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Whiskey Jameson
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Posted - 2011.06.30 01:51:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Headerman The other alternative to fixing hybrids is to fix Gallente.
Because as we all know the ferox and rokh are awsome ships.
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Headerman
Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.06.30 01:57:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Whiskey Jameson
Originally by: Headerman The other alternative to fixing hybrids is to fix Gallente.
Because as we all know the ferox and rokh are awsome ships.
So is the Cyclone wen it uses HMLs and drones...
Or the Myrm when it uses any guns at all.
It was just a thought.
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.30 02:14:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Headerman Should Gallente boats get a slight agility buff? Should active armour rigs get a penalty to something else than weight?
What do you call a Minmatar Pilot who can fit the Highest Teir Guns, 2xLSE or a 1600mm Plate, MWD and Nuets... Someone who has Engineering 4.
Fitting is a big reason to go Minmatar While a Diemos can not put a 1600mm plate, MWD and Ions on there ship a T1 Rupture can put 220mm Guns, a 1600mm Plate and a Micro on theres. Why fly Gallente when a ton of Minmatar Ships have 2 DPS Bonuses, Can fit the Highest Teir Guns and a full tank while running Circles around everyone else. It isn't like they lack anything like drone Bays or Slots to do this ethier.
-- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
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Headerman
Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.06.30 02:32:00 -
[64]
Minmatar ships are fun to fly, and even with decent tanking mods, tanking is still a rather precarious affair. Still, they are fun.
Just like all ships should be in this game.
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.30 02:36:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Headerman Minmatar ships are fun to fly, and even with decent tanking mods, tanking is still a rather precarious affair. Still, they are fun.
I like them too but I think that there best tanking style is the ability to know if there tank is enough before the fight even starts. Your 3 Canes run into 10 Drakes don't engage and leave. Your 10 Canes spot 3 Drakes, they are not so lucky.
Big Fleet Battles on the otherhand is a different storey but the Mael holds together well.
-- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
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Whiskey Jameson
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Posted - 2011.06.30 02:47:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Whiskey Jameson
Originally by: Headerman The other alternative to fixing hybrids is to fix Gallente.
Because as we all know the ferox and rokh are awsome ships.
So is the Cyclone wen it uses HMLs and drones...
Or the Myrm when it uses any guns at all.
It was just a thought.
How does that saying go? You can take the troll out of TEST but you can't take the TEST out of the troll?
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Headerman
Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.06.30 03:11:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Headerman Minmatar ships are fun to fly, and even with decent tanking mods, tanking is still a rather precarious affair. Still, they are fun.
I like them too but I think that there best tanking style is the ability to know if there tank is enough before the fight even starts. Your 3 Canes run into 10 Drakes don't engage and leave. Your 10 Canes spot 3 Drakes, they are not so lucky.
Big Fleet Battles on the otherhand is a different storey but the Mael holds together well.
Essentially it does come down to agility/speed.
It is a tough thing to tackle (no puns), but i personally don't think that nerfing Minmatar is the final answer.
ehh... on thinking about it there is a lot of different things that could be tried
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.30 03:21:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Headerman It is a tough thing to tackle (no puns), but i personally don't think that nerfing Minmatar is the final answer.
I honestly think creating a Speed race was a bad idea in general, especially when it is the major factor for any Solo/Gang PVP. Minmatar may have the fastest ships but Speed should have been more class based like certain Cruisers Thorax, Omen and Stabber should have a shared advantage in Speed while Tanky Combat Ships like the Vexor, Maller and Rupture should be more Firepower Based.
Creating one race with a major advantage is just a bad idea. If it wasn't for Scorch most Amarr ships would loose there advantage completly, the entire race is held up by one Ammo Type while ECM and Heavy Missiles are what is keeping Caldari in the game. Minmatar Ships are miles away when it comes to effective hulls. I would like to see a lot of sub par ships like the Brutix, Harbinger, Myrmidon, Ferox, Diemos, Sacrilige, Phobos, Eagle, Raven, Rokh, Hyperion, Thorax, Maller, Omen and others that are only good for limited situations be thrust back into combat with usability like most Minmatar Hulls.
-- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
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Headerman
Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.06.30 03:49:00 -
[69]
+1.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:03:00 -
[70]
told u matar ships are way too good
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:19:00 -
[71]
Honestly, I think nerfing the falloff bonuses would be enough. Tracking enhancers and tracking computers give double the benefit to falloff that they do to optimal, and this has created some serious balance issues.
And quite frankly, tracking enhancers should be less effective than scripted tracking computers. They consume less CPU and don't consume capacitor. I'm envisioning a 10% optimal/falloff bonus to compare to the 15% of the revised tracking computer.
Ambit rigs give the same bonus to falloff as locus coordinators do to optimal. This makes sense. Make the modules do the same.
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Terianna Eri
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:31:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Headerman Active armour tanking rigs add weight...
Actually, armor rigs all have the sgame penalty (no reason to distinguish between active and passive rigs) and they grant a straight speed penalty. Plates add mass.
But aside from that I agree with you; Gallente ships are just too slow / immobile to bring blasters to bear.
Nerfing lasers or projectiles won't solve this problem; it'll just mean that it'll take a little longer to kill a gallente ship when kiting it. ________________
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Mekhana
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:05:00 -
[73]
I think Minmatar and Amarr are fine. The only issue is bringing Gallente ships and hybrids up to par.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:12:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Mekhana I think Minmatar and Amarr are fine. The only issue is bringing Gallente ships and hybrids up to par.
Well, the whole point of this discussion is that it's all relative.
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Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:33:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Mekhana I think Minmatar and Amarr are fine. The only issue is bringing Gallente ships and hybrids up to par.
Well, the whole point of this discussion is that it's all relative.
1. i second mekhanas statement.
2. to "it being all relative": i rather fly 3 awesome but differently handling races than 3 ****ty ones. nerfing back projectiles is bad in my book. just remember how ****ed minies were only a while ago. i dont want that again.
rather id see hybrids and gallente boats buffed. from the threads ive read the most appealing changes for me are: - rails: increased rate of fire - blasters: better tracking - gallente: agility up - rigs: resist and active armor mods should not add mass but reduce hull
cheers!
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Aamrr Well, the whole point of this discussion is that it's all relative.
By that standard, cruise missiles need love more than blasters.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:38:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Tore Smith
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Mekhana I think Minmatar and Amarr are fine. The only issue is bringing Gallente ships and hybrids up to par.
Well, the whole point of this discussion is that it's all relative.
1. i second mekhanas statement.
2. to "it being all relative": i rather fly 3 awesome but differently handling races than 3 ****ty ones. nerfing back projectiles is bad in my book. just remember how ****ed minies were only a while ago. i dont want that again.
rather id see hybrids and gallente boats buffed. from the threads ive read the most appealing changes for me are: - rails: increased rate of fire - blasters: better tracking - gallente: agility up - rigs: resist and active armor mods should not add mass but reduce hull
cheers!
you sir fail matars were ****ed???? wtf when?? i completly missed this, they werent the best race for huge fleets true but now they are just best in everything increase rails rof? wtf why?
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Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.06.30 10:14:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Tore Smith on 30/06/2011 10:14:23
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Tore Smith
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Mekhana I think Minmatar and Amarr are fine. The only issue is bringing Gallente ships and hybrids up to par.
Well, the whole point of this discussion is that it's all relative.
1. i second mekhanas statement.
2. to "it being all relative": i rather fly 3 awesome but differently handling races than 3 ****ty ones. nerfing back projectiles is bad in my book. just remember how ****ed minies were only a while ago. i dont want that again.
rather id see hybrids and gallente boats buffed. from the threads ive read the most appealing changes for me are: - rails: increased rate of fire - blasters: better tracking - gallente: agility up - rigs: resist and active armor mods should not add mass but reduce hull
cheers!
you sir fail matars were ****ed???? wtf when?? i completly missed this, they werent the best race for huge fleets true but now they are just best in everything
Missy, just have a look at the FID forum. I respect that you have a different perception of how much minies sucked in 2009, but before the ammo and tracking enhancer changes they had major issues especially BSs, which i happen to very much like to fly.
Originally by: Naomi Knight increase rails rof? wtf why?
because they suck. the suck bad and by the way, they did already suck in 2009. and since this is eve, realism is not the first priority, so an increased rof is ok for me. and yes, they have become really bad with artie being buffed. still this is no reason to nerf projectiles because than again its beams only.
also: your mom fails
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Headerman
Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:16:00 -
[79]
On the side of things, and with the Cruise/rail topic, the wtf ranges of those two can be useful, but not very often...
The Hyperion, with a full rack of 425 T2s and antimatter has 36+30 for range, and does 364 DPS. The Maelstrom, with a full rack of T2 1400's and PP/Fusion/EMP has 30+44 range, 439 DPS.
Both ships have the same bonuses but the Hyp has better agility and speed.
Sucks to be the Rokh though, it is the slowest, least manoverable, does the least amount of damage, has the weakest scan res, and needs a power mod to bring all 8 T2 425 rails online. Can hit out to 54+30 though, but with 291 DPS, it's not gonna win any 1v1's. Abaddon also needs a power mod for 8 T2 Tachs
So....
Trade a speed increase for reduced range and more dps?
But then there is the Tier 2 BSs. Pest with 6 x 800 T2s does 433 DPS, while a meggy with 7 T2 neutrons does 809 dps. range for the pest is 3+24, and 4.5+13 for the meggy.
So...
Similar scenario again? trade range for DPS, but this time, less DPS and more range for blasters? The Meggy is quite a bit slower than the pest too.
personally, i don't think the correlation between speed and dps is very well represented.
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Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:44:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Tore Smith on 30/06/2011 11:47:11
Originally by: Headerman
The Hyperion, with a full rack of 425 T2s and antimatter has 36+30 for range, and does 364 DPS. The Maelstrom, with a full rack of T2 1400's and PP/Fusion/EMP has 30+44 range, 439 DPS.
are you sure about that? my eft gives me 351 (hype) to 350 (mael) all l5 skill, no implants and reload times included.
the abaddon on the other hand has 422 dps and this is with megas only (choose them because of comparable fitting).
i would be fine if rails were somewhere in between: less dps and cap consumption than lasers, higher dps than arty but pathetic alpha and cap use. frankly i dont care if they buff the rof or dps of rails. rof has its use for fast target switching but something about ammo size is probably to be adjusted in this case as well. anyways they need a buff, simply nerfing projectiles will not cut it.
cheers!
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Crabs Collector
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:59:00 -
[81]
Gallente shouldnt whine so much. Vindicator is probably the best ship for incursions and thus moneymaking. Blasters do biggest dps at short range, wich is also fine for pvp with all the ewar you need anyway. Railguns are great for sniping. Gallente's main power should be drones anyway.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:06:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Crabs Collector Gallente shouldnt whine so much. Vindicator is probably the best ship for incursions and thus moneymaking. Blasters do biggest dps at short range, wich is also fine for pvp with all the ewar you need anyway. Railguns are great for sniping. Gallente's main power should be drones anyway.
omg another noob who thinks this game is all about pve incursion
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Crabs Collector
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:08:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Crabs Collector Gallente shouldnt whine so much. Vindicator is probably the best ship for incursions and thus moneymaking. Blasters do biggest dps at short range, wich is also fine for pvp with all the ewar you need anyway. Railguns are great for sniping. Gallente's main power should be drones anyway.
omg another noob who thinks this game is all about pve incursion
Impressive lack of reading skillz you show us there.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:12:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 30/06/2011 12:13:57
Originally by: Crabs Collector
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Crabs Collector Gallente shouldnt whine so much. Vindicator is probably the best ship for incursions and thus moneymaking. Blasters do biggest dps at short range, wich is also fine for pvp with all the ewar you need anyway. Railguns are great for sniping. Gallente's main power should be drones anyway.
omg another noob who thinks this game is all about pve incursion
Impressive lack of reading skillz you show us there.
impressive lack of actual pvp knowledge you show us there
btw if gall should be all about drones then matar should be all about speed(not imba op guns+fitting+etc)---> huge projectile nerf is needed , those dont need to be top tier weapons anyway
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Crabs Collector
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:18:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 30/06/2011 12:13:57
Originally by: Crabs Collector
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Crabs Collector Gallente shouldnt whine so much. Vindicator is probably the best ship for incursions and thus moneymaking. Blasters do biggest dps at short range, wich is also fine for pvp with all the ewar you need anyway. Railguns are great for sniping. Gallente's main power should be drones anyway.
omg another noob who thinks this game is all about pve incursion
Impressive lack of reading skillz you show us there.
impressive lack of actual pvp knowledge you show us there
btw if gall should be all about drones then matar should be all about speed(not imba op guns+fitting+etc)---> huge projectile nerf is needed , those dont need to be top tier weapons anyway
You're the one implying blasters arent good for pvp. I have excellent use for them so maybe you're the one who lacks pvp knowledge.
However i must agree with you on your minmatar statement. They are actually the ones that should be using blaster-like weapons since they have the speed to compensate.
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Armilar Jameson
The Corsairs Total Comfort
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:19:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Whiskey Jameson
Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Whiskey Jameson
Originally by: Headerman The other alternative to fixing hybrids is to fix Gallente.
Because as we all know the ferox and rokh are awsome ships.
So is the Cyclone wen it uses HMLs and drones...
Or the Myrm when it uses any guns at all.
It was just a thought.
How does that saying go? You can take the troll out of TEST but you can't take the TEST out of the troll?
Brother, is that you!
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:13:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 29/06/2011 21:22:06
Originally by: Cipher Jones The amount of DPS that the vidi does compared to a mach is a greater ratio than the ratio between the agility of the 2 ships, so while its like a hidden bonus to the mach, its also like a hidden bonus to the vindi.
Which makes up for everything...
Unless you are outside of a docking ring or fighting anything with a Warp Disruptor and a bit more speed then you.
A ship outside of web range *and* scramming/disrupting you could kill you, but no ship that fits that bill should be able to kill a BS before it can get back to the gate, sorry. What you should be worried about is a small gang. And that's only a blaster Vindi. A rail vindi would annihilate it.
. Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:38:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Crabs Collector
You're the one implying blasters arent good for pvp. I have excellent use for them so maybe you're the one who lacks pvp knowledge.
Take a look at the Eve-Kills top 20 ships. How many blaster ships do you see there? In fact, how many Gallente ships do you see there?
Exactly - none.
This isn't up for debate; this isn't about who can and cannot make them work. It is a fact that blasters are the poorest performing of the close-range weapons systems. The best players in the game have acknowledged it. Even CCP have (finally) acknowledged it. Don't bother insulting is with your drivel about blasters being fine, any reasonable person can clearly see that they are not.
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August Austrene
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:22:00 -
[89]
Edited by: August Austrene on 30/06/2011 15:22:51 Edited by: August Austrene on 30/06/2011 15:22:16 I think taking out EM damage ammo from Minmatar would make it more even as all class have missiles. Amarr should be the only one with guns doing Em damage.
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Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.30 15:26:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
Originally by: Crabs Collector
You're the one implying blasters arent good for pvp. I have excellent use for them so maybe you're the one who lacks pvp knowledge.
Take a look at the Eve-Kills top 20 ships. How many blaster ships do you see there? In fact, how many Gallente ships do you see there?
Exactly - none.
This isn't up for debate; this isn't about who can and cannot make them work. It is a fact that blasters are the poorest performing of the close-range weapons systems. The best players in the game have acknowledged it. Even CCP have (finally) acknowledged it. Don't bother insulting is with your drivel about blasters being fine, any reasonable person can clearly see that they are not.
QFT
All you need to do from there is to take a look at the popularity/performance of ships in the last few tourneys as well... Rather sad that this has been going on for years with flashing red lights everywhere indicating a problem. Time to wake up and get the ball rolling ccp
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