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Angeal MacNova
LankTech
1
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Posted - 2012.10.11 21:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just bit of an issue I've noticed....
I stick with Amarr tech so pardon my ignorance toward the other race ships....
They have a 50% reduction in MWD sig penalty which seems to hint that they should have one BUT should they?
The weapons of choice, with the exception of beam, would leave them within web range and warp scram which has a jam strength of 2 vs the disruptor with just 1.
So in order for them to either A) get within range to tackle or B) get within range to simply do any damage, their MWD is guaranteed to be shut down and be webbed on top of that. Easily popped in one or two volleys by anything bigger than a cruiser including T1 BCs
The thing is, that while they seem to be better suited to tackle, they both get weapon buffs which, when paired with the MWD makes it seem that they were designed for speed tanking during close range combat.
I'm probably just missing something entirely about this whole thing....
Maybe change one from rocket to light missile while the other gets a greater bonus to small lasers but only beams. This way, they could speed tank from anywhere between the 15 to 25km range and if you are within 20km you can equip a warpcore stab counter the effects of any disruptor sent. |
Goldensaver
Vorbild Industries Inc. State Section 9
23
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Posted - 2012.10.11 21:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Retribution actually kites quite well within 20km with pulse lasers due to the range bonus and Scorch.
The Vengeance and Hawk, not so much.
The Harpy is typically a blaster boat, but I think that rails would work decently on it.
Enyo and Ishkur can work at range, or up close from what I've seen.
I hear that Wolf's and Jaguar's will kite with arties in some fits, but I rarely see them, so no comment.
But some are better with AB's, some are better with MWD's. |
Garrick Amorr
Genstar Inc Villore Accords
0
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Posted - 2012.10.11 22:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well part of the usefullness of a MWD is to close distance quickly as well. Most assault frigs can't kite reasonably well except the Vengeance and Hawk. But those two have excellent tanks. I've had very fun 2v1 and 3v1 fights with a Vengeance against frigs and came out well or at least died with honor in tact, lol. Actually Enyos should be blaster fit too. They don't have as good of tanks, but they put a hurtin on stuff quick.
TBH, assault ships are best used against other frigs and assault ships. Certain cruisers as well. They make good heavy tackle in fleets mainly because they don't get targeted over the bigger stuff. I personally think AFs best role in fleets to take out frig support. You can take out a ton of frigs and other AFs and cruisers in fleets because they're usually paying attention to trying to tackling.
I think they're mostly ok and the reduction in MWD sig is very useful in fleets when you're playing the role I just mentioned. And they can close the distance to tackle without getting alpha'd because of the reduced sig and a better tank than interceptors and frigs. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
629
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Posted - 2012.10.11 22:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Angeal MacNova wrote:Just bit of an issue I've noticed....
I stick with Amarr tech so pardon my ignorance toward the other race ships....
They have a 50% reduction in MWD sig penalty which seems to hint that they should have one BUT should they?
The weapons of choice, with the exception of beam, would leave them within web range and warp scram which has a jam strength of 2 vs the disruptor with just 1.
So in order for them to either A) get within range to tackle or B) get within range to simply do any damage, their MWD is guaranteed to be shut down and be webbed on top of that. Easily popped in one or two volleys by anything bigger than a cruiser including T1 BCs
The thing is, that while they seem to be better suited to tackle, they both get weapon buffs which, when paired with the MWD makes it seem that they were designed for speed tanking during close range combat.
I'm probably just missing something entirely about this whole thing....
Maybe change one from rocket to light missile while the other gets a greater bonus to small lasers but only beams. This way, they could speed tank from anywhere between the 15 to 25km range and if you are within 20km you can equip a warpcore stab counter the effects of any disruptor sent.
Greetings, you come across as new to PvP... It is EXTREMELY rare that someone would fit a Warp Core Stab to their PvP ship...
The MWD bonus helps some AF's get in range of a target quickly without being easily pummelled by medium and large weapons. Many setups don't utilize this bonus, but many setups rely on it to mitigate damage. During the AF buffs of the last year, AF's also received other more relevant bonuses to bring them in line with tech 2 hulls. The MWD bonus is like icing on the cake, and is generally viewed as a good thing!
They experimented with an AB bonus instead, but it had "issues", and the MWD bonus works well.
In short, use the MWD bonus when appropriate. It's good for some setups, it's useless for other setups, but even when it's not utilized, the AF's are in a nice happy place at the moment... |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
118
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Posted - 2012.10.12 00:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Many of the Assault ships use MWD's
For example the Veng brawls so well that it does not need an ab
Just mwd to get into range, web to stay there and pew. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
24
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Posted - 2012.10.12 01:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
the MWD was a bonus added to make AF's more viable. A common complaint was they were in general too slow for tackle duty. A duty which they had to do from time to time. the MWD bonus allows them to run MWD and not be lit up like a x-mas tree with sig bloom.
I would have preferred an actual bonus like what was killed pre-dominion sisi testing (it was admittedly abused, like 10mn AB fit AF's) since it basically got a half assed inty bonus slapped on it but at least they cared enough to try and fix them somehow eventually.
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Angeal MacNova
LankTech
1
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Posted - 2012.10.12 03:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm very new to pvp and would like to get more involved with it.
The medium and large guns are the problem I was hoping too avoid. They lack the tracking speed that small weapons have but make up for it in range and damage. Two things that become mute if you can't be tracked.
I just don't see getting in close the solution...
From my understanding, and I could be quite wrong, is that there is no "minimum range" other than that things that are closer orbit faster and the guns can't track. Optimum range is basically the max range you still do max damage making it the sweet spot since your guns will have an easier time tracking farther targets. Then you have the falloff which is the range beyond optimum where you being to do less damage the farther the target gets.
This being said, you get within range and bam
MWD shut down 90% speed reduction
You can be on top of them and so long as they are trying to keep range instead of orbit and your orbit velocity around them become nill allowing those bigger guns to hit you no problem. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
232
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Posted - 2012.10.12 04:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
really, not everyone runs a warp scram because of its limited range, but you are right, getting hit with one of those isnt great.
Try a dual prop vengeance for some fun.
[Vengeance, WH tackle] Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 100mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1MN Afterburner II Upgraded 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Small Ancillary Current Router I
This is quite the tough little ship, it doesnt do a ton of DPS but it tackles just about anything it needs to. Even dual neut hurricanes cant get away from this thing cause the nos keeps the scram and AB running
Also have you ever been in a battleship trying to hit a smaller ship?
I once tanked two tempests at close range with a single AB ishkur; its way harder than it looks on paper, but it can be done. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
118
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Posted - 2012.10.12 04:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sigras wrote:really, not everyone runs a warp scram because of its limited range, but you are right, getting hit with one of those isnt great.
Try a dual prop vengeance for some fun.
[Vengeance, WH tackle] Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 100mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1MN Afterburner II Upgraded 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Small Ancillary Current Router I
This is quite the tough little ship, it doesnt do a ton of DPS but it tackles just about anything it needs to. Even dual neut hurricanes cant get away from this thing cause the nos keeps the scram and AB running
Also have you ever been in a battleship trying to hit a smaller ship?
I once tanked two tempests at close range with a single AB ishkur; its way harder than it looks on paper, but it can be done.
Web is better unless you're fighting bc's
Lets you use Rage rockets on dessies and AF's |
Kai'rae Saarkus
Ganja Labs Exodus.
13
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Posted - 2012.10.12 08:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Sigras wrote:really, not everyone runs a warp scram because of its limited range, but you are right, getting hit with one of those isnt great.
Try a dual prop vengeance for some fun.
[Vengeance, WH tackle] Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 100mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1MN Afterburner II Upgraded 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Small Ancillary Current Router I
This is quite the tough little ship, it doesnt do a ton of DPS but it tackles just about anything it needs to. Even dual neut hurricanes cant get away from this thing cause the nos keeps the scram and AB running
Also have you ever been in a battleship trying to hit a smaller ship?
I once tanked two tempests at close range with a single AB ishkur; its way harder than it looks on paper, but it can be done. Web is better unless you're fighting bc's Lets you use Rage rockets on dessies and AF's
Web and a SARII in the lows is better in all situations.
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King Rothgar
Black Watch Guard
314
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Posted - 2012.10.12 10:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
I can't remember the last time I fitted a MWD to an AF. They are almost exclusively AB ships, the MWD business is for inties and some of the faction frigs. So I agree it's a pointless bonus. Fortunately, the ships as is are solid even with the pointless role bonus, so it's not really an issue imho.
On a related note, yes the retribution works well with a MWD kiting fit but the slicer is even better at it. The Troll is trolling. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
137
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Posted - 2012.10.12 10:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
In general there are three strategies how to fit an assault ship:
- Kiting, which means long point with weapons which you can use up to 24 km. For this an MWD is a must have. The idea is to stay outside web/scram of the enemy and simply kill him slowly. Benefit: you can run easily if necessary, however your tank is usually not strong and you die in case you get scrammed by something faster than you.
- Fast brawler, which means short point and short range high DPS weapons. For this an MWD and AB are must haves. The idea is to use MWD to get the scram as fast as possible on the enemy and then use the AB to control range / stay outside his guns. Benefit: good chance to catch a prey, however running away can be though.
- Tanky brawler, means short point, web and high DPS including good tank. For this you usually just have an AB. The idea is to wait until something comes into your range and then kill him. Benefit: Good tank, good dps however vulnerability against kiters and troubles getting something into your fighting range.
As you can see from the above, the MWD bonus is useful for two out of the three strategies. |
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