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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.11.29 20:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
I find these whines for bumping nerf unbelievable.
I have been away from the game for over 4 years. I cannot imagine miners whining for bumping nerf back at 2008 to make it easier to AFK mine and/or bot. Back then most sane miners hated the bots. Now it is all upside down, a part of the miner community embraces the bot-like AFK playing style.
The bumping represents one of the core values of Eve. Other people can and will make your activities harder, especially if you are not prepared, or like in this case, do not even want to prepare or adapt. Lets ignore the fact that bumping does not cause the target any lasting damage or harm for the sake of argument.
Bumping is very easy to avoid. The people doing it are usually in one (1) system: if their demand for 10m isk is too much, is it that hard to move to the next system? What the biggest issue is in my opinion is the sense on entitlement to mine anywhere and anytime they choose. It hurts their pride to have to react to other people in any way, i.e. they reject the idea of multiplayer Eve. This is even more disturbing when you realize the miners are already part of the mining/market PVP even if they do not admit it themselves, it is just that the PVP must be allowed only for them, not the others.
The pro-nerf crowd consist mainly of a handful of vocal individuals who feel that the recent mining ship buff was not enough as it does not include total invulnerability towards the rest of Eve. They refuse to move from the affected systems because their pride has been hurt, some even participating in very dubious methods like claiming death threats or other rl violence to get some attention. The whole thing has been blown up from all proportions by few pearl-clutching individuals.
Save bumping. Save the Eve we all love. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ahvram wrote: Right because pushing miners around belts and demanding ISK to stop is full of risk.
The risks for both parties are 0. QED. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2012.11.29 21:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Perhaps we need a fresh point of view to this whole situation. CCP should consider this:
How to better reward hardworking individuals and organizations who create emergent, player-driven content? Goonfleet and James 315 are prime examples of players making Eve better for the playerbase, not even to mention some of their shenanigans can often be used straight up as marketing material for the game.
As many have testified, all systems this New Order has visited have transformed from silent graveyards to vibrant, living systems with active community.
I say the question is not "do we need to nerf bumping" but rather "how to encourage James 315 and his kin to continue breaking the dull monotony of script-driven playstyle and bringing life to highsec".
Some kind of official "Community Ambassador" tag would be great for these hard-working, selfless persons.
Ask not what CCP can do for you - ask what you can do for EVE |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
28
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Posted - 2012.11.29 22:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
The roleplaying rules of player-run organizations have no bearing whatsoever on the issue at hand.
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
32
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Posted - 2012.11.29 22:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Xovbor wrote: My son started to play the game (he is 19) and after 2 days (and 60million isk in fees from new order agents)
Sir, I call you a liar. Please provide us with API where we can see him paying 6 times for permits in 2 days after starting the game. Even if true why did you not educate him? Why did you leave the educating to the Order?
You are a notorious man of bad reputation who refuses to leave the system helped by the Order while having the audacity to claim there is no way to counter this threat.
Perhaps you should buy your 19 year old son a stabber and tell him to go bump some miners. I bet your offspring would have a bit different outlook on the game after that experience compared to afk-botting. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
What miners are asking is for CCP to make it easier to play the game AFK. Really? Make me a module my bot can press every 3 minutes to completely eliminate the need to check on my miner?
For shame.
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2012.11.30 00:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
admiral root wrote: Here's my favourite question: How is temporarily disrupting someone's ability to mine ice because they refuse to buy a 10 million isk permit, where the "victim" always has the option to go elsewhere and lose nothing, different from pointing someone's officer-fit battleship in lowsec and demanding 10 billion isk or you'll permanently deny them their ship and their pod, where they lose everything?
You see, miners believe they are entitled to full invulnerability in high-sec. James 315 wrote an excellent manifesto on the issue back at april, you all should check it out: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1200137#post1200137 These people will not rest until high-sec becomes Trammel or CCP puts its foot down and says enough is enough. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
41
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Posted - 2012.11.30 12:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
All aspects of this so called "problem" can be dealt with current ingame means. The issues we see the handful of people actually complaining about are:
1) They have to react to other people. Usually in one system. Out from all the systems. 2) They are angry because they got ganked. This is not relevant to the discussion. 3) They feel verbally abused. This is not relevant to the discussion.
We should keep in mind that the scope of the "problem" is really quite limited. There are in the order of magnitude around 10 people total crying out for change. A change which would most of all be philosophical. No more Eve, the dark spaceship game.
If CCP chooses to solve problem 1 by somehow making miners even more invulnerable to player interaction, we all have truly lost the game we all came to love.
Shaka, when the walls fell. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
41
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Posted - 2012.11.30 12:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
This thread is about bumping, not some player-run organization. Please keep your posts on topic.
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.11.30 13:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
87102-6 wrote: .. it needs to be toned down (or better yet cease), and if it doesn't, banned/account cancelled.. So for now I'll tell you what would ease my annoyance.
* Give players reasonable amount of time to respond. If I had to give you a number? 30 minutes.
And here we have it. The proposed change to harassment rules: The reasonable time limit to answer the question "Firstname Lastname are you afk"? 30 minutes. If 30 minutes are not given to answer the question, risk getting banned/account cancelled whatever that means.
Some men you just can't reach. |
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.11.30 13:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Anslo wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Ollivir Witt wrote:Bumping in this case is being used as a no-risk version of PVP. Didn't bother reading the rest of your huge post after this line because this line is so wrong why waste my time with the rest. Bumpers can be war decced or suicide ganked just like anyone else. Bam. Risk. Also there's a considerable risk of drowning in all the tears And then they dock up or avoid ti by dropping corp.
Force all miners and bumpers in player corps. Make it impossible to avoid wardecs for both sides. Happy now? I would be.
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.11.30 14:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Anslo wrote:SaKoil wrote:Force all miners and bumpers in player corps. Make it impossible to avoid wardecs for both sides. Happy now? I would be. No, because miners don't want to be dec'd, thus why they NPC corp. They don't want to pvp, so they mine in highsec.
See, this is a problem. You want one set of rules for yourself and another ruleset for others.
Miners participate in mining/market PVP all the time when they fire their lasers. Refusing to understand this point does not make it less true.
In my opinion we should not go around changing the basic philosophy of whole Eve based on what you want. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.11.30 14:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:The intention of this thread is to gather questions, opinions and feedback from the player base with regards to bumping, and present them to the Senior GMs for review and responses.
What we are seeing is a small handful of people who will continue to cry for nerfs until they are perfectly safe and invulnerable, not needing to interact with anyone ever again. We are now discussing about bumping, but there will always be the next issue even if this issue is somehow resolved. They will never stop until the goal of invulnerability achieved, at least if CCP does not intervene and explicitly explain their vision of Eve.
Now it is up to you to draw the line. Should player interaction be possible in highsec?
I think this decision is a pivotal point also for the majority of the players, not just the vocal trammelites. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2012.11.30 18:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ahvram wrote: Last time a checked every action in eve related to PVP there are some cause and effect. You gank concord pops you, You can/wreck flip you get and agression timer. You harass miners/freighters by pushing them around belts/gates you get? You take no risk for full reward.
You mine, you attract the attention of money hungry protection racket. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
67
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Posted - 2012.12.01 20:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
The simplest issue, just have the audacity to say it aloud.
Do it ****. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
77
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Posted - 2012.12.03 21:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Shvak wrote:Watched a corp mate getting bumped despite being online. There is not much that he or I could do.. I have no issue with bumping but I believe there must be an effective counter.
Ask the poster above you, Construticon, how he managed to mine in the primary target system for the Order for weeks without any serious harm to his profits. He did it seemingly with little effort, making it a bit of a mini game for himself, taunting the bumpers and being all around good sport. If I've understood his posts properly he had as much fun doing it that we did.
What was that? Having fun while mining? We don't want fun, we want invulnerability and zero social interaction!
There have been numerous, numerous ways described even in thread how to mitigate the chance to get bumped, or if any risk is too big, avoid it altogether.
If you feel like there is no effective counter to bumping, this is where I would probably say something about your reading comprehension or some more deeply-rooted cognitive problems, but I give you a benefit of a doubt that you have not seen this thread before or have not yet had time to study its contents. Please do so. Perhaps your corp mate will have fun too.
Who am I kidding |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
77
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Posted - 2012.12.03 22:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
G'monk wrote: who would want more players in EVE anyway? rudeness gets rid of lots of new folks every week..
Lots of people join Eve because it is not, and will never be hello kitty online. There are some people who actually enjoy Eve as a harsh spaceship game.
Bumping as such is as rude as undercutting in the market, a means to an end. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
81
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Posted - 2012.12.04 01:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
xh'neivers wrote:However there is a line that should not be crossed and the overly personal and aggressive tactics used by the bumpers is exactly what is going to put the game into a spiral of worsening social behavior.
It's a abuse of a game mechanic that drives away moderate (generally industrial and hence potentially long term) players and encourages people that just play to cause as much out of game pain to others as possible - generally only ever focusing on the easiest possible targets.
Pray tell, o guardian of proper social behavior, what are these overtly personal and aggressive tactics? Compared to what? I'd say burning down all the things you and your friends own and camping you into a station for a weeks is personal and aggressive. Having you suffer a minor inconvenience of a lost mining cycle when you did not even bother to take protective measures against a bump is nothing compared to that.
All other lines of work in this game have their own quirks and risks. The bot-aspirant miner's total lack of relativity in this issue is what primarily motivates me to bump. For you, everything must be 100% safe and until that day comes you will spew your thinly veiled unsubscribe threats at CCP.
I subscribed back after being away for 4 years. To bump you.
Eve is worth fighting for. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
83
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Posted - 2012.12.04 07:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Shvak wrote: Why is it terrible? It allows a response without developers making hard anchors or other mechanics to stop it or worse still having bans imposed or making bumping illegal.
How would you formulate the rules for this bump induced aggression? What comes to my mind immediately is placing a gank ship behind a miner and bump the miner with another ship, causing the heroic miner to ram the gank ship at 2000m/sec.
There is nothing wrong with the current mechanics.
Edit:
Shvak wrote: Again I am not speaking on behalf of miners here, but if bumping is to be a legitimate revenue stream surely they should not object to adding a little risk to the endevour.
If mining is to be a legitimate revenue stream, surely they can risk a lost mining cycle if they refuse to use the countless other methods presented to them. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
88
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Posted - 2012.12.04 21:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mariko Bukan wrote::words:
Please stay on topic, we are not discussing RP rules of player run organizations in this thread.
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
88
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Posted - 2012.12.04 21:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Anslo wrote:SaKoil wrote:Mariko Bukan wrote::words: Please stay on topic, we are not discussing RP rules of player run organizations in this thread. Please stop attempting to discredit individuals with actual complaints by saying they are not on topic. Her claims are valid as your "RP" rules of a player run organization have real effects and have been repeatedly stated to be the creed and purpose of miner bumping. I.E. harassment.
But not in this thread. I direct you to read the first post again.
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
88
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Posted - 2012.12.04 22:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mariko Bukan wrote:Thought I covered the mass/speed thing of the bumping mechanic in my original post ... or did you not read what I said.
So the point is; is its current use of the mechanic against miner's valid under the EULA?
I await the storm
Read the first post by CCP. It is perfecty valid. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
89
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Posted - 2012.12.05 04:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Hate 101 wrote:all pvp games have a loophole that players will find and run in to ground bumping caps in null and low is fine in fleet fights bumping exhumers and freighters in high sec is not about pvp
Yeah because miners want to pvp while invulnerable. Actually, they are quite invulnerable right now, but they want the unthinkable risk of losing a mining cycle removed while they pvp afk.
Talk about loopholes in a pvp game. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
89
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Posted - 2012.12.05 04:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mariko Bukan wrote:Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:Mariko Bukan wrote:So the point is; is its current use of the mechanic against miner's valid under the EULA? Yes. I find your selective quote amusing. I await the storm
I went ahead and gave you a second 'like' on the forums as your post presented perhaps the most comprehensive counter-argument against bumping in this whole thread. Which is to say none at all.
The only thing I am seeing are some vague complaints against certain individuals being 'rude', which is totally off-topic, already covered with EULA, easily avoided with ingame mechanics and in my experience much more prevalent in the part of the population who wish to spend their gaming time totally devoid of human contact and social behaviour. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
91
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Posted - 2012.12.05 07:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lady Cub wrote: Wall of text
I, also, have a quote for you:
Quote:Ranting is prohibited
A rant is a long-winded, redundant post, often filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents.
Edit: and another quote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
- Bumping in itself is not considered an exploit.
- Bumping in itself is a valid game mechanic.
- If players feel they are being repeatedly harassed despite trying to avoid this practice by all necessary means, they are free and encouraged to file a petition.
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SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2012.12.05 09:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:How strong must your reality filter be to say that bumping is a "broken" mechanic that is being "exploited" when it has existed for like ten years and GMs, devs, etc have very explicitly stated countless times that it isn't broken and isn't being exploited.
I suppose it's to be expected, the afks and bot-aspirants are so removed from this game that they aren't even aware of what is going on, how the game works, or what has been stated time and time again by GMs/Devs
I like the part the most where they actively ignore the devs while clutching their pearls and screeching their demands to the world.
The game and the community is somehow broken because they do not conform to their exact needs.
I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. ~~Michael Jackson
Pigs are against the EULA. ~~Lady Cub |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
105
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Posted - 2012.12.05 16:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rodtrik wrote:.... I like how carebears cannot be "fountains" by your definition. Who builds up industry? Who gets the materials to build ships and ammo and stations?...
I'd like to argue on your on your point on the "fountains" as admiral root put it so eloquently. The big difference is, no player would notice if the pearl clutching AFK bot-aspirant miners would be one day replaced with real NPCs, mining away, filling the markets with their products. You wanted to minimize your interaction with the rest of the player base and have quite successfully done so.
You generate new content for no-one. No stories are told about your heroic deeds. Indeed, I'd say a only very specific minority has ever joined this great game to do "mining" in "highsec" - the isk selling bots.
What draws the global media coverage and thus a great number of new people in the game are all the countless shenanigans perpetrated by different communities of players. Who did the great scam? Who was the dread pirate?
Who was the most afk miner? No. Nope. You are boring, the epitome of poop-socking grinder, toiling away pointlessly rock after rock.
CCP needs every subscription, and a such, has catered your ever increasing demands for change. Still, at some point, a line must be drawn. Even you have to adapt and accept that other people play this game.
I hope it will happen before Eve changes into something we do not recognize anymore. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
107
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Posted - 2012.12.05 16:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote: Eve is about positive creation of content. Your "content," i.e. HARASSMENT, is targeted and pushes individuals out off Eve. That is detrimental and not emergent gameplay.
What content have bot-aspirant afk miners ever created? |
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