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Aderata Nonkin
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:08:00 -
[31]
EVE is not "already" P2W. Anyone claiming that is blatantly trolling.
What is suggested, however, would spell a significant change for the game - to the point where a large part of the sandbox will be filled with diamond-encrusted concrete.
æIf you are not big enough to lose, then you are not big enough to win.Æ |
Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Cpt Fina Seconded!
True story, old story,
àalso highly and selectively edited story (to the point of being inaccurate), since it cuts out the parts that makes it different from the pay-to-win that is the current topic of debate.
I would disagree.
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Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:19:00 -
[33]
In an attempt to have a reasonable discussion which has probably been had somewhere else also.
Doesnt it depend on how the items are priced though?
With the Aurum CCP could have the item that is sold compete with higher priced items that depend less or not at all on player driven industry. Examples are faction ammo and the Machariel.
For example the gold ammo. CCP could price this to always be overprices so it would compete with the high priced faction ammo only.
Question is would that also be a problem?
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Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:21:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Estephania on 27/06/2011 12:23:33 Don't fool yourself by thinking that MT items will be hopelessly overpriced and only a few of super-rich players will buy them. The purpose of MT is to generate revenue for CCP. I don't remember which Dev said that, but it was made clear that cheaper versions of vanity stuff will be in shops in the future. If non-vanity items will enter shop, at least some of them will be made appealing to wider range of players of MT's won't generate enough income. As the trend progresses, I suspect, MT will be completely replacing player market in a wide range of areas.
Remember that MT was not introduced to make us mad, but to make money, and it will make more money if wide variety of differently priced items is sold. Another trend will be playerbase change. MT's will attract wide instant gratification crowd that couldn't care less about sandbox and player driven economy. They would like to BUY their advantage instead of working for it. CCP will still make money, but from different players. Unfortunately, those who helped to make this game what it is now are being dumped by CCP and thrown away like spent, worthless material. They seem to welcome instant gratification kiddies in shoot'em all space sim who would buy most of their stuff with MT's.
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Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:28:00 -
[35]
Estephania, you assume a lot. Way too much imho
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Jenshae Chiroptera
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:28:00 -
[36]
Titan for $100 might sell enough to make up for the people that unsubscribed. Greetings and salutations all who reside here. May your flames be warm and your trolls tasty. |
Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:28:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Zanes Shoubje Question is would that also be a problem?
Yes. It still relies on the same, unregulated, out-of-game source of production.
The comparison with faction items is a good place to start. All those items come from random drops that you have to grind for, or from LP store that you have to grind LP to use.
ànow imagine an LP store where you have zero grind. What prices would you have to apply to that store to balance out that zero time cost? Anything short of roughly ∞-1 would make it unbalanced in relation to the normal store. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP |
Dopesick
Minmatar The Dream is Dead
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:31:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sjugar Buy ****loads of plexes for $$.
Sell plexes for isk.
Buy more Nyxes then everyeone else.
Win Eve.
True story.
To a degree I will agree with you. However, said Nyx was produced in game by players using in game resources. Being able to buy a "IWIN SHIP or AMMO" in Nex is completely different. Seriously, most all of us 7-8 year vets (and even newer concerned players) want is a definitive answer to one question; Is CCP going to introduce pay-to-win MT's into Eve Online or not? |
Zag'mar Jurkar
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ineka
Originally by: Della Monk And the isk you get for selling the plex is only as much as other players are willing to pay you.
CCP allowing you to sell your game time ingame is not the same as CCP selling ingame items.
Too much isk in the game kills the isk.
So, if some GTC go right to aurum instead of plex and F2P it's not bad. Less isk in game is good.
Tell me you are trlling.... Nobody can be this dumb.
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Uuali
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:39:00 -
[40]
What part of "Game changing mechanics" don't you understand. PLEX is still a component of a player driven mechanic. MT will change that to a simple, direct sale via CCP. The implications go far beyond the notion of buy a bigger gun, win game.
The more an MT based mechanic is introduced to the game the less CCP actually has to develop anything other than more items. The game will become more about just buying items to get ahead than to enjoy new improved features.
I by PLEX. I don't have the time or energy to grind in this game to get stuff. But that PLEX goes for a lot of different things and actually helps me to get up to par with the people who don't want to spend real money but have the same stuff nonetheless.
It is more about what people don't want to spend money on than what they have to in order to play the game. MT will increasingly force a must pay system and the player economy (i.e. trading, manufacturing) will become merely fluff with no real significants.
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Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:39:00 -
[41]
Tippia, I agree every mt item that takes activity out of the game is a step too far. Just because it is a sandbox the more varied the activity the better. And every lp grinding mission runner is a possible pvp encounter.
But that does take us back to PLEX. They do the same.
The question is would players that play by selling PLEX for isk have played the game at all?
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Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:44:00 -
[42]
Maybe the question is is PLEX already a step too far?
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Yoko Fumimasa
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:44:00 -
[43]
Community > Prices of nex are way too high rabble rabble rabble CCP > [silence]..... Community > Respond, CCP! CCP > [oops a leaked document stating ideas of MT for items] Community > WHAT, Gold ammo in MY EVE? CCP > [silence]..... Community > Didn't you hear me I assked Gold ammo in my Eve? CCP > No, no gold ammo Community > Oh how about gold ships? Fanbois > What's the problem, exactly, hmmmm? Community > Ehhhhmm.... Community > Oh, it kills the market! That's why we are against nex (causality, anyone ) CCP > [silence]..... Community > WE WANT ANSWERS!!!11!!1 Everyone > sigh....
OK, so this is a brief summary of the past few days. Now, can anyone tell me where exactly is stated that the NeX is a replacement for the current market?
Look at the LP store, and please don't be *****ing about the amount of effort it takes to gather LP, but look at how purchases work. LP is also 'another' kind of currency. Is this killing the market? No because it takes items to make (convert) stuff in the LP store. Who said NeX isn't going to be the same?
Plus, the items available in the NeX store will be an addition to the items already, if CCP keeps the pricing as it is now (I agree, for current items way too high), this will mean like $2000 (or more idk just a lot) for a gold raven. Srsly, I don't give a **** that ppl are willing to pay that for 'an edge', just bring more dps and see the gold raven owner cry even harder then when they lose their faction cnr.
Anyway, I don't think the market/industry/production business will take a huge hit, The team at CCP responsible for thinking this through has to be pretty stupid to not see the possible side-effects implementing a given solution.
TL;DR STFU 'til after the meeting and preferably 'til after plans have been revealed, everything that has been *****ed about the last couple of days has been pure speculation and it's ****ing me off. |
Kate Rygel
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:45:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Sjugar
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sjugar I don't care where my ships come from
àand that probably explains why you're so confused about how the market works and don't understand why PLEX is different from MT.
This just the small but vocal Market Discussions crowd who need everyone to use market to protect their profits.
For normal player who is not interested in market there's no difference. As long as he can buy stuff with isk doesn't matter where it comes from.
Newsflash, with the ISK you get from selling PLEX you buy ships from the market. Those ships are made by industrialists. If/when CCP ****s up the market by forcing the industrialists to compete with AUR "out-of-thin-air" magic ships/ammo/turrets/etc, builders will give up and stop building ships.
So it doesn't matter that you don't care, or that you don't understand the market, you will feel the effects anyway. That's what happens when fixed-value, out-of-game items are shoved into a sandbox economy. They're potentially ****ting on your sandcastle and you don't care?
Weak.
Note: I am against any and all MT, including the Plex crap.
So what your saying is, You don't care what part of the game CCP screws with their MT bullcrap, as long as they don't touch your precious industrialists. That argument doesn't hold weight with me.
Plex is pay to win regardless of wether some industrialist got rich in the process. The guy using the plex doesn't give a rats ass where the equipment or fully skilled up character came from. To him it works like this: He starts the game today and buys a bunch of plex from CCP, sells the Plex to players for ISK, buys a fully skilled char from Bazaar, buys the ship and all the best equipment, starts blowing up newbs and acting like your typical Eve asshat...
It doesn't matter at all that the materials were generated by other players TO THAT GUY using real money to get ahead. He still gets it instantly and without effort, because the market is saturated with goods. Sure it matters to the industrialists, they are getting rich off it. And that is the ONLY reason you hear them arguing now. Eve started down this road when they added Plex, and you should have known this was coming.
Now, if you want to argue that 'it's the player not the char' and 'he'll just lose the ship because he's still a newb'. I will agree, but that's the case if he used AUR to buy the crap too so doesn't really matter.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:50:00 -
[45]
I would like to make a point about plex-for-ISK.
Even if you get a whole truckload of ISK by selling plex, that ISK is never, ever able to buy anything that regular ISK you get from other sources isn't. It also can't buy anything that wasn't produced through the effort of players.
I don't neccessarily like plex-for-ISK, but it isn't Aurum-for-SP or Aurum-for-faction standings. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Hekira Soikutsu
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:50:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Hekira Soikutsu on 27/06/2011 12:52:07 NeX store represents UNLIMITED supply. If they put officer or equivalent items on the market...
A client walks into the store.
"Hai I would like 1000x of Estamel's modified invulnerability fields to fit my lolvern fleet with."
"Thank you sir, will that be with Plex or credit?"
"Credit."
You will not be able to buy 1000 Estamel's with any amount of Isk in game.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:51:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Yoko Fumimasa OK, so this is a brief summary of the past few days. Now, can anyone tell me where exactly is stated that the NeX is a replacement for the current market?
No-one is saying that, so why are you asking?
Quote: Look at the LP store, and please don't be *****ing about the amount of effort it takes to gather LP
Then we cannot look at the LP store, because that is the exact thing that makes it markedly different from the NeX: LP stores have a built-in, game-mechanics regulated, supply limit; the NeX does not. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP |
Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:53:00 -
[48]
As a point of order, the "in-game economy" is a lie.
It is as player driven as CCP allows it, which in reality is not much.
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Sjugar
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:55:00 -
[49]
Where insurance provides a low-cap on the ships market, aurum provides a high-cap if and only if they sell similar to player made items in the Noble Store.
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Yoko Fumimasa
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:56:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Yoko Fumimasa OK, so this is a brief summary of the past few days. Now, can anyone tell me where exactly is stated that the NeX is a replacement for the current market?
No-one is saying that, so why are you asking?
Answer the question!!!1!!1!
Notice any resemblance with the other threads here? |
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Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:56:00 -
[51]
Another question is if there was no PLEX how much emptier would EVE be because there is a part of the players that would not play this game if there were no PLEX.
Less players mean less market transaction meaning less gameplay.
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Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2011.06.27 12:59:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Noran Ferah As a point of order, the "in-game economy" is a lie.
It is as player driven as CCP allows it, which in reality is not much.
Which is still much more player driven than spawning unlimited amounts of ships, modules and ammo with the sweep of the credit card.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.27 13:00:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Yoko Fumimasa Notice any resemblance with the other threads here?
You created a strawman, just like the people who are saying that everyone should stop crying about monocles.
So yes, there is a resemblance.
At any rate, you're asking a question that there is no answer to because no-one has made the kind of claim you want to have presented to you as an answer. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP |
Sjugar
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Posted - 2011.06.27 13:00:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Estephania
Originally by: Noran Ferah As a point of order, the "in-game economy" is a lie.
It is as player driven as CCP allows it, which in reality is not much.
Which is still much more player driven than spawning unlimited amounts of ships, modules and ammo with the sweep of the credit card.
The conversion is plex to aurum so you don't need to spend real money to get them items you can grind isk, buy plex and get items.
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Discrodia
Gallente Symbiosis International Moose Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.27 13:01:00 -
[55]
Someone seriously needs to make a sticky about this....
Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
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Hekira Soikutsu
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Posted - 2011.06.27 13:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Yoko Fumimasa
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Yoko Fumimasa OK, so this is a brief summary of the past few days. Now, can anyone tell me where exactly is stated that the NeX is a replacement for the current market?
No-one is saying that, so why are you asking?
Answer the question!!!1!!1!
Notice any resemblance with the other threads here?
We've asked CCP whether they'd be selling ships/modules/ammo for aurum. Zulu said no to ammo. You can see where this is going.
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pipvac
Sacred Templars RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.06.27 13:02:00 -
[57]
Imagine a world of walking in stations. Where the avatar is as much a symbol of who you are as the car you drive or the clothes you wear.
Imagine a world of user definable clothing, where colours, textures, and basic design options can be 'tailored' to suit the needs of the individual, corp or alliance.
Imagine a world where corps and alliances differentiate themselves by how they look, the clothes they wear, and the uniforms they adhorn.
Imagine an alliance who incentivises its elite with unique vanity items designed for this purpose, which becomes a requirement for participation. Ranked players, with vanity items which define their role and status.
Imagine a world where ships in space are differentiated in their fleets not just be role, but by the paint job they use to show it.
Imagine a world where you can by an implant to accelerate skill point acquisition by a fixed percentage.
Imagine a world where you can buy a specialised hybrid turret with enhanced rate of fire, tracking, or damage modifiers.
Imagine a world where you can buy that extra low/mid/hi slot for your favourite ship.
Imagine a world where anyone, no matter how skilled or how long in the game can purchase any and all of these items as often as they wish, for real world cash.
Just imagine... Desperately seeking originality since the first "can I have your stuff" since 2003. |
Tla Atij
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Posted - 2011.06.27 13:04:00 -
[58]
Sooooo aren't NeX items like NPC goods for which there are no blueprints?
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.27 13:06:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Zanes Shoubje Another question is if there was no PLEX how much emptier would EVE be because there is a part of the players that would not play this game if there were no PLEX.
Less players mean less market transaction meaning less gameplay.
On that note maybe CCP could have used some of that extra money from PLEX and it is extra money as there are 'too many plex' stock piled in the game to improve gameplay and make EVE a much better value for the monthly sub. More people would play if they game was larger in the content it had by making it work better and 'iterating' on all the things they've left to linger for years.
Plenty of people play by using PLEX because they can, they can make the isk so why spend their own money if they are ISK rich/successful in game? Some do it because they can't afford the sub, others do it because they don't think the game is worth the sub and would leave if they couldn't play using PLEX. Still others are not able to pay with the options CCP accepts for payment.
The only people that would be lost and 'missed' are those that can't afford the sub cost OR can't pay using the limited payment methods CCP accepts. If the game is worth it you pay, if it isn't you do something else.
Originally by: Ghoest Ill watch what you do not what you say.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
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Posted - 2011.06.27 13:08:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris I would like to make a point about plex-for-ISK.
Even if you get a whole truckload of ISK by selling plex, that ISK is never, ever able to buy anything that regular ISK you get from other sources isn't. It also can't buy anything that wasn't produced through the effort of players.
I don't neccessarily like plex-for-ISK, but it isn't Aurum-for-SP or Aurum-for-faction standings.
PLEX also means that someone is getting game time and that gets used up. It grows the player base. I don't see Aur directly doing that because Second Life is way out of EVE's league. Greetings and salutations all who reside here. May your flames be warm and your trolls tasty. |
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