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Stegas Tyrano
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
5
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Posted - 2012.10.01 15:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
+1 Might make them more viable for PVP. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
113
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Posted - 2012.10.07 17:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
Given the new changes coming to AI this change may be necessary for sentry drones to even be somewhat usable in pve. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
114
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Posted - 2012.10.09 16:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
Bump |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
777
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Posted - 2012.10.09 17:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
Stegas Tyrano wrote:+1 Might make them more viable for PVP.
They already are.
To Ranger1: The problem I can see with having sentries capable of moving around, is their tracking is already bad. Tracking would need to be increased to compensate which risks making them overpowered. Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
115
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Posted - 2012.10.09 23:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Stegas Tyrano wrote:+1 Might make them more viable for PVP. They already are. To Ranger1: The problem I can see with having sentries capable of moving around, is their tracking is already bad. Tracking would need to be increased to compensate which risks making them overpowered.
which is why I simply suggest that there are able to move, but not fire and move. This basically means that you can drop them and tell them to shoot, but the only movement option they have is back to your ship. |
ColdCutz
Pwny Nation
37
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Posted - 2012.10.12 06:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
I would like to hear some feedback from the CSM or devs on this; I know they're reading this stuff. It's a superb idea that should be seriously taken into consideration as part of a major drone overhaul, if CCP has any plans for that sort of thing. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
123
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Posted - 2012.10.12 17:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Well, its good to know im getting plenty of support on this.
Now, if we could just keep this thread on the first page for longer than 5 minutes with all those damn stickies in the way |
A8ina
Celestial Argonauts HELL4S
13
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Posted - 2012.10.12 19:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
also nice if the drones ones diploid the repel eats other shaping an X to 10k apart and when recalled for pick up the start getting closer to center drone |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
124
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Posted - 2012.10.12 21:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
A8ina wrote:also nice if the drones ones diploid the repel eats other shaping an X to 10k apart and when recalled for pick up the start getting closer to center drone
That would be nice |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
125
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Posted - 2012.10.12 22:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'm getting a lot of likes, but ya gotta comment if you want this idea to go anywhere. |
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Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
7
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Posted - 2012.10.13 04:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
+1 for thinking of a possible solution. While I don't quite like the idea of them moving too fast, i'd love some motion so they could move the 500 meters back into scoop range. If they have a set speed when they're "packed up" i'd say half the speed of a heavy drone so they're still functioning as "sentries"--imobile warriors. I think this thread is going to open up some good ideas, hopefully it'll get noticed by the devs.
i'd been thinking on my own about how to work around the issue of sentries being just out of scoop range, and my solution was give them a fixed speed of 5 or 10 meters per second, that way you can orbit them, or if you get bumped or are in motion when you deploy them they can slowly work their way back to you and not have you waste valuable seconds. That idea was for convenience, not tactical reasons though. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
127
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Posted - 2012.10.13 05:12:00 -
[42] - Quote
Leskit wrote:+1 for thinking of a possible solution. While I don't quite like the idea of them moving too fast, i'd love some motion so they could move the 500 meters back into scoop range. If they have a set speed when they're "packed up" i'd say half the speed of a heavy drone so they're still functioning as "sentries"--imobile warriors. I think this thread is going to open up some good ideas, hopefully it'll get noticed by the devs. i'd been thinking on my own about how to work around the issue of sentries being just out of scoop range, and my solution was give them a fixed speed of 5 or 10 meters per second, that way you can orbit them, or if you get bumped or are in motion when you deploy them they can slowly work their way back to you and not have you waste valuable seconds. That idea was for convenience, not tactical reasons though.
yeah, my suggestion is both convenience and tactical.
With the changes to AI coming up, if they're not given mobility in some form than no one will use them. However, if you make them able to fly and shoot, there's no point in heavies.
That said though, heavies have been lacking for a while anyway.
hob gob II - 3360m/s
Ham Head II - 1680m/s
Ogre II - 840m/s
Bouncer II - Immobile
My plans
hobs - 3360m/s
hams - 2200m/s
Ogres - 1100m/s
sentries - 400m/s with 5 second packaging and unpackaging delay, and cannot fly to anything but your own ship. If you tell hem to engage target, they will unpack(if not already unpacked) and engag the target from their current location.
The only way to reposition them is to is to call them back to your ship and stop them while in route..
Also, a higher velocity on heavies will also make them more viable. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
120
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Posted - 2012.10.13 05:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:Kaikka Carel wrote:The idea is nice but why are you against the idea of mobility?
How about them orbiting the host ship and firing at enemies from there? No one has to be stationary and you can change the optimal range dinamically by commanding your drones to assist allies.
Seems more legit for PVP scenarios. WHY U NO Heavy drones ? Heavy drones are the mobile equivalent to sentries. They even do a little bit more damage IIRC. There is no need for mobile sentries. You don't like them? Don't use them. Edit: Yes I do use sentries.
TBH heavies are ****. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
127
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 06:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:Kaikka Carel wrote:The idea is nice but why are you against the idea of mobility?
How about them orbiting the host ship and firing at enemies from there? No one has to be stationary and you can change the optimal range dinamically by commanding your drones to assist allies.
Seems more legit for PVP scenarios. WHY U NO Heavy drones ? Heavy drones are the mobile equivalent to sentries. They even do a little bit more damage IIRC. There is no need for mobile sentries. You don't like them? Don't use them. Edit: Yes I do use sentries. TBH heavies are ****.
Yes they are, however, that's because they're so slow. An increase in their velocity like I've suggested should help. |
Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
7
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Posted - 2012.10.13 06:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote: That said though, heavies have been lacking for a while anyway.
hob gob II - 3360m/s
Ham Head II - 1680m/s
Ogre II - 840m/s
Bouncer II - Immobile
My plans
hobs - 3360m/s
hams - 2200m/s
Ogres - 1100m/s
sentries - 400m/s with 5 second packaging and unpackaging delay, and cannot fly to anything but your own ship. If you tell hem to engage target, they will unpack(if not already unpacked) and engag the target from their current location.
The only way to reposition them is to is to call them back to your ship and stop them while in route..
Also, a higher velocity on heavies will also make them more viable.
Medium drones are fast enough I feel, they add a not-insignificant amount of dps to many battlecruisers. Other than ships like the vexor, pilgrim/curse, medium drones are rarely the primary means of damage. Heavies are to slow to arrive and apply dps, so I would endorse a speed buff, although 20% faster may be too much for a first round buff, but we're not devs playing with how it would all work out :P Maybe a bonus to drone speed could also be applied to drone bonused ships? hmm...
I don't use heavies so I can't speak to their innafectiveness, but when they only do like 15 more dps than their racial sentry drone, something is definitly out of whack; either buff the short range (heavy) dps, or nerf the sentry damage (possibly a little of both). It puzzles me when a sentry ishtar gets just over 700dps with Ogre I's and just under 700 with Garde II's (passive shield tank, 3 damage mods, not a real pvp fit, I know). The tracking difference only makes a difference up close, which I suppose is the point.
I'm not convinced on 400 m/s, BUT if they have to pack and unpack, then that's a healthy trade off. they'll keep up with afterburning battleships at least. This would also make it harder to avoid sentries in camps, and places like the alliance tourny where you need to drop them pretty close to the middle to get a good sphere of coverage.
The more specific you get the more i'm warming to the idea. I hope CCP gets to evening out all weapon systems (re: NOT nerfing the frick out them) Drones need love; not really extra dps, but more functionality, which this helps with.
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Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
7
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Posted - 2012.10.13 06:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Upon thinking more about this more, I think the 400 m/s ish speed would help a bit with making crusier sized drone boats a possibility in pvp. If they're not tied to a spot, they can serve a tactical purpose, not just dps. If the ship and drones can move, you have a much more dynamic situation and it's (slightly) harder to destroy the damage of drone boats. My vengeance snacked on drones all the time, and having a stationary target makes it harder for cruisers and larger to just alpha sentries. Needing more smartbombs or dedicated drone killers adds another layer to the game that I'd welcome. Less emphasis on the FOTM ship, mroe varied fleet composition. |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
195
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Posted - 2012.10.13 07:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
I like them as they are. Stay near them and you can call them back in an instant. If you disconnect you seldom lose them. They don't need to be mobile, esp. the Caladari ones that shoot 80km before falloff. Furthermore, stationary drones can be used in a variety of ways, esp. with the new Tristan coming out.
-1
Use heavies if you want mobility. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1333
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Posted - 2012.10.13 10:39:00 -
[48] - Quote
All sentries need is a 5 or even 10 km scoop range.
This would mean you can recall them all when orbiting one at 500m and not have one or two outside scoop range, or even pre-align out at low speed for a moment.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
128
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 14:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
Obsidiana wrote:I like them as they are. Stay near them and you can call them back in an instant. If you disconnect you seldom lose them. They don't need to be mobile, esp. the Caladari ones that shoot 80km before falloff. Furthermore, stationary drones can be used in a variety of ways, esp. with the new Tristan coming out.
-1
Use heavies if you want mobility.
It's not combat mobility, it's merely utility mobility.
They can only move in order to be brought back to your ship. Other than that, they're stationary.
Now, with the upcoming AI changes something like this may be necessary in order to make them usable. It may even help their effctiveness in pvp...
Also, this keeps the player from being stuck in a stationary position if you want to recover your drones. |
Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
7
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Posted - 2012.10.13 23:35:00 -
[50] - Quote
Instead of reworking the whole drone system, this idea could also work:
Roime wrote:All sentries need is a 5 or even 10 km scoop range.
This would mean you can recall them all when orbiting one at 500m and not have one or two outside scoop range, or even pre-align out at low speed for a moment.
A step between a very low constant speed and the original idea. Another possibility to think about. |
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ColdCutz
Pwny Nation
37
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Posted - 2012.10.14 20:30:00 -
[51] - Quote
Leskit wrote:Instead of reworking the whole drone system, this idea could also work: Roime wrote:All sentries need is a 5 or even 10 km scoop range.
This would mean you can recall them all when orbiting one at 500m and not have one or two outside scoop range, or even pre-align out at low speed for a moment.
A step between a very low constant speed and the original idea. Another possibility to think about. That's more of a band-aid to be honest, but sure it's worth thinking about; point of fact the whole drone system does need to be reworked. Still it doesn't make any sense for the sentry to be instantly scooped up from 10km away. That's where the OP's idea benefits: by handling retrieval distances at any magnitude and introducing packing delay + travel time there is a continual animation down to the current scoop range. |
Seranova Farreach
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
14
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Posted - 2012.10.15 18:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
yeah static sentrys is a little meh, maybe deployed sentrys should stay with ship and move with ship not move away from the ship. |
poppeteer
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.10.16 01:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
So,
Wouldn't any deploy/recall delay be a straight dps nerf? Does sentries slowboating it back compensate for that nerf? Won't you lose a hell of a lot more drones with a recall delay? Won't switchin flights of sentries on demand become a total pain in the arse?
Not really liking this idea at all. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
133
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 04:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
poppeteer wrote:So,
Wouldn't any deploy/recall delay be a straight dps nerf? Does sentries slowboating it back compensate for that nerf? Won't you lose a hell of a lot more drones with a recall delay? Won't switchin flights of sentries on demand become a total pain in the arse?
Not really liking this idea at all.
1) it would not reduce their dps. They would have a longer engagement time on dps, but their dps would still be the same.
2) if you are within range of the drones they would still be an instant scoop. However, if you're orbiting like many people do, than this not only makes retrieving drones faster, but also gets rid of the issue of having to approach each drone individually.
3) if you stay within range of your sentries, again, they would still be instant recovery.
4) if you like to orbit your drones, this could potentially save the lives of many sentries, not to mention that when they're mobile, they're a less vulnerable target.
5) this would also give you a tactical advantage in allowing you to position your drones farther apart while being able to recover them much easier. This would also help to make sentries more viable for pvp because they wouldn't be stacked right on top of each other within smart bomb range. On top of that, situating drones in this manner would also mean that if the target got right on top of one, then at least 2 of them would still have the target at optimal, which isn't possible with their current design. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1347
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 07:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
ColdCutz wrote:Leskit wrote:Instead of reworking the whole drone system, this idea could also work: Roime wrote:All sentries need is a 5 or even 10 km scoop range.
This would mean you can recall them all when orbiting one at 500m and not have one or two outside scoop range, or even pre-align out at low speed for a moment.
A step between a very low constant speed and the original idea. Another possibility to think about. That's more of a band-aid to be honest, but sure it's worth thinking about; point of fact the whole drone system does need to be reworked. Still it doesn't make any sense for the sentry to be instantly scooped up from 10km away. That's where the OP's idea benefits: by handling retrieval distances at any magnitude and introducing packing delay + travel time there is a continual animation down to the current scoop range.
The any distance (inside drone control range) part is what I find problematic- sentries are imho among the most powerful subcapital weapons in game. Selectable damage type with very short switch time, long range, great tracking. You can already execute some very neat fast-switching tricks from sentries to other drones due to the "reconnect to lost drones"-function, and have great versatility in placing your "turrets" on the battlefield- which comes at the cost of the possibility of losing your sentries. This is why I'd be cautious in altering the basic operation principle of static sentry drones. OP's idea is really nice and I would selfishly welcome it, but it just might tip the scales to sentries being OP.
I personally treat all drones as consumables, and keep considerable stockpiles of all drones. Yeah, if you lose a set in combat it might hinder your ability to win, but such is the nature of combat, you don't always win.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
poppeteer
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 11:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:poppeteer wrote:So,
Wouldn't any deploy/recall delay be a straight dps nerf? Does sentries slowboating it back compensate for that nerf? Won't you lose a hell of a lot more drones with a recall delay? Won't switchin flights of sentries on demand become a total pain in the arse?
Not really liking this idea at all. 1) it would not reduce their dps. They would have a longer engagement time on dps, but their dps would still be the same. 2) if you are within range of the drones they would still be an instant scoop. However, if you're orbiting like many people do, than this not only makes retrieving drones faster, but also gets rid of the issue of having to approach each drone individually. 3) if you stay within range of your sentries, again, they would still be instant recovery. 4) if you like to orbit your drones, this could potentially save the lives of many sentries, not to mention that when they're mobile, they're a less vulnerable target. 5) this would also give you a tactical advantage in allowing you to position your drones farther apart while being able to recover them much easier. This would also help to make sentries more viable for pvp because they wouldn't be stacked right on top of each other within smart bomb range. On top of that, situating drones in this manner would also mean that if the target got right on top of one, then at least 2 of them would still have the target at optimal, which isn't possible with their current design.
"That is, they somewhat have a deployed mode.
When they're deployed, they can fire freely.
Whenever you tell them to engage a target or assist a friendly, the automatically go into deployed mode.
Now, when you recall them, they have a somewhat packing up effect.
While they're doing this they cannot fire on targets."
The OP does not agree with your current post... |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
134
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 14:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
poppeteer wrote:HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:poppeteer wrote:So,
Wouldn't any deploy/recall delay be a straight dps nerf? Does sentries slowboating it back compensate for that nerf? Won't you lose a hell of a lot more drones with a recall delay? Won't switchin flights of sentries on demand become a total pain in the arse?
Not really liking this idea at all. 1) it would not reduce their dps. They would have a longer engagement time on dps, but their dps would still be the same. 2) if you are within range of the drones they would still be an instant scoop. However, if you're orbiting like many people do, than this not only makes retrieving drones faster, but also gets rid of the issue of having to approach each drone individually. 3) if you stay within range of your sentries, again, they would still be instant recovery. 4) if you like to orbit your drones, this could potentially save the lives of many sentries, not to mention that when they're mobile, they're a less vulnerable target. 5) this would also give you a tactical advantage in allowing you to position your drones farther apart while being able to recover them much easier. This would also help to make sentries more viable for pvp because they wouldn't be stacked right on top of each other within smart bomb range. On top of that, situating drones in this manner would also mean that if the target got right on top of one, then at least 2 of them would still have the target at optimal, which isn't possible with their current design. "Whenever you tell them to engage a target or assist a friendly, the automatically go into deployed mode.
Now, when you recall them, they have a somewhat packing up effect.
While they're doing this they cannot fire on targets.
...
So, launch sentries, engage target (with 5 second unpackage delay), orbit your sentries while they blast the target, kill target, recal sentries (5 second packaging delay), then they fly back to your ship."The OP does not agree with your current post. ... 1. A longer engagement time, by definition, means less dps. 2. Currently, I can retrieve stray drones in < 5 seconds. Your 5 second recall lockout + slowboat timing nerfs me. 3. Not as per OP. 4. Wat? See my response to 3. You're making me take a minimum of 5 seconds to recall sentries I'm orbiting, when I can currently do that in less time? How could that possibly save drones? Also, in general currently, 'mobile drones' are *more* vulnerable a target (sig bloom, comin' right at ya alpha me bro, slow boating on the road to home again). 5. You are projecting the recovery 'bonus' beyond its benefits. Are you really going to (effectively) wait 30 seconds to position your drones nicely (while the other guy waits patiently for you), limiting your dps to <50% on average for that period, just so a smart bomb doesn't ruin your day? You've already lost.
1) no it doesn't. If that were the case missiles would have less dps.. They don't. It takes longer to engage the target, but once it's engaged your dps kicks in to full effect.
2) Again, if you're within range of the drones they would still be an instant scoop, you would not have to wait on the packaging delay.
3) I'll add this to the OP when I have time.
4) Lets say you're in a gila orbitting your sentries at 20 km. You would need to be going over 2km/s in order to retrieve your drones in less than 5 seconds. In order to fit a gila to this capability you would lose either dps or tank. So, yes this would help you to retrieve drones faster. Again though, sentries would only be able to go from the position you set them, back to your ship. So, the angle of which they travel based on your targets is based on your ships position. They could fly directly at the enemy, away from the enemy, or even at a 90 degree angel. Also, sentries would not be fitted with mwd, so they wouldn't have a sig bloom.
5) What I stated there was more of a planning for an attack rather than attacking, however, if you're in a gila or ishtar this is not entirely impossible and could possibly be a wise strategic decision. Also, any tactic is better than no tactic. |
poppeteer
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.10.18 03:44:00 -
[58] - Quote
We're not going to agree on this. I will say two things.
1. Regarding your example for #4, it won't work. Your sentries will never be able to make it back to you if you simply issue a recall order while still orbiting @20k @Highspeed. They would just end up doing little circles inside of your big circles.
2. I know 'my dps' is 'my dps'. If I cannot APPLY that dps for greater portions of a battle then my 'dps for that battle' is reduced.
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Lugia3
Shydow Imperium
36
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Posted - 2012.10.18 20:01:00 -
[59] - Quote
+1
As an experienced drone user (perfect skills with all but sentry) I can say that this would be a great. Even better, with the upcoming drone upgrade next year, implement the option to order drones to fly to an area on the tactical overlay. Will sell wallet space for ISK. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
The Proletarii
137
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 21:32:00 -
[60] - Quote
Lugia3 wrote:+1
As an experienced drone user (perfect skills with all but sentry) I can say that this would be a great. Even better, with the upcoming drone upgrade next year, implement the option to order drones to fly to an area on the tactical overlay.
I wouldn't mind being able to reposition them on a tactical overlay, but I didn't mention it because I'm not sure how balanced it would be.
However, if CCP is looking at this thread and likes the idea, then perhaps they could play with this as well.. |
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