00 -
[301] - Quote
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:Ross Sylibus wrote: This debate is not at all about the actual function of the bumping mechanic - it is about what kind of game EVE is. If CCP has such a vision they should simply consult it and act accordingly related to this particular issue - if they don't, then broader discussion needs to first occur to determine the answer to that larger question before we continue down this path of tweaking minor details that only serve to embody the actualization of that vision.
... I believe these posts cut to the heart of the matter, and I disagree with moderators removing the content of the first post I quoted. The debate over whether miner bumping should be permissible is a proxy for the debate over what the core principles of EVE, as a social game, are. ... Bumping miners, selling mining permits, and writing entertaining blog posts is, at bottom, a tool used to draw attention to a stark contrast in opinions regarding this question: should players be affected by other players, even when the former do not specifically desire it? I believe the answer must be 'Yes" - this is an essential part of EVE. Miner bumping, like wardecs, should not constitute harassment.
I think this is the key question - it is about non-consensual interaction between players. Miner bumping falls in this category, as does ganking and a variety of other such high sec activities. I honestly believe that considering miner bumping in a vacuum is not the right approach...it is a very small part of the whole and should be considered in light of the overall strategy for where this game is going - it is a piece to be moved/addressed to strengthen the realization of that strategy and not a separate issue to be taken on independently without thought for the overall strategic direction of EVE. |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.11.30 19:01:00 -
[302] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:
You have plenty of options available, yet you blatently choose not to use them. Plus, most of your claimed 'facts' on bumping & suicide ganking are completely false.
Says a Goon lol. The "Facts" most come from your little forum posts and the bumper blogs. So sad you have ran out of good arguments at this point to defend this pathetic exploit. Again im sure you guys love risk free pvp I mean doing it the right way isnt the goon way after all.
Funny how we've been putting these facts in to practice for years now. There is no right way to PvP. You need to get this idea out of your head, because every action in this game is PvP, even mining & mission running. the only one that has run out of arguments is you, since you keep referring to a valid game mechanic as an emploit what it's not. Take active measure to defend yourself & stop playing the victim card.
So how can a solo freighter pilot who is forced to take a choke point on a trade route able to take active measures to protect themselves from your recycled goon bumping alts? ( a known exploit but goons never get punished for it) I cant warp cant shoot can move cant do anything. Again this is 1 ship 1/10 my size able to lock me down with no reprocussions... Ya thats balanced.
Goon logic = no logic just guns and numbers and CCP puppet strings |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.11.30 19:03:00 -
[303] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Ahvram wrote:
Idk let me log on and check my 2 miners ships for Machariel paint scratchs and ill get back to you.... The most infamous bumping is in the ice fields but it happens to the ABC miners all the time.
If anyone has a good solution to make everyone happy im all for it. Like Ive said the miner bumping isnt my biggest issue they have some options. But since CCP has roped freighter bumping into the same thread im here to be and advocate for the pilots who want something done about it. 3 day old dessie pilots should not be able to perma lock a freighter down by simply running into it and loling.
I still don't believe you, as you've provided no proof, and your story is highly improbable. If you're mining ABC ores, why wouldn't that alleged Machariel pilot just jump in a Talos or Cat and blow you up quickly and safely, holding you in place with a reliable warp scram?
Because they find it more fun to push you around a belt doing 1800 m/s in a mach till you give.... or can warp off which isnt usally the case. |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:04:00 -
[304] - Quote
87102-6 wrote:But the straw that broke the camel's back was the following: Quote:Besides, you don't dictate how I play, or how I speak/converse with others. It's my game. Not yours. There is absolutely nothing -- I repeat, NOTHING -- constructive or positive about a player base where people insist "you cannot dictate how I play/what I say" while in the exact same thread witnessing an entire organisation of individuals who spend their time in-game doing exactly that. [/quote]
You misunderstand the issue completely. The point of saying "you don't dictate how I play", is to point out that if you want to affect someone else's game, you're supposed to log in and take actions within the game mechanics that affect their game. Like minerbumpers do :) To skip the logging in and playing the game part, and to just attempt to dictate how they play by telling them your opinion, is antithetical to our understanding of EVE online. I'm sorry that this distinction has eluded you, and that your frustration at not understanding this distinction takes you to such a drastic step, but it does exist, and it's what minerbumping is all about :)
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Ustrello
Mindstar Technology Fatal Ascension
66
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Posted - 2012.11.30 19:06:00 -
[305] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Ahvram wrote:
Because Miner bumping only happen in ICE belts right? I mean there is no one who goes around bumping the ABC ore miners and demanding ISK?? Your reply is on par with the goon. Empty and pointless
And lets not forget I didnt ask to post here I was forced to post here by CCP.
Well, to be honest, yes, I did think there was literally no one going around bumping ABC ore miners and demanding ISK. Are you claiming that there are? If so, do you have proof of this assertion? Idk let me log on and check my 2 miners ships for Machariel paint scratchs and ill get back to you.... The most infamous bumping is in the ice fields but it happens to the ABC miners all the time. If anyone has a good solution to make everyone happy im all for it. Like Ive said the miner bumping isnt my biggest issue they have some options. But since CCP has roped freighter bumping into the same thread im here to be and advocate for the pilots who want something done about it. 3 day old dessie pilots should not be able to perma lock a freighter down by simply running into it and loling.
High sec has ABCs? Man what is left of null sec mining just died right there |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:07:00 -
[306] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Ahvram wrote:
Idk let me log on and check my 2 miners ships for Machariel paint scratchs and ill get back to you.... The most infamous bumping is in the ice fields but it happens to the ABC miners all the time.
If anyone has a good solution to make everyone happy im all for it. Like Ive said the miner bumping isnt my biggest issue they have some options. But since CCP has roped freighter bumping into the same thread im here to be and advocate for the pilots who want something done about it. 3 day old dessie pilots should not be able to perma lock a freighter down by simply running into it and loling.
I still don't believe you, as you've provided no proof, and your story is highly improbable. If you're mining ABC ores, why wouldn't that alleged Machariel pilot just jump in a Talos or Cat and blow you up quickly and safely, holding you in place with a reliable warp scram? Because they find it more fun to push you around a belt doing 1800 m/s in a mach till you give.... or can warp off which isnt usally the case.
Well, I still don't believe you, but if we assume that actually happens...since you're in null-sec mining ABC ores in a retriever, and they're risking a bill+ isk ship which you could easily kill with a modicum of planning, how is that an issue that should be changed?
Ustrello wrote:High sec has ABCs? Man what is left of null sec mining just died right there
Well I've been reading his posts as him claiming that people are bumping ABC miners in belts in nullsec, with machariels, which is the only literal reading of his posts, but seems incredibly improbable. |
Sara XIII
The Carnifex Corp
123
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:10:00 -
[307] - Quote
87102-6,
That's weak.
EvE Between Ignorance and Wisdom |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:11:00 -
[308] - Quote
Ustrello wrote:Ahvram wrote:Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Ahvram wrote:
Because Miner bumping only happen in ICE belts right? I mean there is no one who goes around bumping the ABC ore miners and demanding ISK?? Your reply is on par with the goon. Empty and pointless
And lets not forget I didnt ask to post here I was forced to post here by CCP.
Well, to be honest, yes, I did think there was literally no one going around bumping ABC ore miners and demanding ISK. Are you claiming that there are? If so, do you have proof of this assertion? Idk let me log on and check my 2 miners ships for Machariel paint scratchs and ill get back to you.... The most infamous bumping is in the ice fields but it happens to the ABC miners all the time. If anyone has a good solution to make everyone happy im all for it. Like Ive said the miner bumping isnt my biggest issue they have some options. But since CCP has roped freighter bumping into the same thread im here to be and advocate for the pilots who want something done about it. 3 day old dessie pilots should not be able to perma lock a freighter down by simply running into it and loling. High sec has ABCs? Man what is left of null sec mining just died right there
Ya my fault on saying ABC. Just plain old astroid belts. Im sure you people knew what I ment but you got a few freebee post to get things off topic. |
Ustrello
Mindstar Technology Fatal Ascension
66
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:11:00 -
[309] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Ahvram wrote:Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Ahvram wrote:
Idk let me log on and check my 2 miners ships for Machariel paint scratchs and ill get back to you.... The most infamous bumping is in the ice fields but it happens to the ABC miners all the time.
If anyone has a good solution to make everyone happy im all for it. Like Ive said the miner bumping isnt my biggest issue they have some options. But since CCP has roped freighter bumping into the same thread im here to be and advocate for the pilots who want something done about it. 3 day old dessie pilots should not be able to perma lock a freighter down by simply running into it and loling.
I still don't believe you, as you've provided no proof, and your story is highly improbable. If you're mining ABC ores, why wouldn't that alleged Machariel pilot just jump in a Talos or Cat and blow you up quickly and safely, holding you in place with a reliable warp scram? Because they find it more fun to push you around a belt doing 1800 m/s in a mach till you give.... or can warp off which isnt usally the case. Well, I still don't believe you, but if we assume that actually happens...since you're in null-sec mining ABC ores in a retriever, and they're risking a bill+ isk ship which you could easily kill with a modicum of planning, how is that an issue that should be changed? Ustrello wrote:High sec has ABCs? Man what is left of null sec mining just died right there Well I've been reading his posts as him claiming that people are bumping ABC miners in belts in nullsec, with machariels, which is the only literal reading of his posts, but seems incredibly improbable.
If that is true he is either a horrible troll or a really dumb pubbie |
Jonah Gravenstein
Holistic Materials Research Council
3911
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:12:00 -
[310] - Quote
Ahvram wrote: So how can a solo freighter pilot who is forced to take a choke point on a trade route able to take active measures to protect themselves from your recycled goon bumping alts? ( a known exploit but goons never get punished for it) I cant warp cant shoot can move cant do anything. Again this is 1 ship 1/10 my size able to lock me down with no reprocussions... Ya thats balanced.
Goon logic = no logic just guns and numbers and CCP puppet strings
How is a freighter pilot forced to take a route that has a chokepoint, there are ways around them, they just involve many more jumps.
On the subject of collisions causing damage, given that the formula for kinetic energy is 1/2mv^2, m is mass in KG, V is velocity in M/s (assuming Newtonian Physics). A rifter weighing 1,067,000KG (source) travelling at 4000m/s has 8536000000 kilojoules of kinetic energy to transfer to whatever it hits, that's not going to just disintegrate a barge, it's going to break it down into its atomic components.
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Alliria Seedspawn
Bioco Industries
11
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Posted - 2012.11.30 19:13:00 -
[311] - Quote
I would like to see bumping become an act of aggression. There would need to be a force threshold or something like this to ensure low speed accidental bumps are not causing a hit to security status or causing people to lose ships (think Jita undock).
I don't know what a proper threshold would be, but If your bump is hard enough, it's considered an act of aggression that is extended to the entire fleet, and my entire fleet can engage. This would provide those miners with the ability to fight back, and would give the freighters a reason to hire an escort.
I believe it's a valid game mechanic IF the person doing the bumping is penalized (if in high or low sec) for being a menace, and the person being bumped is able to retaliate. |
Murk Paradox
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:13:00 -
[312] - Quote
Hyperspatia Lee wrote:I do support a change to Eve bumping mechanics to make them more closely approximate real life physics.
A ship of relatively small mass bumping a much larger ship should bounce off with a relatively smaller effect on the inertia of the larger ship.
What players choose to bump, and when and why, does not in my humble opinion need to be addressed or changed.
That would also assist in trying to block a freighter from reaching a gate as well. I'm all for collision mechanics to be adjusted or even removed. I'm all against for restricting gameplay since it really does not have any sort of permanent effect other than 1 person being too bullheaded and not wanting to adjust (wether it be miner or bumper is moot since both are people/players and choose their own actions).
That's what I still don't understand in this thread... the first time I went into lowsec to start my own PI, I got ransomed at the first station I docked at. And systematically blown up.
I didn't cry about being ransomed or griefed (I couldn't undock!), I flew out after I was in my own special green blob (capsule) and never went back to lowsec.
Such as PI's needing a planet to work, I understand exhumers need something to mine... but there are other places to go or avoid, or you suffer consequences. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1226
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:19:00 -
[313] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:So how can a solo freighter pilot who is forced to take a choke point on a trade route able to take active measures to protect themselves from your recycled goon bumping alts? ( a known exploit but goons never get punished for it) I cant warp cant shoot can move cant do anything. Again this is 1 ship 1/10 my size able to lock me down with no reprocussions... Ya thats balanced.
Goon logic = no logic just guns and numbers and CCP puppet strings
Why don't you go & ask the freighter pilots that consistently avoid being ganked by us? I'm sure they'd be happy to share the same tips we've been telling everyone since we started doing it (They actually work if you put in the tiny amounts of effort required). Recycling bumping alts isn't an exploit (And frankly, why would we recycle bumping alts?). The only exploit regarding recycling is to avoid the penalties of sec status hits which we don't do, because it's just as feasible to agress with a -10 in an ibis as it is to agress with a fresh alt.
A Machariel with a MWD on equates to roughly the same size as a freighter. If you understood game mechanics, you would know that an active MWD increases the signature radius & mass of the ship by roughly 500%. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Murk Paradox
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:19:00 -
[314] - Quote
87102-6 wrote:Well I've had my chance to review the last 3-4 pages of posts. I also went back and read pages 4-8 for context (well, what hadn't been edited out by ISD, but I think I remember what folks said). I appreciate people trying to stay on topic per CCP Falcon's requirements, and I've already stated my two cents repeatedly, as have folks on the other side of the fence. I've effectively tried to meet NO folks half way (so-to-speak) with a list of recommendations on how to to "settle down" (as in keep extorting but to tone very specific aspects down so that they might not be classified by some (including me) as harassment) -- and remember, I'm one of the few miners who would rather be ganked and blown up than bumped repeatedly while being condescended up in Local -- but have yet to see the same done in return. But the straw that broke the camel's back was the following: Quote:Besides, you don't dictate how I play, or how I speak/converse with others. It's my game. Not yours. There is absolutely nothing -- I repeat, NOTHING -- constructive or positive about a player base where people insist "you cannot dictate how I play/what I say" while in the exact same thread witnessing an entire organisation of individuals who spend their time in-game doing exactly that. Needless to say -- and please don't take this as the action of a martyr -- I will be cancelling my subscription after making this post. This conflicts with what I said in my Assembly Hall thread (2nd-to-last paragraph), but the situation there was only heated, not downright utterly ignorant to the point of nausea. I had the same happen when I witnessed one NO member in this thread proposing that another player need provide an API key to validate some argument/point -- just that proposition itself encapsulates the malicious spirit of NO. Remember: extortion is done for financial or material gain, and its been repeatedly stated by all NOA and James that the modus operandi of NO is not that. No amount of spin-doctoring can trump common sense. I had higher hopes that the EVE community in general had somehow achieved the ability to be what the real world calls "reasonable" -- i.e. being able to disagree with another person and say "well I guess we just see it differently and that's okay". Being reasonable is not pompous, type-A, or borderline sociopathic. (Note: for some reason I'm now thinking of King Missile quotes: "Love is not a shipload of slaughtered pigs rotting and festering in the bleating desert" :D ). Those hopes were my own, so I guess you could say the only person I have to blame for that is myself. C'est la vie. To CCP Falcon -- thank you for making this thread (and our conversation!) and giving folks a chance to air their views. I didn't expect anyone to do that, so that's at least one positive thing I can take away from this experience. Takk fyrir.
Yes I can in fact say that. I can say "pay me 10million isk or risk bump". You cannot say I can't. You can easily NOT be in the same system, I CANNOT keep following you without risk of being petitioned and/or banned for "harassment".
Did the concept of freewill sink in yet? NO ONE is making you do anything. They are telling you what CAN happen if you ignore a warning.
You have the right to do the same exact thing. But you cannot tell me I can't dock or make my own choices.
Sorry you don't agree, but it's my game, not your's. (The same words work if you say them to me by the way).
IS the concept "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.11.30 19:26:00 -
[315] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:So how can a solo freighter pilot who is forced to take a choke point on a trade route able to take active measures to protect themselves from your recycled goon bumping alts? ( a known exploit but goons never get punished for it) I cant warp cant shoot can move cant do anything. Again this is 1 ship 1/10 my size able to lock me down with no reprocussions... Ya thats balanced.
Goon logic = no logic just guns and numbers and CCP puppet strings Why don't you go & ask the freighter pilots that consistently avoid being ganked by us? I'm sure they'd be happy to share the same tips we've been telling everyone since we started doing it (They actuallt work). Recycling bumping alts isn't an exploit (And frankly, why would we recycle bumping alts?). The only exploit regarding recycling is to avoid the penalties of sec status hits which we don't do, because it's just as feasible to agress with a -10 in an ibis as it is to agress with a fresh alt. A Machariel with a MWD on equates to roughly the same size as a freighter. If you understood game mechanics, you would know that an active MWD increases the signature radius & mass of the ship by roughly 500%.
Last time I was bump locked in a freighter it was by a 4 day old toon in a dessie. Your getting the 2 issues confused. The miner bumping I have experiance is:
A: Large MWD BS (Usally a Mach) warps into belt with a Cat or thrasher. Proceeds to push the miner all over the belt till the miner gives in and pays or refuses and is popped.
B: Freighter Pilot jumps gate. Lands on other side. As soon as you attempt to warp MWD destroyer plows into you repeatedly locking you down for ransom and or income gank.
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Murk Paradox
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
21
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Posted - 2012.11.30 19:28:00 -
[316] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:So how can a solo freighter pilot who is forced to take a choke point on a trade route able to take active measures to protect themselves from your recycled goon bumping alts? ( a known exploit but goons never get punished for it) I cant warp cant shoot can move cant do anything. Again this is 1 ship 1/10 my size able to lock me down with no reprocussions... Ya thats balanced.
Goon logic = no logic just guns and numbers and CCP puppet strings Why don't you go & ask the freighter pilots that consistently avoid being ganked by us? I'm sure they'd be happy to share the same tips we've been telling everyone since we started doing it (They actuallt work). Recycling bumping alts isn't an exploit (And frankly, why would we recycle bumping alts?). The only exploit regarding recycling is to avoid the penalties of sec status hits which we don't do, because it's just as feasible to agress with a -10 in an ibis as it is to agress with a fresh alt. A Machariel with a MWD on equates to roughly the same size as a freighter. If you understood game mechanics, you would know that an active MWD increases the signature radius & mass of the ship by roughly 500%. Last time I was bump locked in a freighter it was by a 4 day old toon in a dessie. Your getting the 2 issues confused. The miner bumping I have experiance is: A: Large MWD BS (Usally a Mach) warps into belt with a Cat or thrasher. Proceeds to push the miner all over the belt till the miner gives in and pays or refuses and is popped. B: Freighter Pilot jumps gate. Lands on other side. As soon as you attempt to warp MWD destroyer plows into you repeatedly locking you down for ransom and or income gank.
Can't d-scan or employ a scout for such avoidance? Or would that be too close to "pay 10mil isk or risk bump"? "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1226
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:34:00 -
[317] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Last time I was bump locked in a freighter it was by a 4 day old toon in a dessie. Your getting the 2 issues confused. The miner bumping I have experiance is:
A: Large MWD BS (Usally a Mach) warps into belt with a Cat or thrasher. Proceeds to push the miner all over the belt till the miner gives in and pays or refuses and is popped.
B: Freighter Pilot jumps gate. Lands on other side. As soon as you attempt to warp MWD destroyer plows into you repeatedly locking you down for ransom and or income gank.
Considering I do this stuff, I can tell you that everything you have said is completely false. I will now tell you in simple terms, so you can perhaps understand.
Firstly; A destroyer is unable to keep a freighter locked down with bumping. This is due to it's limited mass & size along with it's inability to fit a larger MWD.
Secondly; A Catalyst or Thraser is unable to gank a miner on it's own anymore because of the barge buff. You need 2 very well fit & rigged destroyers to do this, but 3 is the recommendation.
Thirdly; MWD destroyer does not lock you down with bumps due to the reason already stated. I can tell you first hand that it takes 3 100MN Stabber Fleet Issue or 2 Machariels to keep a freighter from warping. If that freighter is being webbed, then often we don't even get the chance to scan it's cargo because they enter warp so fast.
If you want to influence change, you first need to know what you're talking about. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:34:00 -
[318] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Ahvram wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:So how can a solo freighter pilot who is forced to take a choke point on a trade route able to take active measures to protect themselves from your recycled goon bumping alts? ( a known exploit but goons never get punished for it) I cant warp cant shoot can move cant do anything. Again this is 1 ship 1/10 my size able to lock me down with no reprocussions... Ya thats balanced.
Goon logic = no logic just guns and numbers and CCP puppet strings Why don't you go & ask the freighter pilots that consistently avoid being ganked by us? I'm sure they'd be happy to share the same tips we've been telling everyone since we started doing it (They actuallt work). Recycling bumping alts isn't an exploit (And frankly, why would we recycle bumping alts?). The only exploit regarding recycling is to avoid the penalties of sec status hits which we don't do, because it's just as feasible to agress with a -10 in an ibis as it is to agress with a fresh alt. A Machariel with a MWD on equates to roughly the same size as a freighter. If you understood game mechanics, you would know that an active MWD increases the signature radius & mass of the ship by roughly 500%. Last time I was bump locked in a freighter it was by a 4 day old toon in a dessie. Your getting the 2 issues confused. The miner bumping I have experiance is: A: Large MWD BS (Usally a Mach) warps into belt with a Cat or thrasher. Proceeds to push the miner all over the belt till the miner gives in and pays or refuses and is popped. B: Freighter Pilot jumps gate. Lands on other side. As soon as you attempt to warp MWD destroyer plows into you repeatedly locking you down for ransom and or income gank. Can't d-scan or employ a scout for such avoidance? Or would that be too close to "pay 10mil isk or risk bump"?
Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1226
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:36:00 -
[319] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid.
It's great how the people doing said freighter ganking have repeatedly offered advice on how to avoid it, but you ignore it because goons. Ironically, the people who take our advice don't complain about this non-issue. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
550
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:40:00 -
[320] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:. Ironically, the people who take our advice don't complain about this non-issue.
I wouldn't say that's ironic.
Freighter pilots who take advice and don't die don't complain because they don't die. "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
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Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
41
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Posted - 2012.11.30 19:43:00 -
[321] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:
Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid.
Is valid? It's valid because CCP says it is. I think you're meaning to ask for a solid reason why it's desirable.
There seem to be way more minerbumpers playing EVE right now, than there are freighter gankers--just like there are more miners than there are freighter pilots, at any given point in time. So, your posts about minerbumping get more replies. I don't see why this bothers you, though.
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Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.11.30 19:43:00 -
[322] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid. It's great how the people doing said freighter ganking have repeatedly offered advice on how to avoid it, but you ignore it because goons. Ironically, the people who take our advice don't complain about this non-issue.
Im sorry I should not have to go out of my way to avoid a broken game mechanic that should basically be and exploit because you cant achieve your goals otherwise. If you could you would not be here defending it. You are being allowed to in essence warp scramble a ship without agression or the ability of your target to do anything about it.
You want to target me and gank me im all for it. Thats EVE and thats the risk I run leaving station. But the ability to perma warp scram a freighter without any negative effects on you is not what EVE is about. If so Warp scramblers would not cause aggression in Hi sec. |
Murk Paradox
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
22
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:47:00 -
[323] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Ahvram wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:So how can a solo freighter pilot who is forced to take a choke point on a trade route able to take active measures to protect themselves from your recycled goon bumping alts? ( a known exploit but goons never get punished for it) I cant warp cant shoot can move cant do anything. Again this is 1 ship 1/10 my size able to lock me down with no reprocussions... Ya thats balanced.
Goon logic = no logic just guns and numbers and CCP puppet strings Why don't you go & ask the freighter pilots that consistently avoid being ganked by us? I'm sure they'd be happy to share the same tips we've been telling everyone since we started doing it (They actuallt work). Recycling bumping alts isn't an exploit (And frankly, why would we recycle bumping alts?). The only exploit regarding recycling is to avoid the penalties of sec status hits which we don't do, because it's just as feasible to agress with a -10 in an ibis as it is to agress with a fresh alt. A Machariel with a MWD on equates to roughly the same size as a freighter. If you understood game mechanics, you would know that an active MWD increases the signature radius & mass of the ship by roughly 500%. Last time I was bump locked in a freighter it was by a 4 day old toon in a dessie. Your getting the 2 issues confused. The miner bumping I have experiance is: A: Large MWD BS (Usally a Mach) warps into belt with a Cat or thrasher. Proceeds to push the miner all over the belt till the miner gives in and pays or refuses and is popped. B: Freighter Pilot jumps gate. Lands on other side. As soon as you attempt to warp MWD destroyer plows into you repeatedly locking you down for ransom and or income gank. Can't d-scan or employ a scout for such avoidance? Or would that be too close to "pay 10mil isk or risk bump"? Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid.
Google is quite simply, your friend. Plenty of articles about freighting, hell, don't even need that.... I only recently came back from null space and was leery of using the chokepoint because it wasn't guarded, and in fact, was camped by hostiles. I had 3 seperate offers from people who had scouts and covops to scout the gate for me. Leaving in a harbinger.
Not that difficult to learn that if you aren't going to be piloting something worth enough to hurt to lose... don't do it by yourself.
Infact, I believe I first learned about that in rookie help within my first 2 weeks of logging into Eve. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1227
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:48:00 -
[324] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid. It's great how the people doing said freighter ganking have repeatedly offered advice on how to avoid it, but you ignore it because goons. Ironically, the people who take our advice don't complain about this non-issue. Im sorry I should not have to go out of my way to avoid a broken game mechanic that should basically be and exploit because you cant achieve your goals otherwise. If you could you would not be here defending it. You are being allowed to in essence warp scramble a ship without agression or the ability of your target to do anything about it. You want to target me and gank me im all for it. Thats EVE and thats the risk I run leaving station. But the ability to perma warp scram a freighter without any negative effects on you is not what EVE is about. If so Warp scramblers would not cause aggression in Hi sec.
Except it's not warp scrambling, it's bumping. If you don't like being bumped in a freighter, use something smaller. There is consequences for all actions in this game & I've already gone over the negative consequences of bumping which do exist no matter how much you try to claim they don't. You can either take measures to avoid it or continue being a victim.
Just because you believe it's a broken game mechanic & should be an exploit doesn't make it a broken game mechanic & an exploit. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Murk Paradox
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
22
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:54:00 -
[325] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid. It's great how the people doing said freighter ganking have repeatedly offered advice on how to avoid it, but you ignore it because goons. Ironically, the people who take our advice don't complain about this non-issue. Im sorry I should not have to go out of my way to avoid a broken game mechanic that should basically be and exploit because you cant achieve your goals otherwise. If you could you would not be here defending it. You are being allowed to in essence warp scramble a ship without agression or the ability of your target to do anything about it. You want to target me and gank me im all for it. Thats EVE and thats the risk I run leaving station. But the ability to perma warp scram a freighter without any negative effects on you is not what EVE is about. If so Warp scramblers would not cause aggression in Hi sec.
If you don't worry about the consequences, don't cry when they happen to you. If you feel it is a broken mechanic, and you think you are in a position to be hurt or podded or harassed or anything you don't want to happen....
Don't do it. You already said you don't mind being ganked. You don't get to determine HOW you lose the ship... unless you self destruct. If you already don't mind, and you know it could happen, and you accept the cardinal rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"... then what's the problem? It's working to your expectations. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:55:00 -
[326] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid. It's great how the people doing said freighter ganking have repeatedly offered advice on how to avoid it, but you ignore it because goons. Ironically, the people who take our advice don't complain about this non-issue. Im sorry I should not have to go out of my way to avoid a broken game mechanic that should basically be and exploit because you cant achieve your goals otherwise. If you could you would not be here defending it. You are being allowed to in essence warp scramble a ship without agression or the ability of your target to do anything about it. You want to target me and gank me im all for it. Thats EVE and thats the risk I run leaving station. But the ability to perma warp scram a freighter without any negative effects on you is not what EVE is about. If so Warp scramblers would not cause aggression in Hi sec. Except it's not warp scrambling, it's bumping. If you don't like being bumped in a freighter, use something smaller. There is consequences for all actions in this game & I've already gone over the negative consequences of bumping which do exist no matter how much you try to claim they don't. You can either take measures to avoid it or continue being a victim. Just because you believe it's a broken game mechanic & should be an exploit doesn't make it a broken game mechanic & an exploit.
Does it have the same effect on my ship as warp scrambling? Yes infact it does so how is it any different. The only difference is the bumper takes no risk. The ganker firing at me is taking risk sure but he is only able to do this because there is a pilot there avoiding all risk by bumping.
The reason Im here is because I think it should be deemed and exploit. Atleast Freighter gate bumping that is. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1227
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 20:04:00 -
[327] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ahvram wrote:Its great how everyone has and answer for miner bumping but no one can give a solid reason how locking a frieghter down (Basically warp scram without aggression) is valid. It's great how the people doing said freighter ganking have repeatedly offered advice on how to avoid it, but you ignore it because goons. Ironically, the people who take our advice don't complain about this non-issue. Im sorry I should not have to go out of my way to avoid a broken game mechanic that should basically be and exploit because you cant achieve your goals otherwise. If you could you would not be here defending it. You are being allowed to in essence warp scramble a ship without agression or the ability of your target to do anything about it. You want to target me and gank me im all for it. Thats EVE and thats the risk I run leaving station. But the ability to perma warp scram a freighter without any negative effects on you is not what EVE is about. If so Warp scramblers would not cause aggression in Hi sec. Except it's not warp scrambling, it's bumping. If you don't like being bumped in a freighter, use something smaller. There is consequences for all actions in this game & I've already gone over the negative consequences of bumping which do exist no matter how much you try to claim they don't. You can either take measures to avoid it or continue being a victim. Just because you believe it's a broken game mechanic & should be an exploit doesn't make it a broken game mechanic & an exploit. Does it have the same effect on my ship as warp scrambling? Yes infact it does so how is it any different. The only difference is the bumper takes no risk. The ganker firing at me is taking risk sure but he is only able to do this because there is a pilot there avoiding all risk by bumping. And the reason Im here is because I think it should be deemed and exploit.
No it does not have the same effect as warp scrambling or for a few reasons. The bumper could miss (it happens) & you could escape. The bumper could accidentally bump you in an unintended direction, causing you to enter warp. You could have an alt or a friend webbing you, causing you to enter warp within a couple of seconds. I could go on about the countermeasures & probably would if they were not already well publicised. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 20:12:00 -
[328] - Quote
No it does not have the same effect as warp scrambling or for a few reasons. The bumper could miss (it happens) & you could escape. The bumper could accidentally bump you in an unintended direction, causing you to enter warp. You could have an alt or a friend webbing you, causing you to enter warp within a couple of seconds. I could go on about the countermeasures & probably would if they were not already well publicised.[/quote]
You would have to have your eyes closed to miss a frieghter on a bump... O wait there is this cool button called Approch Id figure you as a Pro goon would know what that was but go figure...... Bumped into warp LOL man this gets better and better. And I guess CCP will provide me a free alt account with a webbing toon as now GOONs deem it as the way your required to move a frieghter around to avoid being Goon scrammed (bumped) All invalid points.
|
Murk Paradox
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
23
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 20:18:00 -
[329] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:
No it does not have the same effect as warp scrambling or for a few reasons. The bumper could miss (it happens) & you could escape. The bumper could accidentally bump you in an unintended direction, causing you to enter warp. You could have an alt or a friend webbing you, causing you to enter warp within a couple of seconds. I could go on about the countermeasures & probably would if they were not already well publicised.
You would have to have your eyes closed to miss a frieghter on a bump... O wait there is this cool button called Approch Id figure you as a Pro goon would know what that was but go figure...... Bumped into warp LOL man this gets better and better. And I guess CCP will provide me a free alt account with a webbing toon as now GOONs deem it as the way your required to move a frieghter around to avoid being Goon scrammed (bumped) All invalid points.
[/quote]
Uh.... Mallak is right. Those techniques do work. Not really "invalid" just maybe... "impractical" if you refuse to employ them, or ask a friend for assistance.
But yes, if you insist on not using a scout or d-scan and insist a freighter is perfectly safe to move millions and billions of isk... then Mallak and his fleet deserve your money.
Or just use a smaller ship, multiple trips. Or better.... pay someone to escort/scout! "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 20:25:00 -
[330] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Ahvram wrote:
No it does not have the same effect as warp scrambling or for a few reasons. The bumper could miss (it happens) & you could escape. The bumper could accidentally bump you in an unintended direction, causing you to enter warp. You could have an alt or a friend webbing you, causing you to enter warp within a couple of seconds. I could go on about the countermeasures & probably would if they were not already well publicised.
You would have to have your eyes closed to miss a frieghter on a bump... O wait there is this cool button called Approch Id figure you as a Pro goon would know what that was but go figure...... Bumped into warp LOL man this gets better and better. And I guess CCP will provide me a free alt account with a webbing toon as now GOONs deem it as the way your required to move a frieghter around to avoid being Goon scrammed (bumped) All invalid points.
Uh.... Mallak is right. Those techniques do work. Not really "invalid" just maybe... "impractical" if you refuse to employ them, or ask a friend for assistance.
But yes, if you insist on not using a scout or d-scan and insist a freighter is perfectly safe to move millions and billions of isk... then Mallak and his fleet deserve your money.
Or just use a smaller ship, multiple trips. Or better.... pay someone to escort/scout![/quote]
I do use scouts and have stopped using my frieghter for any loads over a billion isk thats not the point. The point is the ability to basically warp scramble a frieghter without aggression. You have the full ability to lock another players ship down with them having no means to stop you. If you tried to do this the way it was intended with a warp scrambler you would be concorded. You are using and exploiting a broken game mechanic to avoid using the one and only pvp module that can prevent a player from warping. |
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