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Alara IonStorm Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.09 10:03:00 - [31] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[====> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[====> Incoming Drake Snipe! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[====>
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.07.09 10:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Anne Alingus I am guessing that the people who still think Drakes are awesome fleet ships haven't been in 0.0 for awhile (or not at all)? Drakes work really well in lag, are cheap and almost everyone has skills for them, so it's easy to make a drake blob. Almost none of the major blocs in 0.0 use drakes much at all (other than as filler), since they get owned by everything else. The more common and effective fleet ships of the line these days are Abaddons, Maelstroms, Ahacs and Tengus. Low sec still has mostly BC gangs roaming around and as such most tend to have a high amount of Drakes in them. Then again most gangs you see in low sec tend to be under 30-40 ships and at those numbers when you add in the various needed support ships for either a BC or BS gang the BC gang at that number tends to work better.
Ka Jolo The Tuskers	Posted - 2011.07.09 17:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Ka Jolo It's not just the Drake's buffer, it's also her passive recharge that sets her apart from other BC's. The Drake can definitely stand to be primaried for a round or three and shrug it off later. Originally by: Furb Killer Contrary what some people strangely keep claiming, the passive recharge as no effect at all in fleet fights, and very little also in smaller fights. So dont be an idiot and dont fit your fleet drakes with SPRs. What did make the drake popular is combination of high EHP (due to high resists, which is nice), good damage projection and low skill requirements. Originally by: Balkor Wolf As an example not to base a PVP tank around a passive tank, http://killboard.cdokn.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3568 Was a brilliant fight though last night, the hurricanes were a huge problem for our fleet last night I just want to clarify that the effective shield buffer is what helps during a fight, while the passive recharge is for after the fight, making whatever shield damage incurred inconsequential. Other PVP BC's I've flown take a steep toll in cap boosters or repair costs.
Kamikazme	Posted - 2011.07.10 09:16:00 - [34] Edited by: Kamikazme on 10/07/2011 09:18:14 Originally by: Furb Killer If DPS is irrelevant when you have many, then so is buffer. This make zero sense and I'll even be nice enough to explain why. If you have 100 drakes and they are doing low dps, it's still low dps x 100 which equals pretty damn good dmg. So even 500 alpha = 50,000 at that rate when you are focusing fire. HOWEVER, low buffer means you can be alpha'd by much smaller numbers. The large buffer allows the logis more time to start getting reps on you to keep you alive. (edited for grammar)
Cattegirn Intellectual Wookies	Posted - 2011.07.10 10:02:00 - [35] Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 10:04:15 Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 10:03:46 Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 10:02:42 Originally by: Ka Jolo Originally by: Ka Jolo It's not just the Drake's buffer, it's also her passive recharge that sets her apart from other BC's. The Drake can definitely stand to be primaried for a round or three and shrug it off later. Originally by: Furb Killer Contrary what some people strangely keep claiming, the passive recharge [has] very little effect also in smaller fights. Are you exaggerating a bit here? On recharge (of any sort), it does encourage two things at least -- one, for the enemy to continue attacking a target once they have started attacking it, and two, focus fire on a single target. They do the second automatically because it is customary in Eve to do so. But with heavy tacklers where position is a tactical factor in the battle, switching targets is highly desirable and that means if you haven't already fried the tackler you give up all the utility gained by shooting at it thus far. (Besides that I thought focused firepower in fleet battles being readily available was the exception rather than the rule?)
Cattegirn Intellectual Wookies	Posted - 2011.07.10 10:05:00 - [36] Originally by: Furb Killer If DPS is irrelevant when you have many, then so is buffer. I think he means that in both cases, a certain amount of "overpayment" in damage will go to waste when you concentrate "many" on one.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.10 11:20:00 - [37] Edited by: Furb Killer on 10/07/2011 11:21:46 Edited by: Furb Killer on 10/07/2011 11:21:01 Originally by: Kamikazme Edited by: Kamikazme on 10/07/2011 09:18:14 Originally by: Furb Killer If DPS is irrelevant when you have many, then so is buffer. This make zero sense and I'll even be nice enough to explain why. If you have 100 drakes and they are doing low dps, it's still low dps x 100 which equals pretty damn good dmg. So even 500 alpha = 50,000 at that rate when you are focusing fire. HOWEVER, low buffer means you can be alpha'd by much smaller numbers. The large buffer allows the logis more time to start getting reps on you to keep you alive. (edited for grammar) That makes zero sense and i explain you why: It really doesnt matter if you are in a situation with high buffer and high incoming dps or low buffer and low incoming dps(/alpha). So if it doesnt matter that incoming dps is low, why would it matter that the buffer is low? Yes large buffer allows you to survive longer for friendly logistics to lock you up, high dps makes sure the enemy logistics dont have time to lock your targets up. If there are so many hostiles that combined with low dps ship they still alpha everything away, then why would you want a big buffer since you get instapopped anyway? If you dont get instapopped, why wouldnt the opponent want more dps to make sure you get instapopped? In other words: either they both matter, or they neither matter. Obviously they both matter, and low dps is certainly a downside of a fleet ship. Of course for a BC the drake doesnt have low dps at its range. Quote: I think he means that in both cases, a certain amount of "overpayment" in damage will go to waste when you concentrate "many" on one. If more dps isnt needed since you alpha the target anyway, then neither does buffer matter. Quote: I just want to clarify that the effective shield buffer is what helps during a fight, while the passive recharge is for after the fight, making whatever shield damage incurred inconsequential. Other PVP BC's I've flown take a steep toll in cap boosters or repair costs. You do realise the topic here was fleets? Or for my part if decent sized gangs, you got logistics with you, they repair you up and dont wait until your shields recharge. Also in friendly 0.0 repairing is free.
Cattegirn Intellectual Wookies	Posted - 2011.07.10 13:15:00 - [38] Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 13:15:41 Originally by: Ka Jolo I just want to clarify that the effective shield buffer is what helps during a fight, while the passive recharge is for after the fight, making whatever shield damage incurred inconsequential. Other PVP BC's I've flown take a steep toll in cap boosters or repair costs. I guess I'll put the same question to you as I did to Furb. Is it not an exaggeration to say that in small gang fights the passive recharge on the Drake is only good after a fight? Can't we quantify how much a passive recharge is worth?
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.07.10 16:17:00 - [39] What are you people on about with low dps? It only has low dps in EFT, but what is far more important is projection. As for passive recharge, that is only really important after a fight. And what is important is the percentage, not raw number as you want your buffer filled and not 'tank' something.
Ard UnjiiGo Meatshield Bastards	Posted - 2011.07.10 18:01:00 - [40] Jolo and Mutnin nailed it. Only two things worth adding is the ease of switching damage types or to Precisions for smaller targets and the flexibility of all those mids (ex. PODLA Drake).

Brother ThantosXI Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers	Posted - 2011.07.10 18:02:00 - [41] Edited by: Brother ThantosXI on 10/07/2011 18:02:46 Quote: All this is well and good but it goes against advice that I see time and again here; that gank is tank. I fly a HAM drake as my small gang/station camper and honestly the DPS isn't that bad. Though a little more skill intensive to fit It will put out upward of 800DPS overloaded with about 65K EHP. The fit is well suited for Empire War where most fights happen at 0 on gates or undocks. typically: 3BCU DCU MW WEB SCRAM
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.10 20:53:00 - [42] Edited by: Furb Killer on 10/07/2011 20:53:09 Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo Jolo and Mutnin nailed it. Only two things worth adding is the ease of switching damage types or to Precisions for smaller targets and the flexibility of all those mids (ex. PODLA Drake). If your goal is purely different damage types you use a hurricane, since it doesnt have to throw its damage bonus away to do something besides kinetic, although yeah it can be useful. But no one ever switches to precision for smaller targets (not to mention which smaller targets? People are going to attack a drake FLEET in frigates?)
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.07.10 21:20:00 - [43] Originally by: Aznwithbeard Drake is a one trick pony for the most part. huge buffer, crap DPS cough HAMs
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2011.07.10 22:30:00 - [44] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 10/07/2011 22:36:12 Originally by: Cattegirn Can't we quantify how much a passive recharge is worth? Typical buffer Drake: 36hp/s Typical buffer Cane: 28hp/s Largely irrelevant in both cases. If you begin considering passive tanks (as in, using SPR's) you are entering the land of gimmicks - and even there, there are more options to twiddle around with than just Drakes. That's the problem both you and Ka Jolo have in this discussion, you make it sound like shields and passive recharge is a unique and outstanding ability for the Drake, which it is not; especially not in PvP. Other than that, if you take all the answers and piece them together, the question has been answered. 1. Trends (the rock-paper-scissor of the post-DD fleet environment; BC-blobs were among the first to adapt current buffer-logi trends). 2. Bonuses appropriate for fleets (projected, reliable damage and buffer tank; adapts well into singular roles and large/lag [see Abaddon]). 3. Skillreqs (it's a BC, it's the most popular race, it's common for beginner PvE, it's weapon system have worse tech / better meta options). 4. Good fitting options and slot allocation (leads to a flexible ship with alot of potential setups; HML/HAM, tank, nano, reach). 5. Weapon systems that hit the majority of existing range "sweetspots" with an average performance (scram/web, point, mid, long). It's a good ship, arguably the best in it's class, but most BC are good ships.
Seraph IX Basarab Gallente Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION	Posted - 2011.07.11 08:26:00 - [45] Biggest plus I think for Drakes is the simplicity and ease of use. As long as you have a decent tank fit, any idiot can sit in a Drake and soak up some damage before dying. In the best case scenario, you have a skilled pilot using a Drake to its full potential. Worse case scenario you have a newer pilot who may not know all the ins and outs bu the ship is basic enough with a strong enough tank that he will contribute to the over all fleet. Simplicity ensures reliability. "Mors certa, hora incerta."
Zyress	Posted - 2011.07.11 20:51:00 - [46] Originally by: Noisrevbus Edited by: Noisrevbus on 10/07/2011 22:36:12 Originally by: Cattegirn Can't we quantify how much a passive recharge is worth? Typical buffer Drake: 36hp/s Typical buffer Cane: 28hp/s Largely irrelevant in both cases. If you begin considering passive tanks (as in, using SPR's) you are entering the land of gimmicks - and even there, there are more options to twiddle around with than just Drakes. That's the problem both you and Ka Jolo have in this discussion, you make it sound like shields and passive recharge is a unique and outstanding ability for the Drake, which it is not; especially not in PvP. Other than that, if you take all the answers and piece them together, the question has been answered. 1. Trends (the rock-paper-scissor of the post-DD fleet environment; BC-blobs were among the first to adapt current buffer-logi trends). 2. Bonuses appropriate for fleets (projected, reliable damage and buffer tank; adapts well into singular roles and large/lag [see Abaddon]). 3. Skillreqs (it's a BC, it's the most popular race, it's common for beginner PvE, it's weapon system have worse tech / better meta options). 4. Good fitting options and slot allocation (leads to a flexible ship with alot of potential setups; HML/HAM, tank, nano, reach). 5. Weapon systems that hit the majority of existing range "sweetspots" with an average performance (scram/web, point, mid, long). It's a good ship, arguably the best in it's class, but most BC are good ships. Ummmm my buffer fit Drake has 195DPS sustained defense efficiency 48.52 dps peak self - recharge (those numbers are omnitank), obviously better for some things and worse for others, admittedly a drop in the bucket of incoming dps if you are the primary of a blob but in small gangs that adds a significant amount of tank particularly when you first take the first 65.7 % of the damage off of even my lowest resist damage type. In small gangs I don't think thats insignificant even during the fight. This is more of a pve fit than a pvp fit but if I changed my target painter for a warp disrupter , it could do pvp
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2011.07.12 00:03:00 - [47] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 12/07/2011 00:08:13 Originally by: Zyress Ummmm my buffer fit Drake has 195DPS sustained defense efficiency 48.52 dps peak self - recharge You have 2x PDS on your Drake? Ed. I guess you have 2x LSE, that would make more sense, barely.
Cattegirn Intellectual Wookies	Posted - 2011.07.12 11:23:00 - [48] Edited by: Cattegirn on 12/07/2011 11:23:54 No, it has nothing to do with his competence. The numbers say it all. Either he has enough volley to bypass it or he doesn't. And it isn't 40 or whatever was claimed above. Peak recharge on Drakes with SPRs approach 400. Anyhow, it's remarkable how nobody has simply put down the math for it. It's a straight numbers question and the functions are obvious. I assume those who aren't writing to see their words in print are too lazy to do it. :)
Brother ThantosXI Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers	Posted - 2011.07.13 05:33:00 - [49] Quote: Edited by: Cattegirn on 12/07/2011 11:23:54 No, it has nothing to do with his competence. The numbers say it all. Either he has enough volley to bypass it or he doesn't. And it isn't 40 or whatever was claimed above. Peak recharge on Drakes with SPRs approach 400. Anyhow, it's remarkable how nobody has simply put down the math for it. It's a straight numbers question and the functions are obvious. I assume those who aren't writing to see their words in print are too lazy to do it. :) I have killed 100 Drakes in my Drake....and I am confused, what's a SPR? BTXI
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2011.07.13 15:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Cattegirn Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 13:15:41 Originally by: Ka Jolo I just want to clarify that the effective shield buffer is what helps during a fight, while the passive recharge is for after the fight, making whatever shield damage incurred inconsequential. Other PVP BC's I've flown take a steep toll in cap boosters or repair costs. I guess I'll put the same question to you as I did to Furb. Is it not an exaggeration to say that in small gang fights the passive recharge on the Drake is only good after a fight? Can't we quantify how much a passive recharge is worth? Barely anything. Even against small-sized gangs, the passive recharge is nearly irrelevant in terms of the amount of DPS faced. You'll live much longer when fit for more buffer. Also, logistics anyone? I mean, only scrub gangs don't use them. --- Drykor - AHARM

Mfume Apocal Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.07.14 08:28:00 - [51] Originally by: Cattegirn No, it has nothing to do with his competence. The numbers say it all. Either he has enough volley to bypass it or he doesn't. And it isn't 40 or whatever was claimed above. Peak recharge on Drakes with SPRs approach 400. Anyhow, it's remarkable how nobody has simply put down the math for it. It's a straight numbers question and the functions are obvious. I assume those who aren't writing to see their words in print are too lazy to do it. :) Cap is life in pretty much any PvP and SPRs nerf your cap to the point it's hard to MWD, hold point and survive under neut(s). Additionally, that 400 DPS passive tank on your SPR Drake is more than surpassed by a bog-standard shield Cane's 700 DPS is and completely crippled by it's dual medium neuts. Congratulations, you've taken a fight (Drake vs. Cane) you should either win or be able to walk away from and turned it into a loss.
Zyress	Posted - 2011.07.15 19:19:00 - [52] The buffer fit I was talking about has over 101K Ehp, if you are looking at a semi-active tank I like PDS's better than SPRs, not that I would use it for a fight when I needed to point or do dps but its fair bait but this fit has 98K buffer and 570dps sustained defense efficiency with a peak recharge rate of 134.51 hps, its even capstable at 84% without the Nos. [Drake, Bait] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Nosferatu II Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Hobgoblin II x5 The Buffer fit does much better damage [Drake, Incursions] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners Target Painter II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5
Dani Leone Gallente How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb	Posted - 2011.07.15 22:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Zyress The buffer fit I was talking about has over 101K Ehp, if you are looking at a semi-active tank I like PDS's better than SPRs, not that I would use it for a fight when I needed to point or do dps but its fair bait but this fit has 98K buffer and 570dps sustained defense efficiency with a peak recharge rate of 134.51 hps, its even capstable at 84% without the Nos. [Drake, Bait] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Nosferatu II Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Hobgoblin II x5 The Buffer fit does much better damage [Drake, Incursions] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners Target Painter II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 In both cases lacking a point so not truly useful as bait...


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