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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
295
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:56:00 -
[961] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.
Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary). |
Annubis Lorn
Drakken Rhaul
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 02:57:00 -
[962] - Quote
Instead of fixing what isnt broken...
Why not address the fact that Faction Wars have completely crashed the market on 90% of items available in the LP stores....
Concentrate on REAL game mechanic problems instead of turning 6 months of training time into a complete waste of time simply because pvpers are crying that one of the ships in the game is supposedly OP because it does decent DPS at a decent range...... oh wait, yea thats right, just like the broken mechanics of the Tier 3 battcruisers that do battleship damage from 150km away. |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
55
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:57:00 -
[963] - Quote
I understand the nerf, and am not completely against it (will definitely be watching the test server performance though), but I have a question:
It seems that you want people to use mods to up their damage, having to balance between dps and shield tank (TE's are mid slots, are they not?). How will that affect the other races / ships that have minimal mid slots to begin with, namely the armor races?
Damnation, and Sacrilege come to mind specifically, although I am not sure how many mids the Bellicose gets.
I'll be interested in how this turns out. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 02:57:00 -
[964] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:baltec1 wrote:I see you continue to miss the part where everyone has told you multiple times that even after the 20% nerf the HML are on par for damage with the three other weapon types. So you're more or less saying that because nobody ever uses the other long range weapon types, they shouldn't be buffed at all? Liang Nuren wrote:Feel free to compare boosted ships to the modern Caracal. -Liang "Feel free to compare the Caracal to something that doesn't exist whatsoever". Uh, sure?
My point is that even the newly boosted ships with long range weapons don't compare to today's non-boosted Caracal with HML.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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baltec1
Bat Country
2167
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:58:00 -
[965] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:baltec1 wrote:I see you continue to miss the part where everyone has told you multiple times that even after the 20% nerf the HML are on par for damage with the three other weapon types. So you're more or less saying that because nobody ever uses the other long range weapon types, they shouldn't be buffed at all?
Nobody uses them because they are out classed by HML. |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 02:58:00 -
[966] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.
On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :) -Liang Sure. Hey let's also compare the HAM caracal with the blaster thorax, pulse omen and ac rupture. Genuinely curious, though all of those should be changing, with the caracal and omen being significantly buffed, at the same time the change to HML's happens
You might be able to cram on some HAMs after the caracal pg boost but you still won't be able to take advantage of guided missile precision or explosion radius/velocity rigs, which is ludicrous. You're going to need to use extra lo/mid slots to bring HAM dps into line with the current HM dps on anything smaller than a BC. Sounds fun :/ |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
718
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 02:59:00 -
[967] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:baltec1 wrote:I see you continue to miss the part where everyone has told you multiple times that even after the 20% nerf the HML are on par for damage with the three other weapon types. So you're more or less saying that because nobody ever uses the other long range weapon types, they shouldn't be buffed at all? Nobody uses them because they are out classed by HML. No, nobody uses them because they're ******* awful. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:00:00 -
[968] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.
On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :) -Liang Sure. Hey let's also compare the HAM caracal with the blaster thorax, pulse omen and ac rupture. Sure, let's compare at the edge of point range: 40km. -Liang
I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range. |
Spanish Aquisition
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:00:00 -
[969] - Quote
Someone at CCP apparently had their poop pushed in by a drake recently
If you think the drake needs a DPS nerf you are bad at Eve and you should feel bad. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9522
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:01:00 -
[970] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets. Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary). He means that sig_rad/explo_rad always counts as an upper limit for missile damage, whereas turrets stop caring about sig radius if transversal is zero. Yes, the sig radius is still fed into the formula, but since all you end up doing is multiplying it with zero, it doesn't matter what it is, nor its ratio to the gun's signature resolution.
Annubis Lorn wrote:Instead of fixing what isnt broken... GǪthey should adjust HMLs, which are broken in a number of ways. And look! They are! \o/ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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baltec1
Bat Country
2167
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:01:00 -
[971] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: No, nobody uses them because they're ******* awful.
Yes, vs HML. Hence why drakes and tengu are used everywhere. |
Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
100
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:02:00 -
[972] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.
Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary).
That's exactly the point. Doesn't this mean that even if a target is stationary, if it's signature radius is a certain value, missiles are guaranteed to do some amount less damage than if the signature radius is arbitrarily large?
IE. An armor tanking Amarr ship with a small signature radius will naturally take less damage from a missile volley than a heavy shield tanking Caldari ship. And that's even before anything to do with velocity is thrown into the mix, which will take off even more damage potential. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
718
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:03:00 -
[973] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: No, nobody uses them because they're ******* awful.
Yes, vs HML. Hence why drakes and tengu are used everywhere. No, they're just awful. Even if HMLs never existed people wouldn't be using beam omens, rail thoraxes, or arty ruptures any more than they do now.
The ONLY reason medium artillery gets used is because of its high alpha. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Annubis Lorn
Drakken Rhaul
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:05:00 -
[974] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:I think destroying Caldari in PVP is a good idea but you should add a 90% reduction in the effectiveness of ECM to go along with it, and perhaps a SP Refund so players can out of the sinking Caldari ship.
A very big +1 from me. |
Bloutok
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:06:00 -
[975] - Quote
Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.
Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.
Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:08:00 -
[976] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote:I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range.
Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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baltec1
Bat Country
2167
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:10:00 -
[977] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: No, they're just awful. Even if HMLs never existed people wouldn't be using beam omens, rail thoraxes, or arty ruptures any more than they do now.
The ONLY reason medium artillery gets used is because of its high alpha.
When you face nothing but HML drakes and tengu it does become a problem. After the changes though rails, beams and arty are going to be used more because they are not out classed. The omen also suffered from massive fitting issues, Issues that should be going away come winter.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:10:00 -
[978] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.
Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary). That's exactly the point. Doesn't this mean that even if a target is stationary, if it's signature radius is a certain value, missiles are guaranteed to do some amount less damage than if the signature radius is arbitrarily large? IE. An armor tanking Amarr ship with a small signature radius will naturally take less damage from a missile volley than a heavy shield tanking Caldari ship. And that's even before anything to do with velocity is thrown into the mix, which will take off even more damage potential.
This is generally true of turrets as well. Missiles and turrets are different, and now that HML is being smacked around some neither is obviously superior to the other.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:11:00 -
[979] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.
Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.
Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version.
Hahaha, feel free to send me all of your Caldari SP. Caldari is going to be fine in PVP, even without OP HML. I probably have it all trained already anyway, but just on the off chance you've trained something I haven't. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Annubis Lorn
Drakken Rhaul
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:11:00 -
[980] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.
Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.
Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version.
agreed |
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Cede Forster
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
89
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:12:00 -
[981] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.
Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary).
first of all transversal does not belongs there, it is an atrocity - i never understood why people would put that there, maybe because angular stuff is to complex? anyway
second, you got an F in math
ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Angular velocity/ Turret Tracking)*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
if angular is 0 then angular / tracking = 0 and if you multiply 0 with "whatever you want" its still .... exactly 0 (most of the times at least)
if you then take 0 ^ 2 you still have .... 0
range part we ignore since it is not part of this argument
so we are left with 0,5 ^ 0 which is ... 1
and 1 means in EVE terms BOOM
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Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
100
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:14:00 -
[982] - Quote
Well, I suppose the real kicker now is whether or not HAM Caracals are going to shine/be fittable, more than anything else. Kind of hoping that at the end of it all, the only real choice of what ship you PvP in isn't "which of these two/three battlecruisers do I choose".
Onto something a little more befitting of the topic, what of the Kestrel? I mean, I've not heard much good on standard missile performance, ever. With the increase in precision and damage, how's this going to go for a Kestrel that has improved fitting ability, potentially enough to fit four T2 standard launchers without having nothing else? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:16:00 -
[983] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Well, I suppose the real kicker now is whether or not HAM Caracals are going to shine/be fittable, more than anything else. Kind of hoping that at the end of it all, the only real choice of what ship you PvP in isn't "which of these two/three battlecruisers do I choose".
Onto something a little more befitting of the topic, what of the Kestrel? I mean, I've not heard much good on standard missile performance, ever. With the increase in precision and damage, how's this going to go for a Kestrel that has improved fitting ability, potentially enough to fit four T2 standard launchers without having nothing else?
I'm not 100% sold on the Kestrel, but I've scored dozens and dozens of kills with Light Missiles since the Condor came out. They're ******* boss, and the 10% damage boost is gonna make me giggle like a school girl.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Trolly McForumalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:16:00 -
[984] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range. Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't. -Liang
Actually I think they're a little underpowered as they are. If they'd allow GMP and rigs to affect them that would be a decent compromise. I don't see that happening though so I guess we'll see. I would also love a precision version of the 'unguided' missiles but I don't want to be too greedy. Turrets don't get this treatment with their short range counterparts and it irks me just a bit. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
295
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:18:00 -
[985] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.
Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary). That's exactly the point. Doesn't this mean that even if a target is stationary, if it's signature radius is a certain value, missiles are guaranteed to do some amount less damage than if the signature radius is arbitrarily large? IE. An armor tanking Amarr ship with a small signature radius will naturally take less damage from a missile volley than a heavy shield tanking Caldari ship. And that's even before anything to do with velocity is thrown into the mix, which will take off even more damage potential. Post eaten by the forum gods. rewriting... |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:19:00 -
[986] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range. Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't. -Liang Actually I think they're a little underpowered as they are. If they'd allow GMP and rigs to affect them that would be a decent compromise. I don't see that happening though so I guess we'll see. I would also love a precision version of the 'unguided' missiles but I don't want to be too greedy. Turrets don't get this treatment with their short range counterparts and it irks me just a bit.
I... don't know. Rigs I can see for sure, especially in light of the TE/TC change. GMP though... I dunno. I'd be interested in play testing either way.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Ghazu
195
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:20:00 -
[987] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.
Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.
Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version.
I'd like that. |
Trolly McForumalt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:25:00 -
[988] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range. Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't. -Liang Actually I think they're a little underpowered as they are. If they'd allow GMP and rigs to affect them that would be a decent compromise. I don't see that happening though so I guess we'll see. I would also love a precision version of the 'unguided' missiles but I don't want to be too greedy. Turrets don't get this treatment with their short range counterparts and it irks me just a bit. I... don't know. Rigs I can see for sure, especially in light of the TE/TC change. GMP though... I dunno. I'd be interested in play testing either way. -Liang
I see it as balance for Caldari having the smallest drone bays in the game - missiles *have* (well ok they don't have to but they should) to do at least decent damage to smaller vessels. In my (somewhat limited) experience with HAMs they just don't do that. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2211
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 03:32:00 -
[989] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote: I see it as balance for Caldari having the smallest drone bays in the game - missiles *have* (well ok they don't have to but they should) to do at least decent damage to smaller vessels. In my (somewhat limited) experience with HAMs they just don't do that.
You need to be careful with that. While it's true that sig radius always plays a role in damage mitigation, it also means that it's literally impossible to get "under the guns" of a missile boat. I'm completely fine with missiles having poor damage application to small fry because they're guaranteed to hit*.
* This is mostly true.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Krell Kroenen
Miners In Possession Brothers of Apocrypha.
31
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:33:00 -
[990] - Quote
As some one else posted I have a feeling these changes will merely bring a new age of "Amarr supremacy". *Shrugs* It's CCP's game and they can make what ever changes they wish.
It seems that after this my armor canes will be rather borked, so I'll just have to trade them in for harby's when I can be arsed to do it. (though they are fugly in comparison to the cane even after the v3 nerf to their looks) I just find it funny that they are getting gutted due to a fit setup I never favored.
So I guess my feed back is this, I think the PG nerf on the cane for an armor tanker might be extreme, but if other fits are causing problems because of it so be it. You can't keep everyone happy all the time. And if my faded frown means 3 other people smile then that is what you should do.
As for the HML changes, by all means go full speed ahead. Misery loves company after all. |
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