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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.09.20 10:19:00 -
[1891] - Quote
I'm fine with bringing HMLs in line with other medium size long range weapons, but to compensate I think HAMs need a buff. The following is what I think is a good idea.
5% damage increase for HAMs HAM velocity increase countered by a travel time nerf so that overall they maintain their current paper range but it reflects reality far more. A ship travelling 1100ms or so away from a HAM ship effectively cuts the HAM range by half. Turret ships deal with this by switching ammo to Scorch or Null. HAMs don't have this option which is another reasonw hy HMLs were used sooooo much more. The fact that TDs are being proposed to further decrease the range of HAMs just adds insult to injury and I think it's a factor that was ill-considered.
If this buff is implemented for HAMs, I think the curret HML nerfs and the TD buffs will be justified. I think people were so caught up in nerfing HMLs that the effect on HAMs got completely overlooked. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
254
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Posted - 2012.09.20 10:19:00 -
[1892] - Quote
CCP should remove defender missiles totally and reimburse used skill points.
Now when tracking disruptor affects missiles there is 3 different ways to counter missiles compared to 1 for guns.
If you tracking disrupt , smart bomb and use defender missiles, i bet those missiles does not any damage at all.
Also ccp should change missiles invulnerable for smart bomb. |
Seranova Farreach
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
11
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Posted - 2012.09.20 10:29:00 -
[1893] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:I would like to point out that HM are only really used at long ranges like 80k in blobs because in small warfare, whatever is getting shot can usually just warp away. So let's talk about blobs. I virtually never fly in blobs and yet I still have 2x more kills in Drakes than in all other ships combined. And furhtermore, I've always leaned heavily towards HML as being superior to HAMs. Though a proper HAM Drake is certainly a monster. :) -Liang I would like to point out that Caldari are referred to as the kings of PvE by some people which causes some people to then choose Caldari for the Drake and Tengu. They then do their PvE for a while, get bored, want to do some PvP only to find that the only useful ship they can fly is the Drake. THAT'S why it gets used so often. Not because the Drake is some kind of mother-of-all godships. It's because the rest of the caldari ships are all useless for pvp. Hahahahahahahahahhaa, no. You are totally, completely, and utterly wrong. Caldari are the upcoming kings of small gang PVP for anyone who has a clue what they're doing. :) -Liang
your nothing but a troll Liang small gang and solo has always been Winmatar specialized and always will be. |
Seranova Farreach
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
11
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Posted - 2012.09.20 10:37:00 -
[1894] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:CCP should remove defender missiles totally and reimburse used skill points.
Now when tracking disruptor affects missiles there is 3 different ways to counter missiles compared to 1 for guns.
If you tracking disrupt , smart bomb and use defender missiles, i bet those missiles does not any damage at all.
Also ccp should change missiles invulnerable for smart bomb.
naw i think they need to not use TD for missles cause it would make TD a swiss army knife modual to "always" be fitted like prop+tackle in pvp.
Make a separate modual for disrupting missles so its a choise to disrupt guns OR missles not both.. and are we forgetting the target dampers gallente frequently use? even with like 100km range on HMs we can be damped down to just a couple kelomiters and forceing close quarters upon snipers/long rangers.
dont nerf dmg on missles. the other changes seem acceptable except TD which shouldnt effect missles (make a missle disruptor insted) buff target damps a little so people will actually USE them. |
Seranova Farreach
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
11
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Posted - 2012.09.20 10:41:00 -
[1895] - Quote
also notise how its nullsec gimps who are whineing about drake blobs and Heavy missles? |
Rataxas Immortal
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.09.20 10:49:00 -
[1896] - Quote
Recoil IV wrote:hey ccp,can i get back all my caldari spaceshit and missile skills reimbursed into skillpoints so i can invest them in something usefull after the nerf.thanks :D
No you cant ... Now burn Caldarilover Burn !
Only true answer is a Minmatar ! Hail the RUST |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
146
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Posted - 2012.09.20 10:54:00 -
[1897] - Quote
I like arbitrators .... I like them now .... can u imagine how I will love them after the TD change IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
Glasgow Dunlop
Gigaverse The Imperial Senate
4
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:16:00 -
[1898] - Quote
I wonder if he's read most of this now, and the fact he's getting paid to read this aswell :)
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
289
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:19:00 -
[1899] - Quote
Holy page spam Batman!
Knew missiles to be a hot topic but this exceeds expectations .. hahahahaha.
Obligatory on topic remark: Focus TDs effectiveness onto the hulls designed to field them. |
Meolyne
los tabarnakos Ouate de Phoque
16
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:19:00 -
[1900] - Quote
[Joke] Why you've removed my AWESOME 2T5 arcane blast bonus FFS ! [/Joke]
Quote:Why nerf things when you could buff things instead? CCP, your answer is the best answer i've heard in all MMO i played up to date. BRAVO !
It's too bad you're dropping Defender missiles. The thing i regret is defenders protect only incoming missiles to own ship. Not allies but i can understand for complexity purposes. So i will never see defender patforms roaming in fleet ever.
About the Nerf, i agree in general. Just remember that you're driving the Fury Cruise (and some Rage Torp) users to drop completely theses missiles. (aswell as Precision)
Reasons (I'll take some old names for fancy purposes)
DMG : Wrath Cruise = Wrath Precision Cruise < Wrath Fury Cruise ER/EV : Wrath Fury Cruise < Wrath Cruise < Wrath Precision.
1 st : Precision still not used. Regular variant already can wipe frigates with 1 PWNAGE (target painter) 2 nd : Fury dropped completely. Huge malus on BC/ Cruiser sized ships which ALREADY requires 2-3 TP + implants to equals the regular Missile Dmg Output. 3 rd : Adding some more malus with TD and Co. aswell as very effective Defender missiles used by NPC, and you're killing larges T2 missiles boats.
The few post i've read some time ago was usually prays to give cruise+ Furies some love. Right now you are designing Cruise Fury for POS bashing. But remember Citadel Missiles are already used in this task.
TL : DR : Nice But give love to ER/EV of Fury cruise instead of more DMG bonus. |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
495
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:27:00 -
[1901] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This change will make Tracking Disruptors very overpowered!That is a very valid concern and one we will be continuing to look very closely at. Some options on the table include making TDs affect missiles at a lower severity to guns, dropping the base power of TDs and increasing the bonus from TD bonused ships, or splitting off a separate set of missile disruptor modules that use the same skill and get the same ship bonuses as tracking disruptors (in the same way that ECM ships have different racial jammers). One way or another we will be working with you all to make sure Ewar is as balanced as possible before release in Winter.
IMO, tracking disruptors are already OP and the only thing that has kept them somewhat in line was the chance of encountering a missile boat or two while roaming.
Suggestion (made by others) - Convert or create some other module into a missile disruptor. |
kalbrak Jr
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:32:00 -
[1902] - Quote
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:kalbrak Jr wrote:I would like to see new modules for missiles that increase flight time, explosion radius and explosion velocity.
What's wrong with TEs and TCs affecting those stats? kalbrak Jr wrote:They should use the same missile skills the effect the same stats. There should also be two new scripts for tracking disruptors that disrupt missiles. These scripts should use a new skill.
I would be ok with additional skill for missile disruption. Leave 'Weapon Disruption' skill as it is and add 'Missile Destabilization' ( equivalent of 'Turret Destabilization' skill ).
Those are for turrets using gunnery skills. There should be ones for missiles using missile skills. |
Jon Marburg
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
32
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:38:00 -
[1903] - Quote
I'd like to suggest changing the PG tweak on the hurricane from -225 to -200 or at least -210. This change allows for decent fits for all the standard cane setup variations after the patch while still preventing the use of a second medium neut. Currently with the -225 you can't fit a complete fit for arty even with max skill without rigs or implants and the RCU II. Additionally the armor fit needs a little bit extra pg to possible use a warfare link or other potential highs such as missile launchers or cap booster in the mids. Then for shield fits this change allows for all the standard variations such as dual extender as well as extender/invul. |
Vegare
Stranger Things A Point In Space
57
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:45:00 -
[1904] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: [...] splitting off a separate set of missile disruptor modules that use the same skill and get the same ship bonuses as tracking disruptors (in the same way that ECM ships have different racial jammers) This please!
More options to specialise = good = more meaningful decisions to make
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Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
213
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:46:00 -
[1905] - Quote
kalbrak Jr wrote:Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:kalbrak Jr wrote:I would like to see new modules for missiles that increase flight time, explosion radius and explosion velocity.
What's wrong with TEs and TCs affecting those stats? kalbrak Jr wrote:They should use the same missile skills the effect the same stats. There should also be two new scripts for tracking disruptors that disrupt missiles. These scripts should use a new skill.
I would be ok with additional skill for missile disruption. Leave 'Weapon Disruption' skill as it is and add 'Missile Destabilization' ( equivalent of 'Turret Destabilization' skill ). Those are for turrets using gunnery skills. There should be ones for missiles using missile skills.
Actually TE requires only 'Weapon Upgrades' skill, which also affects missile launchers so it's not limited to guns.
There would be no point in splitting those mods between missiles and guns if you make TDs affect both. Either make two versions of TDs and TEs/TCs ( one for guns and one for missiles ) or stick to one.
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kalbrak Jr
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:46:00 -
[1906] - Quote
I think the optimal range script for the tracking disruptor should be removed because it overshadows damps. It should have two scripts, one for turret tracking and one to disrupt explosion radius and explosion velocity. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
146
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:49:00 -
[1907] - Quote
TDs will be really op ... imagine pilgrims/curses now tackling drakes or tengus.... because they cannot hit the drones applying damage and cannot turn on hardeners because of low cap
have to stockpile some of these :) IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
Soko99
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
5
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Posted - 2012.09.20 11:59:00 -
[1908] - Quote
Quote:
Call me when you have to train 18 differnt turrets to T2 and you can't bypass the small Crap you don't need, and you need.
Even with support skills filled out, its 45 days to train a large T2 turret.
Takes two weeks for any missile system.....and you have one more support skill.
Which is offset by your support skills being only usefully for missiles as opposed to all turrets. Plus you get less rof, damage, bonus and the support skills take longer to train.
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OldWolf69
GRIM MARCH SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.09.20 12:10:00 -
[1909] - Quote
Grats sir. Just managed to remove the last usefull Caldari ship. Why not remove the entire missiles class? (Don't tell me pls that HAM's are untouched. ) Even remove Caldari as a Empire? Because just a fool can believe this will hit just the Drake. Most hit will be the Tengu. As usual, someone up there means that "annoying" equals "improving". (don't start telling me missiles were too "easy", because it's bullshit. too easy? go fly blasters). Was lmfao a bit about the goon blob thing. Winning about not being able to fleet enuf ppl and needing a exteriour win button against that? Guy, happy hour! CCP will give ya that button. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
361
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Posted - 2012.09.20 12:13:00 -
[1910] - Quote
Vegare wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: [...] splitting off a separate set of missile disruptor modules that use the same skill and get the same ship bonuses as tracking disruptors (in the same way that ECM ships have different racial jammers) This please! More options to specialise = good = more meaningful decisions to make
Yeah, in the same way that the current Hurricane is too good at too many things, future TDs, TCs, and TEs that affect both missiles and turrets will be too good at too many things. It's good to force compromises in ship fitting; you should have to think carefully about your fit when you undock.
Don't add a missile effect to TDs, TEs and TCs; create new modules instead. |
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Miarss Onaplate
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
40
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Posted - 2012.09.20 12:14:00 -
[1911] - Quote
The theory behind tracking disruption is based on the fact that it you apply it to the ship and it affects the weapon control system (aiming if you wish) causing the desired affect. Similarly with enhancing, you are affecting the ships ability to aim instant damaging weapons.
Non guided missiles feasibly could be affected, as you 'aim' the launcher and fire it like a gun, with a 'timer' to control detonation, hoping the missile is close enough to the target that when it explodes it is close enough to the intended target that the massive explosion causes the required damage. You never count on a direct hit.
With guided missiles however, you program its target and send it on it's merry way. It has an amount of fuel, an ammount of thrust and a warhead contained within, no longer tied to the launching vessel in any way.
Once it has left the ship how can it be affected by anything targetted at the launch vehicle? It cannot affect the amount of fuel or the engines rate of burn. It cannot affect the 'explosive type' in the warhead, ie the explosion velocity/radius. If the flight time is 10 seconds and I launch 5 seconds before I'm TD'd, how does/can that affect the missiles in flight. Same if I launch while under TD and the missile hits target after TD has been stopped/removed.
I could affect missiles in flight if I aimed my 'disruptor' at the missile itself, or it was aimed at my ship and I had an AoE defensive system activated, protective bubble as it were. But it would only take effect when the missile entered it, this would not feasibly stack well with my neighboring ship or fleet.
Similar with enhancements, the targetting of guided & none guided are completely different. One is the point & shoot whilst the other carries the intelligence within a self contained unit.
The missile rigs have the right feel, name and effect, but inclusion of missiles into Tracking systems seems to have spent too little time in the think tank.
A dog in a kennel barks at his fleas; a dog hunting does not notice them. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Kraken.
68
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Posted - 2012.09.20 12:16:00 -
[1912] - Quote
There's nothing wrong with heavy assault missiles and I've used them personally versus after burning frigates, with a stasis webifier applied (they hurt). Seriously though. When it comes to applying damage on everything cruiser and above, you're doing full damage with heavy assault missiles. The purposed changes won't effect this if anything heavy assault missiles will become better.
However, tracking disruptors effecting missiles is a bad idea.
Unlike many in 0.0; low security space and faction warfare produce SUPERIOR frigate pilots. Faction warfare has become alot more difficult than I remember. Mainly because of wide spread proliferation of frigates using tracking disruptors (alot more compotent pilots to, but it could just be the gallente). Anyway. I've literary near stopped flying cruisers and battlecruisers altogether because every other frigate has a f*cking tracking disruptor.
These missile ships are an effective counter to that proliferation: Drake, Caracal Navy Issue, Osprey Navy Issue and the Caracal. "drone boats" are also effective, but yeah... I have come to realize how lame Tracking disruption is and I must say it's almost as lame as ECM.
Missiles shouldn't be effected by tracking disruptors and it would also compound the divergence of ECM and tracking disruption from the other forms of electronic warfare. I rather limit the application of electronic warfare modules like ECM, remote sensor Dampners and tracking disruptors. That way of thinking may hurt those modules effectiveness but, I believe it would increase the fun factor and limit the amount of complaining in this game. Leads to a happier player base which is good for CCP's wallet. basically don't give players more reasons to complain... |
Mike Whiite
Keystone Industrial
67
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Posted - 2012.09.20 12:18:00 -
[1913] - Quote
What I'm intrested in, is to see what happens when people stop making comparisations with Drakes and Ejection bay fitted Tengu's, every time I see the word OP. passing it's with a bonesed ship or configuration.
What is the difference with a Covert ops Fitted Tengu against a Loki or a Protheus.
And since it should be about bringing back ballence:
it should be both about short range ammo and long range ammo, it's all nice and well ccp wants to bring an HM in range with other Med longrange weapons, but does that leave a acceptable option on short range missiles?
Or do missile pilots end up with a long range that is mah and a short range that is all but unuasable do to fitting requirements?
I understand the need to look at the Drake and the Ejection Bay Tengu, I don't see the OP (Missiles damage wise) on any of the other configurations.
TD's seem to be still in consideration and every fear I have for the change has been said more than once.
Finaly what ever the dicision might be considering Missiles and HM specificly, could you guys wait untill the ships using them are reballanced?
Bit sour when you change the ammo specifications on ships that still need to wait a long time untill they are made ready for that specification, like the: Tengu, Drake, Cerberus, CN Caracal, Rook among others.
And finaly I'd ask if you guys will take the time to properly inform everyone, this change is going to hurt quite some casual players that you'll won't find on the forums, A side from that where possible I'd say CCP should make more use of the ingame mailing system, to anounce certain changes, but that's an other point. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
751
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Posted - 2012.09.20 12:31:00 -
[1914] - Quote
^ Can't wait for the hordes to show up, after logging in and not getting exploded, but not really pwning as much as they expected to. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Zendon Taredi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2012.09.20 12:37:00 -
[1915] - Quote
Busy buing up all the harbys and tracking disruptors. At least im going to make some money from this thing. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.09.20 13:06:00 -
[1916] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:There's nothing wrong with heavy assault missiles and I've used them personally versus after burning frigates, with a stasis webifier applied (they hurt). Seriously though. When it comes to applying damage on everything cruiser and above, you're doing full damage with heavy assault missiles. The purposed changes won't effect this if anything heavy assault missiles will become better. How will HAMs get better when they're not touching HAMs but giving medium turrets a buff to their fitting requirements and introducing TDs that affect missiles? HAMs can only get worse than they currently are, and currently, they're really not very good. The velocity change proposal is only affecting Heavy Missiles, perhaps you got confused.
If a frig is letting itself get webbed then it's already failed at kiting and has nothing to do with the quality of HAMs. HAMs have a paper range of about 20km with faction missiles. But if you're chasing something that's burning away from you at 1100+ ms you lose half that range due to missile travel. It's very easy to kite a HAM fit unless it's on a bonused ship like a Cerberus. This is why HMLs are used over HAMs even for most under 20km engagements. So I feel if they want to nerf the HML so that it falls in line with other long range medium weaponry, they need to buff the HAM a little so that it steps up to be competitive in the close range department. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
202
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Posted - 2012.09.20 13:07:00 -
[1917] - Quote
Miarss Onaplate wrote:The theory behind tracking disruption is based on the fact that it you apply it to the ship and it affects the weapon control system (aiming if you wish) causing the desired affect. Similarly with enhancing, you are affecting the ships ability to aim instant damaging weapons.
Non guided missiles feasibly could be affected, as you 'aim' the launcher and fire it like a gun, with a 'timer' to control detonation, hoping the missile is close enough to the target that when it explodes it is close enough to the intended target that the massive explosion causes the required damage. You never count on a direct hit.
.
The ship is providing the missile with the parameters it uses to guide itself on target. Disrupt the ship, all the missiles it launches have slightly wrong information. There is an inconsistency with missiles already in flight but really its fairly feeble compared with some things in eve (ships shooting through each other?) Anyway your premise on what constitutes "guided missiles" appears to be based too much in rl, in eve it plays a bit different. In eve all missiles are "guided". Unguided missiles would be completely useless. Torps, rockets and hams have basic self guiding systems (they follow a target whatever it does), lights, hmls and cruise are guided to target by the capsuleer (hence why the skill effects them) with some sort of sci fi fly by wire. It might not be what the back story or descriptions imply but it is certainly what the game mechanics imply. In game the only difference between the two types of missiles is that the "guided" missiles are slightly more accurate and have a (pretty much coincidental) longer range.
Really the whole logic behind eves weapon systems are a bit of a mess (projectiles don't necessarily travel any faster than missiles so really only lasors should be (practically) instant hit). Projectiles should also be effected by smartbombs. Really if you look at it logically its all immersion breaking wrongness, so really you should just treat it like the game (and it is an mmo not a sim) it is.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
202
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Posted - 2012.09.20 13:09:00 -
[1918] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Major Killz wrote:There's nothing wrong with heavy assault missiles and I've used them personally versus after burning frigates, with a stasis webifier applied (they hurt). Seriously though. When it comes to applying damage on everything cruiser and above, you're doing full damage with heavy assault missiles. The purposed changes won't effect this if anything heavy assault missiles will become better. How will HAMs get better when they're not touching HAMs but giving medium turrets a buff to their fitting requirements and introducing TDs that affect missiles? HAMs can only get worse than they currently are, and currently, they're really not very good. The velocity change proposal is only affecting Heavy Missiles, perhaps you got confused. If a frig is letting itself get webbed then it's already failed at kiting and has nothing to do with the quality of HAMs. HAMs have a paper range of about 20km with faction missiles. But if you're chasing something that's burning away from you at 1100+ ms you lose half that range due to missile travel. It's very easy to kite a HAM fit unless it's on a bonused ship like a Cerberus. This is why HMLs are used over HAMs even for most under 20km engagements. So I feel if they want to nerf the HML so that it falls in line with other long range medium weaponry, they need to buff the HAM a little so that it steps up to be competitive in the close range department.
Because you will now be able to improve your HAMs effective damage by fitting tes and countering thier natural drawbacks. Of course if averyone is fitting tds this wont matter ....
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
202
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Posted - 2012.09.20 13:12:00 -
[1919] - Quote
Iyica de Tylmarand wrote:. Because turrets don't have a 2nd defence option. Or do you think it's a good idea to introduce bullets that deflect incoming bullets and lasers that nullify incoming lasers .[/quote]
I want a B5 style interceptor grid for my Bs please, ta.
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Lord Ryan
True Xero
618
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Posted - 2012.09.20 13:13:00 -
[1920] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:TDs will be really op ... imagine pilgrims/curses now tackling drakes or tengus.... because they cannot hit the drones applying damage and cannot turn on hardeners because of low cap have to stockpile some of these :) Yeah thought everything was suppose to have a counter. Thought missiles were the TD counter. So what counters TD's now? Don't sayy TE's Because I always have 2 on my cane and they're not countering! Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
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