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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 12:44:00 -
[3391] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Whilst you are correct, that status quo already exists for turret users and I DO see them tearing stuff up. It's called WINmatar for a reason. If you think turrets are better than missiles then why people use Drakes and Tengus in fleet fights when turret ships like Prophecy, Harbinger, Brutix, Myrmidon and Ferox would do same job? I've heard cap injected triple rep Myrm is quite awesome.
Because of synergies on those ships over and above missiles? Because of hybrids sucking for years and only relatively recently fixed so people have misaligned skills? Because nothing blocs and exploits lag like a drake?
In any event, I was referring to missiles across the board with that comment, not HML, in context of the global weakening of missile boats the TD change enforces. Missile users other than heavy are pretty damned thin on the ground in the PvP scene. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 12:44:00 -
[3392] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: Indeed, and I see a case (a strong case) for sorting these boats, but I can't quite reconcile why the TD thing? Why not more surgical to target the known issues?
Seems odd.
I have flown some solo (dualboxing) with an Arbitrator support. Did you know, a single Arbitrator can make the effective range of a Minmatar battleship go down to about 5-10km or make the guns track worse than a titan? VS any ship with turrets, the arbitrator is just as effective as a Falcon, yet is is beyond useless vs any missile boat, where the Falcon is still because Falcon. |
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 12:49:00 -
[3393] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote: Indeed, and I see a case (a strong case) for sorting these boats, but I can't quite reconcile why the TD thing? Why not more surgical to target the known issues?
Seems odd.
I have flown some solo (dualboxing) with an Arbitrator support. Did you know, a single Arbitrator can make the effective range of a Minmatar battleship go down to about 5-10km or make the guns track worse than a titan? VS any ship with turrets, the arbitrator is just as effective as a Falcon, yet is is beyond useless vs any missile boat, where the Falcon is still because Falcon.
No argument that they hit ships hard, but even with missiles being immune to this form of EWAR, there's STILL are large gap between the number of missile hulls and turret hulls (setting aside the HML for a moment since that's being directly nerfed).
Despite missiles being immune to this and both other weapon systems being very vulnerable its STILL not worth bringing a missile boat to most fights because guns just do it better. Making missiles vulnerable to this simply bangs a nail in the coffin of missile boats in PvP (Again, set aside HML as it is being addressed directly). |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 12:52:00 -
[3394] - Quote
I think you have to note what turrets "simply do better". Turrets instant alpha better, but they have less versatility in forms of damage types. They hit small targets better, but only if they are at sufficient range and not moving too fast. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
178
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 12:53:00 -
[3395] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:In any event, I was referring to missiles across the board with that comment, not HML, in context of the global weakening of missile boats the TD change enforces. Missile users other than heavy are pretty damned thin on the ground in the PvP scene.
Check 425mm AC range with Barrage under Curse's TDs. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 12:55:00 -
[3396] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:In any event, I was referring to missiles across the board with that comment, not HML, in context of the global weakening of missile boats the TD change enforces. Missile users other than heavy are pretty damned thin on the ground in the PvP scene. Check 425mm AC range with Barrage under Curse's TDs. A curse can buttraep a cane so hard! kill it's range with one TD loaded with optimal script, neut off his prop and let the drones and HM's do their thing. |
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 13:00:00 -
[3397] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:I think you have to note what turrets "simply do better". Turrets instant alpha better, but they have less versatility in forms of damage types. They hit small targets better, but only if they are at sufficient range and not moving too fast.
Oh yes.
But what I don't understand is why when the problem is HML/two hulls and those are already being fixed (albeit in a bit of a cack handed manner) why then we lump a nerf on other missile hulls.
I don't think there's much argument that, other than drake/tengu, missile hulls are pretty much bottom of the heap in PvP.
Whilst SNI owners will jump for joy at TC/TE helping them apply PvE damage, the PvP implications of this change are a) Significant and b) Just not needed at this stage (unless I'm missing something?).
Fair enough, later apply equality and have the ships affected by it and add slots to allow counters thus remaining 'neutral' but now? Before the already sub-par boats are balanced? I genuinely don't understand it. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 13:16:00 -
[3398] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Daniel Plain wrote: see, the problem is that neither figures nor fittings are guaranteed to give you a balanced picture of the current state of things. let us - just for a moment - assume that neither the drake nor the tengu were as good as they are. let's just say the drake loses its resistance bonus and becomes unpopular for 0.0 blobs and the tengu loses its ability to fit 100mn ABs. both ships will instantly plummet on the killboards and with them, so will HMLs. would then anybody in their right mind still complain about heavy missiles being too strong? i submit to you that heavy missiles would be where cruises, torpedoes and medium rails already are: insignificant and laughed at.
This is very correct. However, bringing HM's in line with other systems and balancing both the underused and the overused ships, we will maybe see more diversity in ships used, which is the entire point. so your plan is to fix what isn't broken and leave it like that for half a year or even a year instead of fixing the problem and ONLY the problem.
Quote: We are seeing slight powercreep in the tiercide. Almost all ships get a buff, and winmatar are mostly kept where it is because their ships are so good.
what does this have to do with heavy missiles?
Quote: What do you think will happen when the tiercide hits battlecruisers? 5% RoF and a velocity bonus on the Drake with missiles the way they are now. Holybatmanshit, no other ship would be used EVER.
you are assuming that the rest of the hull stays the same as it is now, which does not need to be the case. let's say the drake hull bonuses you proposed actually go live like that. all you need to do is remove one launcher hardpoint (and maybe tune down CPU) and the drake's DPS are perfectly fine. the range will be about the same as now (i do not oppose the range nerf) and the brick tank is down by 25%, which together with the drake's abysmal sig and speed will probably make it one of the squishiest BCs.
same can be done with all other ships. in fact, considering that they are already underused, you would probably need to buff them EVEN MORE after the HML nerf which makes the risk of overdoing it even higher.
so here is the two likely scenarios:
1. heavy missiles get shafted: - drake and tengu are now in the middle of the pack - drake and tengu both lose their unique roles as good mission runners - almost all other HML ships become completely useless until they are finally rebalanced in a year or two - after the rebalance, one or more hulls may become as OP as the drake is now which will cause the same turret pilot tears
2. heavy missiles get to keep their DPS, only range is nerfed: - drake becomes much less valid in blobs, tengu is also somewhat affected. both ships will move down a little on the killboards but stay strong options until they are rebalanced. - PVE players do not need to throw away their favorite hulls and train turrets from scratch - the other HML platforms stay at least somewhat competitive until they are eventually slightly buffed in their rebalance pass - the likelihood of another balance issue with heavy missiles is minimal due to well-known behavior of the weapon system.
P.S.: in cas you're wondering; the idea of tracking for missiles is so stupid i don't even include it in my speculations.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 13:30:00 -
[3399] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:I think you have to note what turrets "simply do better". Turrets instant alpha better, but they have less versatility in forms of damage types. They hit small targets better, but only if they are at sufficient range and not moving too fast. Oh yes. But what I don't understand is why when the problem is HML/two hulls and those are already being fixed (albeit in a bit of a cack handed manner) why then we lump a nerf on other missile hulls. I don't think there's much argument that, other than drake/tengu, missile hulls are pretty much bottom of the heap in PvP. Whilst SNI owners will jump for joy at TC/TE helping them apply PvE damage, the PvP implications of this change are a) Significant and b) Just not needed at this stage (unless I'm missing something?). Fair enough, later apply equality and have the ships affected by it and add slots to allow counters thus remaining 'neutral' but now? Before the already sub-par boats are balanced? I genuinely don't understand it.
What are the other Hulls that as you feel are being nerfed by this change. The Caracal after the patch will do more DPS with the other 3 missile types then in currently can. The others from my understanding have not been balanced yet and CCP Foozie said he would look into fixing the Cerb and NH if he has time this patch. |
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 13:40:00 -
[3400] - Quote
MIrple wrote: What are the other Hulls that as you feel are being nerfed by this change. The Caracal after the patch will do more DPS with the other 3 missile types then in currently can. The others from my understanding have not been balanced yet and CCP Foozie said he would look into fixing the Cerb and NH if he has time this patch.
Every. Single. Missile. Hull. Ever.
They're going to HAVE to fit a TC/TE or lose DPS. If they fit TC/TE, they WILL lose EHP.
The introduction of TD affecting all missiles (even going to far as to affect unguided when the rigs dont work on them) is a direct and immediate reduction in combat effectiveness to ALL missile hulls.
As for the caracal, it'll have to use its two bonus slots to keep at/just under todays DPS, which last I checked isn't blowing anyone's minds. |
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
178
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 13:51:00 -
[3401] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:They're going to HAVE to fit a TC/TE or lose DPS. If they fit TC/TE, they WILL lose EHP.
Just like how it works for turret ships too.
Morrigan LeSante wrote:The introduction of TD affecting all missiles (even going to far as to affect unguided when the rigs dont work on them) is a direct and immediate reduction in combat effectiveness to ALL missile hulls.
You say that like TDs don't affect turrets at all. Again: Cane pilot can't do anything against experienced Curse pilot other thwn get friend to help him. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 13:58:00 -
[3402] - Quote
MIrple wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:I think you have to note what turrets "simply do better". Turrets instant alpha better, but they have less versatility in forms of damage types. They hit small targets better, but only if they are at sufficient range and not moving too fast. Oh yes. But what I don't understand is why when the problem is HML/two hulls and those are already being fixed (albeit in a bit of a cack handed manner) why then we lump a nerf on other missile hulls. I don't think there's much argument that, other than drake/tengu, missile hulls are pretty much bottom of the heap in PvP. Whilst SNI owners will jump for joy at TC/TE helping them apply PvE damage, the PvP implications of this change are a) Significant and b) Just not needed at this stage (unless I'm missing something?). Fair enough, later apply equality and have the ships affected by it and add slots to allow counters thus remaining 'neutral' but now? Before the already sub-par boats are balanced? I genuinely don't understand it. What are the other Hulls that as you feel are being nerfed by this change. The Caracal after the patch will do more DPS with the other 3 missile types then in currently can. The others from my understanding have not been balanced yet and CCP Foozie said he would look into fixing the Cerb and NH if he has time this patch.
what if he does not have the time? are the people who spent a year training for the nighthawk supposed to unsubscribe until 2014? yes i know i know, train turrets lol. except by the time you trained for *insert turret system here*, it may already be up for the nerf bat just like missiles are now.
oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
178
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:02:00 -
[3403] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:I say from the point of view of missile boats being hugely underwhelming (aside from the two problem children): Why do missile boats need weakened at ALL?.
Buffing missile ships like Drake and Tengu without even a little nerf isn't a good idea to start... |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:04:00 -
[3404] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote: what if he does not have the time? are the people who spent a year training for the nighthawk supposed to unsubscribe until 2014? yes i know i know, train turrets lol. except by the time you trained for *insert turret system here*, it may already be up for the nerf bat just like missiles are now.
oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.
One does not simply(tm) spend an entire year to fly only the Nighthawk. In that year you will have skills to use a myriad of other hulls effectively. Unless you did something horribly wrong |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:04:00 -
[3405] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:MIrple wrote: What are the other Hulls that as you feel are being nerfed by this change. The Caracal after the patch will do more DPS with the other 3 missile types then in currently can. The others from my understanding have not been balanced yet and CCP Foozie said he would look into fixing the Cerb and NH if he has time this patch.
Every. Single. Missile. Hull. Ever. They're going to HAVE to fit a TC/TE or lose DPS. If they fit TC/TE, they WILL lose EHP. The introduction of TD affecting all missiles (even going to far as to affect unguided when the rigs dont work on them) is a direct and immediate reduction in combat effectiveness to ALL missile hulls. As for the caracal, it'll have to use its two bonus slots to keep at/just under todays DPS, which last I checked isn't blowing anyone's minds.
If you looked the Caracal got a CPU buff and 2 additional low slots on it to add the BCU to bring it back to the current lvl of DPS and the other to add a TE. So yes they are infact balancing missile ships around the proposed nerf. |
Bloutok
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
17
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:10:00 -
[3406] - Quote
MIrple wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:MIrple wrote: What are the other Hulls that as you feel are being nerfed by this change. The Caracal after the patch will do more DPS with the other 3 missile types then in currently can. The others from my understanding have not been balanced yet and CCP Foozie said he would look into fixing the Cerb and NH if he has time this patch.
Every. Single. Missile. Hull. Ever. They're going to HAVE to fit a TC/TE or lose DPS. If they fit TC/TE, they WILL lose EHP. The introduction of TD affecting all missiles (even going to far as to affect unguided when the rigs dont work on them) is a direct and immediate reduction in combat effectiveness to ALL missile hulls. As for the caracal, it'll have to use its two bonus slots to keep at/just under todays DPS, which last I checked isn't blowing anyone's minds. If you looked the Caracal got a CPU buff and 2 additional low slots on it to add the BCU to bring it back to the current lvl of DPS and the other to add a TE. So yes they are infact balancing missile ships around the proposed nerf.
Yes, the Caracal is going from bad to bad.......
Is the Caracal the only cruiser getting a buff ? |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:16:00 -
[3407] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:MIrple wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:MIrple wrote: What are the other Hulls that as you feel are being nerfed by this change. The Caracal after the patch will do more DPS with the other 3 missile types then in currently can. The others from my understanding have not been balanced yet and CCP Foozie said he would look into fixing the Cerb and NH if he has time this patch.
Every. Single. Missile. Hull. Ever. They're going to HAVE to fit a TC/TE or lose DPS. If they fit TC/TE, they WILL lose EHP. The introduction of TD affecting all missiles (even going to far as to affect unguided when the rigs dont work on them) is a direct and immediate reduction in combat effectiveness to ALL missile hulls. As for the caracal, it'll have to use its two bonus slots to keep at/just under todays DPS, which last I checked isn't blowing anyone's minds. If you looked the Caracal got a CPU buff and 2 additional low slots on it to add the BCU to bring it back to the current lvl of DPS and the other to add a TE. So yes they are infact balancing missile ships around the proposed nerf. Yes, the Caracal is going from bad to bad....... Is the Caracal the only cruiser getting a buff ?
If you look at the 4 attack cruisers the Caracal and the Thorax will be the 2 ships that shine after the changes. The stabber will likely be a heavy tackler and the omen is still up in the air.
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Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
73
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:21:00 -
[3408] - Quote
Important notice : TD affecting missiles is not a nerf to them, it's the downside of TE/TC/TL affecting them too !
And if TD were so powerful, how would have done all the turrets ships all these years ? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
233
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:22:00 -
[3409] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Lallante wrote:Noemi has lost the argument about 15 times now but just keeps repeating his uninformed opinions over and over.
People have shown, using the actual statistics and figures and fittings, that HMLs are out of line both in range and DPS and OP. The people who argue against this aren't using numbers, or even statistics, but just making bald statements of opinion which, surprise surprise, defend their own use of HMLs.
Thats game over. see, the problem is that neither figures nor fittings are guaranteed to give you a balanced picture of the current state of things. let us - just for a moment - assume that neither the drake nor the tengu were as good as they are. let's just say the drake loses its resistance bonus and becomes unpopular for 0.0 blobs and the tengu loses its ability to fit 100mn ABs. both ships will instantly plummet on the killboards and with them, so will HMLs. would then anybody in their right mind still complain about heavy missiles being too strong? i submit to you that heavy missiles would be where cruises, torpedoes and medium rails already are: insignificant and laughed at. before you start burning straw men, please consider: - i am not saying that drake and tengu are fine. both ships need a tweak. - i am also not saying that heavy missiles are fine. in fact, you will find me and many others agree that the range nerf to HMLs is justified, but not the DPS nerf. - what i AM saying is that if not for the drake or tengu, you would not even see heavy missiles on the kill boards, which indicates that the weapon system itself is not as OP as its paper stats seem to be.
Except of course if drake was worse people would use nighthawk, it is flat out better, just more expensive. Everyone knows cerb is broken. Nobody uses t1 cruisers (yet), navy cara is soley not used because a drake is flat out better. So of the three other ships that actually use hmls 2 are not used purely becasue the drake is a better platform for the isk while the third has been broken since the missile nerf.
Drakes resist bonus is not that big a deal, if it lost it would simply fit another resist mod in one of its utility meds. 100Mn tengus is a one trick pony, most are 10 Mn (thunderbirds) and the tengus is far superior than drake in buffer fleet or permamwd fits as well. Drake and Tengu are used simply because they are the best platform for the best (most adaptable) weapon. Drake because its cheap, tengu because it is highly surviveable (mainly due to its engagement range). Everyone who can fly a nighthawk can fly a drake, not so the other way round, and why would you do all that training just for a 10% better ship that costs you 200mil each time your fleet welps. If you want to spend isk you can train for a tengu, its quicker. Nighthawk is not used because its a command ship with the cost and sp limitations that imposes.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:25:00 -
[3410] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Daniel Plain wrote: what if he does not have the time? are the people who spent a year training for the nighthawk supposed to unsubscribe until 2014? yes i know i know, train turrets lol. except by the time you trained for *insert turret system here*, it may already be up for the nerf bat just like missiles are now.
oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.
One does not simply(tm) spend an entire year to fly only the Nighthawk. In that year you will have skills to use a myriad of other hulls effectively. Unless you did something horribly wrong so instead of training some other char for, say, capitals, rorqual etc. i have to shut down EVERYTHING and spend the next year regaining my ability to shoot things?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
884
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:27:00 -
[3411] - Quote
Posting on page 177 of the thread-ageddon.
I think that the main issue with TD's affecting missiles is that they will become the main all-in-one reliable solution for EWAR options on the average ship. Multiply this by the fact that the TD bonused ships from the amarr really don't get THAT big an advantage (25% on 30% TD is a wopping 35% bonus, woot). Compared to ECM, you don't really need a tracking disrupting ship to have an effective tracking disruption capability.
I think you need a separate module called a Ballistic Control Disruptor to make it a choice you make in the fitting screen and makes it stand out. As well, there is a possibility there... bear with me...
To give the missile disruption module as the bonused EWAR for Amarr disruption ships, and then give the current TD's to the Minmatar ships. And that would give the minmatar a real EWAR system to play with, while on a story level explaining why Minmatar swap between missiles and turrets (because of the ballistic disruption capability of the amarr).
Just throwing that out there... Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
233
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:27:00 -
[3412] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Important notice : TD affecting missiles is not a nerf to them, it's the downside of TE/TC/TL affecting them too !
And if TD were so powerful, how would have done all the turrets ships all these years ?
Basically because people couldn't rely on them as they were bound to bump into a drake. Really though the td thing could be quite nice for drakes and even tengus as they are one of the few ships with spare utility meds.
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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Kraken.
69
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Posted - 2012.09.28 14:30:00 -
[3413] - Quote
After thinking over these changes for a few days.
Personally I know a overall damage reduction of 15% is enough. Which translates into 70 -90 damage per second less comparatively to other long range weapon systems with navy ammunition @ 15,000 - 20,000m. The Drakes advantage of consistent damage appilcation all over 50,000m is still intact.
With that said. Range was one of the Drakes biggest advantage.
Personally, I believe tier 2 battlecruisers and tech 1 ships below (cruisers, destroyers, frigates) effectiveness should be limited to 40,000m (40km) and less. The relm beyond that should be held by heavy assault cruisers, tier 3 battlecruisers, recons, strategic cruisers, heavy interdictors, Command ships and battleships etc (so, tech 2 ships , tier 3 battlecruisers or higher class ships). Even with a 20% damage reduction the heavy missile-Drake will still be viable, but more so in groups (not to sure about solo). Anyway, the range reduction brings them closer to battleship damage projection which is also a hidden NERF.
The tracking enhancer and computer crowd seems some what deluded with regard to those proposed modules effectiveness, though. Tech 2 long range ammunition will always be a better (unless you want gimp) choice in terms of the player versus player enviroment and I've looked @ putting tracking ehancers and computers on every missile ship; command ship and below (Sacrilege, Crow and Hawk were somewhat interesting).
I hope to GAWD ccp does not do this effect missile thing because it's r3t@rded... Also BERF TD's... Never looked @ the PVE implications of these changes because I know next to nothing about PVE... Anyway.
So, there's nothing but a hard NERF to heavy missiles and they SHOULD be NERFED back inline with the other long range weapon systems. Instead of being on par with close range weapon systems and also having the damage projection of long range weapon systems.
Anyway, nano /heavy assault missile-drakes using javlins seems like the future v0v @ least in small gangs and solo. Unless CCP nerfs the range on those that is...
Also increase light missiles damage by 20% = / |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
233
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:32:00 -
[3414] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:
oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.
Why would it have comparable levels of dps to a double damage bonused pirate faction ship? Do you even know what you are saying? And how do you get "half". |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:39:00 -
[3415] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:
oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.
Why would it have comparable levels of dps to a double damage bonused pirate faction ship? Do you even know what you are saying? because most other faction battleships do.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:44:00 -
[3416] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Lallante wrote:Noemi has lost the argument about 15 times now but just keeps repeating his uninformed opinions over and over.
People have shown, using the actual statistics and figures and fittings, that HMLs are out of line both in range and DPS and OP. The people who argue against this aren't using numbers, or even statistics, but just making bald statements of opinion which, surprise surprise, defend their own use of HMLs.
Thats game over. see, the problem is that neither figures nor fittings are guaranteed to give you a balanced picture of the current state of things. let us - just for a moment - assume that neither the drake nor the tengu were as good as they are. let's just say the drake loses its resistance bonus and becomes unpopular for 0.0 blobs and the tengu loses its ability to fit 100mn ABs. both ships will instantly plummet on the killboards and with them, so will HMLs. would then anybody in their right mind still complain about heavy missiles being too strong? i submit to you that heavy missiles would be where cruises, torpedoes and medium rails already are: insignificant and laughed at. before you start burning straw men, please consider: - i am not saying that drake and tengu are fine. both ships need a tweak. - i am also not saying that heavy missiles are fine. in fact, you will find me and many others agree that the range nerf to HMLs is justified, but not the DPS nerf. - what i AM saying is that if not for the drake or tengu, you would not even see heavy missiles on the kill boards, which indicates that the weapon system itself is not as OP as its paper stats seem to be. Except of course if drake was worse people would use nighthawk, it is flat out better, just more expensive. Everyone knows cerb is broken. Nobody uses t1 cruisers (yet), navy cara is soley not used because a drake is flat out better. So of the three other ships that actually use hmls 2 are not used purely becasue the drake is a better platform for the isk while the third has been broken since the missile nerf. Drakes resist bonus is not that big a deal, if it lost it would simply fit another resist mod in one of its utility meds. 100Mn tengus is a one trick pony, most are 10 Mn (thunderbirds) and the tengus is far superior than drake in buffer fleet or permamwd fits as well. Drake and Tengu are used simply because they are the best platform for the best (most adaptable) weapon. Drake because its cheap, tengu because it is highly surviveable (mainly due to its engagement range). Everyone who can fly a nighthawk can fly a drake, not so the other way round, and why would you do all that training just for a 10% better ship that costs you 200mil each time your fleet welps. If you want to spend isk you can train for a tengu, its quicker. Nighthawk is not used because its a command ship with the cost and sp limitations that imposes.
even if you were right, how is that an argument to nerf heavy missiles instead of nerfing the drake? and also, the nighthawk is already arguably worse than the sleipnir, what happens if you cut its damage by 20%, taking its DPS below that of some destroyers?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
233
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Posted - 2012.09.28 14:45:00 -
[3417] - Quote
Enslaved Mistress wrote:One issue there, if you are shooting 250km, it will take over 20secs for your missiles to hit target, that is more then enough time for your target to warp. Better to use a rail boat or something. Cerbs were already able to do that, it isn't really the best idea, a lot of the time your target has warped off is already dead before your first missiles make contact haha.
To be honest people already use caracal gangs pre buff and basically they have a couple of good dictor pilots to keep the enemy bubbled and then they just kite away (thats at half the range sure enough, but missiles are getting a velocity buff as well) basically like a poor mans tengu. The dps is minimal (though enough to kill any random straggler) but the alpha from 10-15 caras is enough to kill any support stone dead all while the enemy can do nothing to fight back. Very effective though only a harassing tool. In many ways it is superior to sniper hacs, which tells you all you need to know about the current situation with the weapon systems. |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:50:00 -
[3418] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Doddy wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:
oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.
Why would it have comparable levels of dps to a double damage bonused pirate faction ship? Do you even know what you are saying? because most other faction battleships do.
Stop comparing Faction BS to Pirate BS for one. Show me a Faction BS that gets a double damage bonus.
Edit: The Navy Tempest does get a Double Damage bonus but the other to the typhoon and the domi have a split damage bonus. So I will agree that the Tempest does have it but the others do not. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 14:53:00 -
[3419] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Enslaved Mistress wrote:One issue there, if you are shooting 250km, it will take over 20secs for your missiles to hit target, that is more then enough time for your target to warp. Better to use a rail boat or something. Cerbs were already able to do that, it isn't really the best idea, a lot of the time your target has warped off is already dead before your first missiles make contact haha. To be honest people already use caracal gangs pre buff and basically they have a couple of good dictor pilots to keep the enemy bubbled and then they just kite away (thats at half the range sure enough, but missiles are getting a velocity buff as well) basically like a poor mans tengu. The dps is minimal (though enough to kill any random straggler) but the alpha from 10-15 caras is enough to kill any support stone dead all while the enemy can do nothing to fight back. Very effective though only a harassing tool. In many ways it is superior to sniper hacs, which tells you all you need to know about the current situation with the weapon systems.
10-15 of anything can alpha any support. notice how your strategy of making the caracal useful relies on the caracals being carried by other hulls and the enemy being unable to exploit any of its obvious weak spots.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 15:00:00 -
[3420] - Quote
MIrple wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Doddy wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:
oh btw: the SNIs damage is about half of what a pimped machariel can bring and no amount of tracking will get it even to comparable levels.
Why would it have comparable levels of dps to a double damage bonused pirate faction ship? Do you even know what you are saying? because most other faction battleships do. Stop comparing Faction BS to Pirate BS for one. Show me a Faction BS that gets a double damage bonus. Edit: The Navy Tempest does get a Double Damage bonus but the other to the typhoon and the domi have a split damage bonus. So I will agree that the Tempest does have it but the others do not. why would i stop comparing them? they are often used for the same tasks, so comparing them is perfectly reasonable. also, i couldn't care less which ship has which bonus. the fact of the matter is that most faction battleships can be fit to run decent dps whereas the scorpion can't. and tracking enhancers won't do anything to change that.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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