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Laemel
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:03:00 -
[1]
From reading the posts of the devs, as well as people like Hippey, the justification most often given for the nerfing of medium turrets is this: "a fast frigate, while orbiting a cruiser at 500m, should be very difficult to hit with huge artillery".
Here's my assesment of Frigate/Cruiser balance: Let's say that I go buy a merlin for 210,000 isk, and you go guy a thorax for 7,250,000. That means that you have spent 34 times more money on your ship. That thorax should be able to EFFORTLESSLY CRUSH any single frigate in any situation.
If "Balance", in the way you envision it, is achieved, I am guessing that 2 or 3 frigates could take on a cruiser and win. For that system to be what I consider "Balanced", a cruiser must cost 2 to 3 times more than a frigate i.e. you get what you pay for. But do they cost 2 or 3 or even 10 times more? No. They cost 30 times more... If I pay 100 million isk for a freaking Battleship, I don't want a bunch of little-ass frigates, who cost less than a single turret on my ship, to be able to take me down
Thoughts?
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Zaphod Robotnik
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:06:00 -
[2]
And the Cruiser can indeed crush the Frigate easily. No mess, no fuss. Just requires the right loadout. Hell, in your example, a quick blast from a Smartbomb would get rid of the flyspeck Frigate!
I would suggest reading Hippey's superlative post on use of weapons post patch. It'll no doubt be an eye opener for you... --
Zaphod "Zaprobo" Robotnik President, Royal Communication Department http://eve.britishspacecorps.co.uk/http://eve.britishspacecorps |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:07:00 -
[3]
You have this huge gun strapped to your cruiser. if it hits the frigate, that lil toothpick is toast. But seeing it's so close to you the turret has trouble keeping up with its movements, you can expect to miss a lot.
If you, on the other hand, equiped yourself with a short-range blaster (small), with AM ammo, you can expect to destroy the wee lil frig.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Bon Hedus
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:14:00 -
[4]
Each ship in the game should have worth. A group of new corp members shouldn't be relegated to mining and scut work just because they are in frigates.
The fast frigate working as a group should be able to take down a cruiser if the cruiser doesn't have the correct load out.
During WW2, the PT boat had a nice role as a torpedo boat taking out larger ships. It was fast and maneuverable. This is EVE's frigate. Fast, maneuverable and flimsy. One or Two shots of a Cruiser's main guns take it out if it is unlucky. However if the Frigate gets too close so that the guns cannot bear on it, then there is trouble.
The same way either a large group of frigates harrying a Battleship or a couple Cruisers doing the same should eventually be able to take it (the Battleship) down. It is not an issue of cost difference, it is an issue of TACTICS.
Each ship in EVE should be a viable attack craft if flown correctly. Your job as a pilot is to plan accordingly and set your load-out on your ship for what you are trying to do. Most of all, bring a wing-man. -------------------------------------- "This is obviously the work of some Psycho, Weedsmoking, Voodoo Midget Aliens from Corporate America."
JC |
Laemel
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:18:00 -
[5]
You are correct that by equiping myself with smartbombs or small weapons I can be superior to a frigate... Perhaps my topic should have read ""Balance" between small and medium weapons".
Currently my cruiser is filled with small autocannons, becuase they give me the most damage per time, becuase their vastly superior tracking and rate of fire far outweigh the slightly lower damage that they do... I haven't yet seen a situation in which medium/large weapons are worth the bother. I can mount more small turrets becuase of the lower power reqs, they track FAR better (hit more often in more situations), they fire FAR faster, and they do about 2/3 the damage.
Unless I was pounding a giant stationary station from afar, I really can't see why I would use medium, or god forbid, large weapon. And yes I've read hippeys post. But tell me, what is a situation where the terrible tracking, requirements, and RoF of medium turrets are outweighed by their slightly better damage?
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Laemel
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:24:00 -
[6]
"Each ship in EVE should be a viable attack craft if flown correctly."
I strongly disagree with this... The only way that I WOULD agree with it is if ships all cost about the same. I don't think that 1 frigate vs. 1 cruiser should EVER be a fair fight unless the frigate and the cruiser cost within 200% of each other (i.e. the cruiser cost no more than twice as much as the frigate). But when cruisers cost 30 times more than frigates, I really don't think that 1 or 2 frigates should have a chance against it, regardless (to some extent) of how they are equiped.
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Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:24:00 -
[7]
People are too fixed on the levelling mentality of MMOGs, all they thing is Frigate - Cruiser - Battleship - Titan, an ascending series of "levels", and just like a regular MMOG, they own anything beneath them.
I don't think EVE is actually meant to be like that, it's about tactical warfare using fleets of ships, with dedicated tasks that together make a force to be reckoned with.
x a n e |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:25:00 -
[8]
Your initial argument is "i was foolish enough to waste huge gobs of cash on something i don't understand the workings of, therefore by virtue of the huge gobs of cash alone should i always win everything."
i mean >>That thorax should be able to EFFORTLESSLY CRUSH any single frigate in any situation.<<
uh - no, nothing should be able to EFFORTLESSLY CRUSH IN ANY SITUATION anything. Why play this game? Wtf??? You wanna effortlessly crush stuff go hack CS or play moo3 vs. the CPU, fer pete's sake.
I mean come ON. Other people have been nice enough to attempt to reason with you. You still don't seem to get it, however.
This is not a cash simulation. The idea is to reward clever players, not simply automagically grant Awesome Godlike Power if you've been here long enough.
There's so much wrong with your thinking i don't even know where to begin; the outcome of a fight should be determined by the fight itself, not the entry fee you paid. Think of it as a bet, and as you advance the stakes get higher...
i don't supposed you'd considered how much fun you'd have if every battleship you encountered instakilled you and you had NO chance of winning? What the hell kinda simulation is "guaranteed 0 chance?" I mean where'd you get this idea that "bigger must always win or my worldview shatters?" There's no fun or room for thinking, or strategy, or skill in EFFORTLESSLY CRUSH. Good grief, why play if you have a guaranteed win or loss? You might as well just IM each other.
Captain1: I have a Megathron. Captain2: oh dag, i have a Blackbird. You win.
Yikes.
Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 04/07/2003 19:27:51
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
spankyster
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:25:00 -
[9]
Here's my assesment of Frigate/Cruiser balance: Let's say that I go buy a merlin for 210,000 isk, and you go guy a thorax for 7,250,000. That means that you have spent 34 times more money on your ship. That thorax should be able to EFFORTLESSLY CRUSH any single frigate in any situation
I guess in real world terms that would mean that a guy with 1500 buck RPG cant blow the hell out a 2.0 million dollar tank since the tank costs so much more it has to be invunerable ? cost means nothing
what will kill you easier a zillion dollar weapon of infinite doom or a knife in your heart ?
perhaps cruisers and battleships should start sailing with "SUPPORT SHIPS" and have them deal with the little stuff while you concetrate on what your designed for doing massive damage to massive ships
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NO MERCY
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:28:00 -
[10]
"People are too fixed on the levelling mentality of MMOGs, all they thing is Frigate - Cruiser - Battleship - Titan, an ascending series of "levels", and just like a regular MMOG, they own anything beneath them."
You are correct to some extent that that is my mentality... But it's not just because of me, it's becuase of the pricing structures. If frigates, cruisers, and battleships are all going to be viable ships in a serious PvP fight, (and I think that would be great, don't get me wrong) then they need to be REMOTELY similar in price. A corp could work for months trying to get a battleship blueprint, but for what? If their battleships are going to get taken out by 10 merlins that the corp could have been able to afford in 1 days work, what's the point of working towards these massively expensive ships?
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Guilbert
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:52:00 -
[11]
frigates gainst battleships- well if u put your BS out with some escort wheres the big deal about those 10 Frigates? put up 9 frigates as escort and they can even come with 20 frigates and you will own them. but if you think your shiny BS is invulnerable all alone then you will bleed thats just how it is!
frigates gainst cruiser- if a moron actually flys the cruiser and lettin the frigate get so close to make dmg ofcourse he will fail.. just one webbing and another targetting disrupter and there goes the frigate cause they dont have any slots for counter measures.. one frigate will still only own a cruiser if the cruiser pilot is sleepin or retarded..
Mess with the best.. ..and die like the rest |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.07.04 19:54:00 -
[12]
Solution: Webifier, warp-jam, orbit at 10km and enjoy some frigate patÚ on a lightly grilled capsule loaf.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.07.04 20:45:00 -
[13]
Now nobody take this the wrong way OK? Wasn't a US destroyer seriously damaged by some guys in an inflatable loaded with explosives a couple of years ago?
Big ships are vulnerable to the right sort of attack - end of story.
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Derran
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Posted - 2003.07.04 21:43:00 -
[14]
I think the other issue also becomes is lone miner goes spend the money on his next frigate that he just spent all kinds of time working up towards only to get it destroyed and podded in a couple of seconds before he can react by some person in their cruiser who just felt like blowing him up for no reason. That sound familiar to anyone? That isn't exactly fair. I wanted to join the game to get away from the 'bigger is better' mentality of the other games, such as ones where you level, find/buy the newest and badest unique artifact, etc.
Also, has anyone ever actually tried to take down a cruiser with a frigate? Or a lone cruiser against a battleship? And I don't care what anyone says but I can't see a lone frigate or even two taking down a battleship. And it isn't like the weapons you have are going to do much against the shields and armor and not give the bigger ship time react to defend itself. At least now I actually have to THINK about how I arm my ship instead of jumping on the bandwagon in an effort to compete with everyone else, or equip myself to suit a role that would now be needed in a fleet. I can also now play with the other slots on my cruiser due to having power that is no longer eaten up by all the power intensive weapons.
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Mungis
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Posted - 2003.07.04 21:50:00 -
[15]
Oh the irony
In the frenzy to squelch a legitimate argument... the trolls missed the entire point of the post. (Bad Harlequin leading the incoherent pack)
It should not be acceptable for Medium weapons to be inferior to Small weapons. If you took a moment of your time to actually perform some simple arithmetic you would figure this out. Unfortunately, you jump right on the bandwagon of what a ôshipö should be.
One could easily argue that a bigger, more expensive, cruiser might have superior tracking computers. Is that such a far stretch?
Your pathetic attempt to point out incompetence in the initial post was a ploy to hide your own illogical argument. No one was arguing whether or not a cruiser could be fitted with a frigate-killing load out. This was never the point.
And if you think this game isnÆt about ôhuge gobs of cashö you are absolutely wrong.
Most of the changes (i.e.: container creation, ôcombat timeö, and pirate nerfing came about because a player owned corp. was DOMINATING and wrecking the MONEY scheme of CCP
If that doesnÆt smack of cashà I donÆt know what does.
PS as far as little ships owning bigger ones... just take a look at the Phalanx Gatling Guns on the USA cruiser fleet...
you are going to tell me these shouldn't "dominate" a missle or frigate?
Edited by: Mungis on 04/07/2003 21:57:49 |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.04 21:56:00 -
[16]
<<It should not be acceptable for Medium weapons to be inferior to Small weapons>>
I have a 9mm handgun, you have a Howitzer. I run around in circles around you, shooting.
Who will win?
I will..
On the other hand, if I was 500 metres away, running at you, you'd have the advantage.
Tracking computers won't help. It's the sheer size of the gun that matters.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:02:00 -
[17]
I still don't see what the disparity is. I wanted to go test out if what everyone said was true and intentionally flew into a group of npc frigates at close range and started shooting... result : me 5 them 0
I barely lost even 1/7th of my shields...
I have only 1 small sized gun, the other 3 are the monster sized ones that hit for a heck of alot of dmg. They had no trouble picking a frigate out of the air around me.
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Setec
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:05:00 -
[18]
Cruisers are still vastly better than frigates overall, and with many different loadouts and strategies they can totally crush a frigate instantly. I like the change--makes things more strategic. ___________________________________________
Space Invaders website: http://www.si-corp.net |
Mungis
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:06:00 -
[19]
Using your analogy
If you are telling me that my nerfed 250 mm prototype and 425 ... err 650 scout does the damage of a real life howitzer then you are smoking stuff that we can't even dream of obtaining where I live.
Nerfing the tracking is one thing... raping the damage is another entirely.
And don't even start with the "nooob noob, u are using anti matter... noob noob"
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:09:00 -
[20]
They didn't nerf the damage. It was a bug that caused it to do that much damage in the first place. Those guns still do way more damage than smaller weapons. They just don't track as well at close range. But then Projectile weapons like the 650s never were any good at close range anyway.
If you were really using antimatter with the 650s I'd like to see you load it in the gun... heh. Anyway its all about optimal range now. Find the sweetspot.
Edited by: MoonDragn on 04/07/2003 22:17:38
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Mungis
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:14:00 -
[21]
once again,
back to kindi math
small turrets now do more damage over time at any range then medium.
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:21:00 -
[22]
What level is your medium weapon skill mungus? what level is your small?
I don't see any weapon that does more dmg small than medium out there.
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Derran
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:30:00 -
[23]
What kind of ammo are you using? Medium ammo is still about double the damage of small. And don't medium turrets have about double the range of small (I'm at work so I can't check). I never did more damage with my small turrets against cruisers than I do with my mediums over further distance. I have seen how damage types can be a factor though (explosive damage against shields is bad). Also, don't those cheaper end medium sized weapons have better tracking speed than the higher damage capable ones?
Edited by: Derran on 04/07/2003 22:44:08
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Vidar Kentoran
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:46:00 -
[24]
This isn't a linear levelling MMORPG. Just because something costs more doesn't mean it's better in all situations.
Why should it be? Such an attitude results from nothing but warped minds from too many one-dimensional games.
Welcome to a real game.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.07.04 23:50:00 -
[25]
There is no point in arguing this one out peeps. I'm pretty certain we can all see the people who paid 8 mill for 4 "leet" guns and they're unhappy now - understandably.
Doesn't change the fact they were quite frankly dumb to do that - I wasn't on the beta and it took about 2 hours for me to realise that there were no range or tracking mods in place. I spent around 30 seconds thinking "is it going to stay like this long enough for me to get some use out of 2 mill+ guns" and I decided it wasn't. I still bought medium multi crystals as they were good at the time (and still are at ranges around 10km).
Adapt or die :)
PS - I do think that CCP ought to have given some consideration about setting all "pirates" to a sec rating of -5.0 before the massive influx of cops/guns (applies to pirates with a sec rating of greater than -5.0). This would at least have given some of them the option of adapting their character - right now they are stuck being pirates forever.....
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.05 00:06:00 -
[26]
They have 3 character slots agriz, they are not stuck doing anything forever. Most of their characters were geared towards combat anyway if they wanted to play the other aspects of eve they could easily build up characters for that.
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