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Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
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Posted - 2012.11.08 04:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know I listed this as an exploit and in my opinion the way it is abused to create order the buyer has no intention of completing is really bad.
The Market Buy/Sell orders is where players get 99% of the goods they need, and they have learned that through experience when you go to buy you GET and item and when you go to SELL you get isk for items.
This is not a 'stupidity' scam as in not reading the numbers or counting the 0's in a trade this is using the market itself and looks 100% valid and there is infinite transparency to this scam.
Literary as far as i know there is no way to see this until you have acquired the good and try to sell them.
Yes its the game design to cancel the order if not able to be filled. But the scam/buyer looses nothing for this fake buy order.
I don't care how CCP decided to fix this but it need to be fixed. I understand the uses of Margin Trading but there needs to be a penalty for purposely abusing the system. Off the top of my head if the Buyer makes a 1.000 unit order then they need to front the money for 250ish units. Why not instead of canceling the order if the funds are not sufficient for the 1.000 then have the buyer still buy the 250 units then after that cancel the order!
I feel this would improve the eve community. Thanks. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
333
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 06:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
They are easy to spot. Anything with a min volume higher than one is a scam. Agreed, the skill has no real use in the game and could be reimbursed. There is no credit and loans system in EVE. You can either pay for it or you can't. It has no real use other than to create false market orders. |
Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
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Posted - 2012.11.08 13:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Skydell thanks for the input.
Easy to spot if you know what you are looking for. If no-one told you about it, and it has never happened to you then you have 0 idea and there is no way to find out until it is basically to late.
And I thought the skill did have basic use for traders dealing with large quantities of buy/sell?
I'm just suggesting that it gets modified. :) |
Kuro Bon
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 13:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
For the naive player.. what is the actually problem?
Someone Tries to sell and it won't go through? |
Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 14:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Its a scam like any other trying to trick players into buying overpriced items, or selling them at a super low price.
This scam goes as follows.
Buyer sets up 1.000 unit order (for arguments sake 1 mill isk per unit base price) but set want to buy each at 3 mill(1.000 units min).
Buyer then sets up sell orders for 2 mill, so they make 1mill profit on each, on another account.
To a standard player it looks like if you have 1.000 units of X then you get get a great deal. They then buy 1.000 units from elsewhere, or from the scamer's account for 2mill each(expecting to make a 1 mill profit). When they try to complete the Buy order of 1.000 units, the Buyer does not have the isk to pay for it, as it is listed so the order is canceled.
At this point the player now has 1bill worth of X item and either has to sell it all over or complete buy orders of 800K which the scamer may have set up. As the player can try to make his money back slow listing it as a sell order or fast and loose money.
This is all assuming that the player did not buy the product at 2 mill, which the scamer set up as overpriced merchandise to stick to a player. In which case it is near impossible to make up the lost money. |
TehCloud
Carnivore Company To be Announced.
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 14:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Player 1 uses Character A to place a Buy Order in Market. Player 1 then uses Character B to sell that Item via Contract or Market order.
Player 2 then sees this and think's he can earn money by buying cheap and selling at a high price.
But because Character A from Player 1 doesn't have enough money needed for the transaction to be completed it will fail and the buy order will disappear leaving Player 2 with a worthless Item he bought at a high price. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
715
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 21:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Magormor wrote:I know I listed this as an exploit and in my opinion the way it is abused to create order the buyer has no intention of completing is really bad.
The Market Buy/Sell orders is where players get 99% of the goods they need, and they have learned that through experience when you go to buy you GET and item and when you go to SELL you get isk for items.
This is not a 'stupidity' scam as in not reading the numbers or counting the 0's in a trade this is using the market itself and looks 100% valid and there is infinite transparency to this scam.
Literary as far as i know there is no way to see this until you have acquired the good and try to sell them.
Yes its the game design to cancel the order if not able to be filled. But the scam/buyer looses nothing for this fake buy order.
I don't care how CCP decided to fix this but it need to be fixed. I understand the uses of Margin Trading but there needs to be a penalty for purposely abusing the system. Off the top of my head if the Buyer makes a 1.000 unit order then they need to front the money for 250ish units. Why not instead of canceling the order if the funds are not sufficient for the 1.000 then have the buyer still buy the 250 units then after that cancel the order!
I feel this would improve the eve community. Thanks.
Several points: 1.) Do some research before posting.... this has been brought up many times, and many people have tried to "fix" the problem. However, this problem is NOT easy to fix....
2.) You can spot a "margin scam" by looking at the minimum amount column... If it's greater than 1, it's typically a scam.
3.) The Margin Trader Character has a net loss when the trade fails. They are charged a .75-1% brokers fee. Additionally, you don't lose anything on that trade either. You don't give them anything and they don't get anything.
4.) While you can lose some time and effort, the only way you lose isk in a margin trade scam is if buy goods above their market worth. If you buy goods at or below market value, and the trade fails, you can then sell those goods at or below market value, and no real losses occur.
5.) The only way a Margin Trade Scammer makes ISK is if you buy their overpriced goods. Don't buy overpriced goods... and you won't lose isk.
|
Luc Chastot
Moira. Villore Accords
73
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 21:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
EVE Central. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Jessica Danikov
Ubuntu Inc. Varangon Tagma
5
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 23:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
I can understand the frustration at this.
Is the minimum amount on a buy order vital to the scam? Does anyone else use the minimum amount for genuine trading, and is there a justifiable reason to keep it in the game (balancing the cost of a prolific, hard to detect without experience scam against the benefit of such a feature). Seems to me if you can defeat the scam by taking out minimum amounts and it's an otherwise unused feature- as evidence by the wisdom 'if it has a minimum quantity greater than 1, it's a scam'. |
Iris Bravemount
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
148
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 23:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well, I use this skill alot on my alt, and I don't use it for scam. It is a vital skill for trading in game (and in real life).
It allows me to set up a buy order for a gazillion units of an item before I have the money to pay for the whole order, which is not a problem if I know that by the time people sell me a gazillion units, my sell orders will have been completed and I will have enough money.
It allows me to trade with my isk flows, rather than with my current isk, which is incredibly helpful for large scale trading.
The problem is, that when the buy order fails (not enough capital left to pay for the currently sold item), the buyer still gets that one unit of the item "for free". This is what the scammers exploit (mainly by setting the minimal amount over 1) and should be fixed. If the order fails, the seller should keep his item. Why active tank bonuses are bad for you |
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Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 12:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Magormor wrote:I know I listed this as an exploit and in my opinion the way it is abused to create order the buyer has no intention of completing is really bad.
The Market Buy/Sell orders is where players get 99% of the goods they need, and they have learned that through experience when you go to buy you GET and item and when you go to SELL you get isk for items.
This is not a 'stupidity' scam as in not reading the numbers or counting the 0's in a trade this is using the market itself and looks 100% valid and there is infinite transparency to this scam.
Literary as far as i know there is no way to see this until you have acquired the good and try to sell them.
Yes its the game design to cancel the order if not able to be filled. But the scam/buyer looses nothing for this fake buy order.
I don't care how CCP decided to fix this but it need to be fixed. I understand the uses of Margin Trading but there needs to be a penalty for purposely abusing the system. Off the top of my head if the Buyer makes a 1.000 unit order then they need to front the money for 250ish units. Why not instead of canceling the order if the funds are not sufficient for the 1.000 then have the buyer still buy the 250 units then after that cancel the order!
I feel this would improve the eve community. Thanks. Several points: 1.) Do some research before posting.... this has been brought up many times, and many people have tried to "fix" the problem. However, this problem is NOT easy to fix.... 2.) You can spot a "margin scam" by looking at the minimum amount column... If it's greater than 1, it's typically a scam. 3.) The Margin Trader Character has a net loss when the trade fails. They are charged a .75-1% brokers fee. Additionally, you don't lose anything on that trade either. You don't give them anything and they don't get anything. 4.) While you can lose some time and effort, the only way you lose isk in a margin trade scam is if buy goods above their market worth. If you buy goods at or below market value, and the trade fails, you can then sell those goods at or below market value, and no real losses occur. 5.) The only way a Margin Trade Scammer makes ISK is if you buy their overpriced goods. Don't buy overpriced goods... and you won't lose isk.
My point is unless this happens to you you WILL NOT KNOW! All other times in eve expect under this 1 circumstance when you use the market you Get what you see.
1. Yes this has been posted, and I was told by a GM to post a sugestion here about this issue becasue it is truely sad.
2. How can you spot something if you dont know what you are looking for?
3. 1% loss is nothing.
4. Whenever you do any marketing in EVE you buy goods where you can make profit, if you buy over to sell for more thats good! that is what trading is!
5. You buy goods when/where you need them. Everyone in EVE has bought overpriced good in 0.0 or lowsec, or for convince at some point in time. This point is mute.
Jessica Danikov thanks :) And yes Iris Bravemount Im not saying remove it complete, because it can have uses like you said, it just needs to be addressed.
|
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
427
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 13:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
If it looks too good to be true, it is.
Anyone stupid enough to fall for this deserves everything they get. |
Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 13:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:If it looks too good to be true, it is.
Anyone stupid enough to fall for this deserves everything they get.
this is not a 'stupidity' scam. please read some points about it. It is transparent, and is not due to a players 'stupidity' |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
137
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 14:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
You know, thing is that I never fell for this or any other kind of scam because, well... I read things. I spend at least 1 hour every day browsing forums and websites and when I find something I don't clearly understand I google it until I know enough to decide does it have any kind of influence on me and my gameplay. That was a case with aggro mechanics at start, with trading, missions, lowsec, piracy, corps, etc, etc. And that was how I learned about margin trade scam and how to spot it.
You can see a lot of times people responding with "can't fix stupid" and it is same case with lazy, careless, stubborn, etc. So maybe instead of crying to CCP for fixing non-existing problem you should try to educate your newbie corpies about dangers of "too good to be true" market traps and/or embrace them as just one more way of doing peeveepee.
Either way, derp is usually your own fault unless you are a victim of exploit. Which is not a case here. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 14:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:You know, thing is that I never fell for this or any other kind of scam because, well... I read things. I spend at least 1 hour every day browsing forums and websites and when I find something I don't clearly understand I google it until I know enough to decide does it have any kind of influence on me and my gameplay. That was a case with aggro mechanics at start, with trading, missions, lowsec, piracy, corps, etc, etc. And that was how I learned about margin trade scam and how to spot it.
You can see a lot of times people responding with "can't fix stupid" and it is same case with lazy, careless, stubborn, etc. So maybe instead of crying to CCP for fixing non-existing problem you should try to educate your newbie corpies about dangers of "too good to be true" market traps and/or embrace them as just one more way of doing peeveepee.
Either way, derp is usually your own fault unless you are a victim of exploit. Which is not a case here.
This is Lazy? I have played for what, 2-3 years? Every and i mean every purchase I have made. When you BUY on the market tab you get the number of items you want for the price listed. EVERY time you sell you loose X items and get ISK = to X value.
This is not something that sometimes happens, this is EVERY time on thousand upon thousands of purchases. How do i read the forms looking for something that i did not know existed? Did you know "planet HD 40307g, has at least seven times the mass of Earth"????? It may even host life!
"That was a case with aggro mechanics at start, with trading, missions, lowsec, piracy, corps" In all of these cases the mechanics work the same, across the board other then Agro, which this normal AI and WH AI. This is far from using the normal basic market function. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
137
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 14:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
You see buy order saying "I will buy item I for X ISK per item but minimal amount of items has to be Y". And you see sell order saying "I wanna sell item I for X ISK".
Now, if X from sell order is lower than X from buy order you should think "why the guy selling those items didn't sell it to the guy buying those items?". And this is a moment where your spider senses should start to tingle.
Ok, you say "I have no idea that can be a scam so I cannot learn about it until I become a victim".
Well, I say google "eve online scams" and you will get list of all of them. Then google each one of them and read explanations.
When you should do it? Just after you read Eve Online advert which says "harsh, cold world full of scams, killings, betrayal, espionage".
Really, if you play for 2-3 years and you still think scams should be "fixed" maybe you shouldn't play at all.
Do you think another scam with contracts selling PLEX for 300mil and PLEX are easy to spot for somebody who never fell a victim of it? Hell, no. Is it fair? Hell, no. Should they fix it? Well... welcome to twilight zone, where nothing is as it seems. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
716
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 19:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Magormor wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Magormor wrote:I know I listed this as an exploit and in my opinion the way it is abused to create order the buyer has no intention of completing is really bad.
The Market Buy/Sell orders is where players get 99% of the goods they need, and they have learned that through experience when you go to buy you GET and item and when you go to SELL you get isk for items.
This is not a 'stupidity' scam as in not reading the numbers or counting the 0's in a trade this is using the market itself and looks 100% valid and there is infinite transparency to this scam.
Literary as far as i know there is no way to see this until you have acquired the good and try to sell them.
Yes its the game design to cancel the order if not able to be filled. But the scam/buyer looses nothing for this fake buy order.
I don't care how CCP decided to fix this but it need to be fixed. I understand the uses of Margin Trading but there needs to be a penalty for purposely abusing the system. Off the top of my head if the Buyer makes a 1.000 unit order then they need to front the money for 250ish units. Why not instead of canceling the order if the funds are not sufficient for the 1.000 then have the buyer still buy the 250 units then after that cancel the order!
I feel this would improve the eve community. Thanks. Several points: 1.) Do some research before posting.... this has been brought up many times, and many people have tried to "fix" the problem. However, this problem is NOT easy to fix.... 2.) You can spot a "margin scam" by looking at the minimum amount column... If it's greater than 1, it's typically a scam. 3.) The Margin Trader Character has a net loss when the trade fails. They are charged a .75-1% brokers fee. Additionally, you don't lose anything on that trade either. You don't give them anything and they don't get anything. 4.) While you can lose some time and effort, the only way you lose isk in a margin trade scam is if buy goods above their market worth. If you buy goods at or below market value, and the trade fails, you can then sell those goods at or below market value, and no real losses occur. 5.) The only way a Margin Trade Scammer makes ISK is if you buy their overpriced goods. Don't buy overpriced goods... and you won't lose isk. My point is unless this happens to you you WILL NOT KNOW! All other times in eve expect under this 1 circumstance when you use the market you Get what you see. 1. Yes this has been posted, and I was told by a GM to post a sugestion here about this issue becasue it is truely sad. 2. How can you spot something if you dont know what you are looking for? 3. 1% loss is nothing. 4. Whenever you do any marketing in EVE you buy goods where you can make profit, if you buy over to sell for more thats good! that is what trading is! 5. You buy goods when/where you need them. Everyone in EVE has bought overpriced good in 0.0 or lowsec, or for convince at some point in time. This point is mute. Jessica Danikov thanks :) And yes Iris Bravemount Im not saying remove it complete, because it can have uses like you said, it just needs to be addressed.
So what would be a reasonable fix for you?
A.) Given how money is pulled from escrow, the only manner to limit the Margin Trade scam is to remove the minimum buy amount. This personally wouldn't bother me, but someone complained when I suggested it in another thread and posted a mediocre-but-reasonable reason why they should retain the minimum buy amount.
B.) Perhaps add a Tutorial on common eve scams, how they work, and how they can be spotted/prevented. This should include the station trade window scam, the margin trade scam, and common contract scams.
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Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 21:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite this could also work. :)
Or as I said keep the minimum and if the buyer does not have 100% of the funds force him to use the 25% he has already put down. (ex. buy 25 units of a 100 unit min order) |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
716
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 21:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Magormor wrote:Gizznitt Malikite this could also work. :)
Or as I said keep the minimum and if the buyer does not have 100% of the funds force him to use the 25% he has already put down. (ex. buy 25 units of a 100 unit min order)
I'll repeat the most important thing I said in the other thread....
Margin scamming doesn't need to be fixed.... It doesn't harm anyone.... And YOU ARE AT FAULT if you lose isk to a margin trade scammer.
There needs to be two points made very clear in the tutorial, and then it's 100% solved.
A.) Buy orders are NOT guaranteed to be fulfilled. They can fail if the buyer doesn't have enough isk to cover the purchase.
B.) Since buy orders are not guaranteed, there is NEVER a guarantee that you can sell goods above what you bought them for. As such, whenever you buy goods to resell, you are taking a RISK you cannot sell them for a profit.
Quote:If you keep both of these principles in mind.... then it is ALWAYS YOUR FAULT for losing money on a margin trade scam. YOU accepted the risk by buying the goods, so if you cannot sell them for a profit, then YOU are responsible for the loss. |
Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 23:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Magormor wrote:Gizznitt Malikite this could also work. :)
Or as I said keep the minimum and if the buyer does not have 100% of the funds force him to use the 25% he has already put down. (ex. buy 25 units of a 100 unit min order) I'll repeat the most important thing I said in the other thread.... Margin scamming doesn't need to be fixed.... It doesn't harm anyone.... And YOU ARE AT FAULT if you lose isk to a margin trade scammer. There needs to be two points made very clear in the tutorial, and then it's 100% solved. A.) Buy orders are NOT guaranteed to be fulfilled. They can fail if the buyer doesn't have enough isk to cover the purchase. B.) Since buy orders are not guaranteed, there is NEVER a guarantee that you can sell goods above what you bought them for. As such, whenever you buy goods to resell, you are taking a RISK you cannot sell them for a profit. Quote:If you keep both of these principles in mind.... then it is ALWAYS YOUR FAULT for losing money on a margin trade scam. YOU accepted the risk by buying the goods, so if you cannot sell them for a profit, then YOU are responsible for the loss.
The market orders are meant to be filled......that was always the intention behind the skill. There is no other mechanic to make "non-existent" order on the market. And its clear the intent of the skill by how it can be legitimately used by a true trader, and is why some people dont want it removed(which is ok)
Fixing this scam does nothing to harm legitimate users of the skill if fixed properly. |
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Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 13:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bump until a Dev at-least acknowledges they see this. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
190
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 17:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
You'll be bumping a long time. They've seen it, they almost never comment. |
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
26
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 19:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Magormor wrote:I know I listed this as an exploit and in my opinion the way it is abused to create order the buyer has no intention of completing is really bad.
The Market Buy/Sell orders is where players get 99% of the goods they need, and they have learned that through experience when you go to buy you GET and item and when you go to SELL you get isk for items.
This is not a 'stupidity' scam as in not reading the numbers or counting the 0's in a trade this is using the market itself and looks 100% valid and there is infinite transparency to this scam.
Literary as far as i know there is no way to see this until you have acquired the good and try to sell them.
Yes its the game design to cancel the order if not able to be filled. But the scam/buyer looses nothing for this fake buy order.
I don't care how CCP decided to fix this but it need to be fixed. I understand the uses of Margin Trading but there needs to be a penalty for purposely abusing the system. Off the top of my head if the Buyer makes a 1.000 unit order then they need to front the money for 250ish units. Why not instead of canceling the order if the funds are not sufficient for the 1.000 then have the buyer still buy the 250 units then after that cancel the order!
I feel this would improve the eve community. Thanks.
You can still use this 'exploit' without using the minimum amount. Set up a buy order to overpay for quantity 4 of something. Use an alt to sell yourself 1 of these items. You've then paid out everything that's in escrow. Remove all ISK from the buying character and any additional sells to this buy order will fail.
It's not something that can be fixed, it's part of how the game works. If the character genuinely wants to buy some items but doesn't have the ISK in their wallet then they miss out on trades. Margin trading is risky; in game and in real life. And not just for the person doing the margin trades.
It's a mechanic just like all other mechanics in the game. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10748
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 20:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Not an exploit and punishes the greedy. Working fine as it is.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Dawn DiDacyria
Hybrid Flare strange tactical and research syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 23:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
I would have to say that being able to set up "false buy orders" is wrong. If you set up an order you should be able to cover the cost of buying them, either right away, or in the future if using the Margin skill. Setting up an order with no intention of buying it IS transparent as no one can check how much ISK the character with the buy order has available. Some high minimum volume orders are legitimate, and as someone else pointed out there's lots of overpriced items that people buy and thus also sell because of location too.
A possible way to get a handle on this could be that in order to set up a buy order with Margin the character also needs to have either the buy orders amount of ISK needed in sell orders already, or have it in Wallet, or a mix of both. Any that would have to come from the Wallet would be "locked" and if the buy order was filled without enough ISK on hand then sales orders being filled would go to the buyer before the Margin Trader got any of it. If that made any sense I'll be very surprised.
Cheers |
Angeal MacNova
The Scope Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 00:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
The problem is that EVE allows people to commit fraud or otherwise be fraudulent. Something that is illegal in the real world, goes unpunished in EVE provided that it does not violate the EULA.
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Mars Theran
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
402
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 01:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jessica Danikov wrote:I can understand the frustration at this.
Is the minimum amount on a buy order vital to the scam? Does anyone else use the minimum amount for genuine trading, and is there a justifiable reason to keep it in the game (balancing the cost of a prolific, hard to detect without experience scam against the benefit of such a feature). Seems to me if you can defeat the scam by taking out minimum amounts and it's an otherwise unused feature- as evidence by the wisdom 'if it has a minimum quantity greater than 1, it's a scam'.
The minimum amount is to prevent people from filling the order with small amounts and crashing it because they happended to have them.
The Margin Trading scam relies on products that are not commonly traded or found and have limited price history. A good scam has a price history that has been falsely manufactured by the scammer for weeks or months before the scam is run. I've fallen for one or two of these myself, and it was net billions I lost.
They can be usable items that people never use, or items that one might or can assume are collectables and will have some value to the right person. Sometimes they'll be little known items that people will assume do something because of their description.
The fact is, aside from that little tell that you might not be looking for, there isn't really any sure way to identify every Margin Trading scam. The fact that it exists also makes minimum buys impractical to use as knowing players will ignore them.
Easiest way to scrap the Margin trading scam is to create debt. The order is filled and the onus falls on the buyer. It becomes a bannable offense to recycle the alt used in the scam if that is done, and more importantly, it causes the buyer to have a negative credit limit he has to pay off if he uses his main(Trader), which I can guarantee almost all do.
The reason they use their main, is because of the skill training time to use the skill, and the lack of consequence for using that character. A failed buy order resulting from a Margin Trading scam produces no transaction history, so you can never identify the buyer.
It's not foolproof, but it's locked down and untraceable. Also, the buyer trades himself out of the required investment, so there is no ISK in the Buy order remaining when the scam is done, if done right.
I only learned about all that the hard way myself. Never have run one, and I can't imagine myself doing that, though the temptation to get a return on my losses that way has been there at times. Problem is, that the recovery of that loss would come from some other unknowing player, rather than the scammer. Personally, I think of them as thieves, but I'm sure they wouldn't like that.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Kuro Bon
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 06:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:Player 1 uses Character A to place a Buy Order in Market. Player 1 then uses Character B to sell that Item via Contract or Market order.
Player 2 then sees this and think's he can earn money by buying cheap and selling at a high price.
But because Character A from Player 1 doesn't have enough money needed for the transaction to be completed it will fail and the buy order will disappear leaving Player 2 with a worthless Item he bought at a high price.
I see. So really the problem is that "Margin Trading" is a lie, and it's not margin trading. In real stock market margin trading, you have a margin-loan (with an interest rate), and the buy order you issue is paid for by the margin loan. If the asset value in your account goes under the margin requirements (say 50% of the value of your securities), the bank starts to sell your assets for you (i.e. the margin call)..
IMO the simplest fix would be to rename the skill to "Overlapping Trades", then fix it to always cancel any orders which the player doesn't have enough ISK to individually complete. This would allow a player to place several overlapping buy orders from the same funds, in which only the first one could fill and the others would cancel. (i.e. if I had $1M ISK, I could place 3 orders each of which would cost me $1M to fill. As soon as any one of them filled, the other two would be cancelled) This would eliminate the abuse you refer to, because all sell orders you can see would be legitimate fillable orders. I think the server-load for this would be modest. Whenever a player-buy-order was filled, it would have to revalidate all that player's buy orders to make sure the player still had enough money to complete them, and cancel any outliers.
A more complicated fix would be to implement "real margin trading": the player would open a margin account, place ISK/goods into it, and borrow against that account value to place margin buy orders for more ISK than they have. This would allow them to "really margin trade", at the risk of losing their entire account value in the case of asset value drop and a real margin call. One serious challenge would be pricing the assets in the account, since EVE price averages can be manipulated. Another challenge would be preventing an exploit where you margin buy on an alt, sell at a loss to another character, and let the margin account collapse to a loss. (though this would be fixable by disallowing margin account sales significantly below market averages) 100M ISK per hour is about $3US an hour. -áIt's more efficient to work at starbucks.-á Playing the game doesn't advance skills, kinda like ProgressQuest. |
Magormor
Arch Angels Assault Force Lawful Insanity
0
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Posted - 2012.11.14 12:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Iv head some very valid points, thanks for the Input so far guys :) |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
36
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Posted - 2012.11.14 14:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
Agreed enforcing debt or causing the deposited isk to vanish (hey ISK sink) would remove a lot of the issue. |
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