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Which nightmare fit?

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Moroccan Tourist	Posted - 2011.06.05 11:13:00 - [1] I've been using this nightmare fit for a quite long time , and it does the job quite efficiently [Nightmare, 1] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Pith B-Type Photon Scattering Field Pith B-Type Photon Scattering Field Pith B-Type Heat Dissipation Field Pith B-Type Heat Dissipation Field X-Large Shield Booster II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I with booster off 51% cap stable but at the time i didnt have this skills for T2 large guns so now that i have EFT tells me that a t2 tach have better dmg than navy tach but bigger consumption , so my idea was to sell the navy tach and get a dead space booster [Nightmare, 2] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Pith B-Type Heat Dissipation Field Pith B-Type Heat Dissipation Field Pith B-Type Photon Scattering Field Pith B-Type Photon Scattering Field Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II with booster off 20min cap the problem is : it isnt cap stable with the booster off so it bother me a bit and i gain around 40 dps with this , with the extra cap i have i can pulse the booster and do almost all missions without having to use the cap booster ... is it worth the upgrade ?
Blazie Minmatar Drekkar Research and Development	Posted - 2011.06.05 12:47:00 - [2] If it takes you over 20 minutes to clear a room with a nightmare, you're doing it wrong. With proper range you're going to 1-3 volley any sub-bs target, and battleships won't hold for long. You can easily get away with fitting a low end pith booster and just pulsing when needed.
Moroccan Tourist	Posted - 2011.06.05 12:57:00 - [3] well it doesnt actualy take more than 20mins even for a blockade, i have a good margine for pusling the shield booster with the navy tachs , the cap is always around 33%-51% , a none stable fit w/ the booster the cap should be around 33% so there isn't much room for pusling since if the cap drops below 33% i get less cap regen
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.05 15:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Moroccan Tourist well it doesnt actualy take more than 20mins even for a blockade, i have a good margine for pusling the shield booster with the navy tachs , the cap is always around 33%-51% , a none stable fit w/ the booster the cap should be around 33% so there isn't much room for pusling since if the cap drops below 33% i get less cap regen There are a few things I would change. You're definately on the right track dropping the faction guns and picking up the deadspace booster, but I would choose the Pith A-type. It's pretty cheap and returns a lot of shield HP with a pulse. Secondly, drop that second thermal hardener for a second faction tracking computer. Add an auto targeting system II in the highs so you can lock 10 targets at once. This helps you kill frigates much faster as lock speed is the lmiting factor preventing you from melting them all before they close inside your tracking. Drop that cap booster for a afterburner when the mission calls for it. Most missions I just bring the AB, but the long ones where you sit basically in one spot as streams of enemies come at you, then bring the booster. You should be looking at very roughly 7.25 minutes of cap with guns, 4.6 with guns and AB and 1.1 or 1.2 with it all running. Pulse the shield when you have to, if you have to. It looks like a big cap drain but in most missions not much should be getting a chance to shoot at you. Don't be afraid of the low cap numbers.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.05 23:18:00 - [5] For stable T2 tachs, just fit 2x T2 EDE rigs and 1 Anti-Therm rig. You'll need to sacrifice a mid-slot for a Cap Recharger. You will also need a PG4 or PG8 implant if your skills are high enough, or fit instead a medium cap booster to top up. Tbh, getting the last 2-10% extra dmg (not dps) from the T2 spec skill is a lot of work, which imo isn't worth the trouble for T2 beams. It will appeal to min/maxer players, however.
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.06 01:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Sturmwolke For stable T2 tachs, just fit 2x T2 EDE rigs and 1 Anti-Therm rig. You'll need to sacrifice a mid-slot for a Cap Recharger. You will also need a PG4 or PG8 implant if your skills are high enough, or fit instead a medium cap booster to top up. Tbh, getting the last 2-10% extra dmg (not dps) from the T2 spec skill is a lot of work, which imo isn't worth the trouble for T2 beams. It will appeal to min/maxer players, however. I don't even really know what you're talking about. Damage (not DPS)? Define the difference in this case. It does give you 10% more damage per shot, and since the rate at which you shoot doesn't change, it is also 10% more damage per second. Also, don't try to make a nightmare cap stable. You're fitting against its purpose. If you plan to take forver on a mission, use another ship. Anything less than forever and you don't need your cap to last that long.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.06 12:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Tenzeck I don't even really know what you're talking about. Damage (not DPS)? Define the difference in this case. It does give you 10% more damage per shot, and since the rate at which you shoot doesn't change, it is also 10% more damage per second. Also, don't try to make a nightmare cap stable. You're fitting against its purpose. If you plan to take forver on a mission, use another ship. Anything less than forever and you don't need your cap to last that long. Brainfart moment for the first case. As for the second case, there is a difference between stable guns and cap stable nightmare - the former meaning that you can keep firing forever without depleting your cap. It's a fairly important distinction as it extends loiter time for the Nightmare in long missions and makes it easier to run multiple missions without having to dock each time for cap booster reloads. Read the OP and refer to what he means for the term "boosters".
McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2011.06.06 12:59:00 - [8] Edited by: McRoll on 06/06/2011 13:01:10 A couple of things to consider: - you can fit one or two large faction NOS in the remaining high slots (2 would require at least a power diagnostic system in the lowslot). The faction NOS'es have 30 km range and help a lot with the cap if you let one NPC orbit you inside that range and just suck the juice from him. - Try out different combinations of rigs. I would consider changing one CCC to a semiconductor memory cell, which gives you more cap amount (and with this a small cap recharge bonus as well) - Look at the different complex hardeners. I think the gist hardeners require a bit less cap. You already covered the shield booster cap use. Edit: you already have one cap booster fitted. This should actually cover your cap problems.
Neamus	Posted - 2011.06.06 13:20:00 - [9] My Paladin runs out of cap in less than 4 minutes, and I don't use boosters. You simply don't need cap stability for lvl4's, as long as you know how to manage your cap then you're fine. You can easily afford to fit your t2 tachs without changing anything else. In fact you can do that and still drop one of your cap rigs for more dps if you like.
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.08 03:19:00 - [10] Edited by: Tenzeck on 08/06/2011 03:20:48 Originally by: Sturmwolke As for the second case, there is a difference between stable guns and cap stable nightmare - the former meaning that you can keep firing forever without depleting your cap. It's a fairly important distinction as it extends loiter time for the Nightmare in long missions and makes it easier to run multiple missions without having to dock each time for cap booster reloads. Read the OP and refer to what he means for the term "boosters". He uses the term "booster" when he means shield booster, and "cap booster" when he means, obviously cap booster. What's your point? That seems a bit tangential. I didn't mention the cap booster specifically. I don't even have one on my basic fit that I posted here, so there is no issue with returning for more charges after each mission. You have 4 total cap mods on that ship and it's overtanked at the same time. That's a lot of wasted spots. The Nightmare has a big capacitor and it's more capable than you're giving it credit for. I think your overcompensating fit is causing you the problems you're observing. I bolded the part of your quote where the disjunction between the reason for your fit and the reason to fly a Nightmare occurs. It flies like a much better ship if you don't think of extending the time you can stay in a mission, and instead think of reducing the time it will take. If you don't have this mindset, the Nightmare really is only an average ship and you'd be better off in several other battleships that better suit your style. I think that's as clear as I can make myself. I posted my own suggestion for a fit on this thread. You may think it has too little tank and not enough cap, but it's a fairly generic and very commonly used Nightmare fit except maybe the specific choice of B-type hardeners I took from the original post. It's a proven fit and really lacks the problems you're trying to fix - so they're not problems with the Nightmare.

Moroccan Tourist	Posted - 2011.06.08 12:23:00 - [11] My fit was based on the following idea : Cap stable fit with hardeners and guns on cap/shield boosters off , and a good buffer so i dont have to use the shield booster a lot and can sustain a lot of early dmg ,that gives enough time to blow up everything ... like i said earlier this fit is cap stable a 51% with only guns firing , it gives a good margin to pulse the shield booster till 33% cap , wait for the cap regen and redo again when needed . After i got t2 guns i found out on EFT that their dmg is the same when the spec skill is at 2 , so there is a margin of 4-6% to gain , on the other hand i lose the cap stability since they use around 30% more cap consumption which is a lot . To sum the upgrade gives more dps , more regen (dead space booster), and less cap , with the same cost (i dont want a gank me please sort of fits )... well i think its a good trade , but im not sure if i can solo the blockade anymore @Tenzeck yeah the target module is a nice idea tbh , i'll be using that ... and the 2 tracking computer not so much i prefer the safety of a cap booster
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.08 18:00:00 - [12] Edited by: Tenzeck on 08/06/2011 18:01:47 If you require a cap booster, then replace the afterburner in the fit I have shown with it. It may be necessary in a mission like The Blockade. You should have no issues with it assuming your skills are up to a reasonable level. Edit: phone posting woes.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.08 22:46:00 - [13] Edited by: Sturmwolke on 08/06/2011 22:46:35 Originally by: Tenzeck Post #10 Defend my fit for what? Juvenile chest beating for some wannabe expert? I offered a solution to the OP, centering on balancing cap conservation - keeping the resists as high as possible so to ensure that every bit of cap used for shield boosting is put to good use. It was further clarified in my second post. Whether he chose to heed it, that's up to the OP. edit:format
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.09 00:02:00 - [14] Originally by: Sturmwolke Defend my fit for what? Juvenile chest beating for some wannabe expert? Actually, I meant defend in the logical discussion sense. I was offering a criticism on your build and describing the reasons, and was hoping for more than personal attacks to answer my concerns. The problem is that your solution exacerbates the problem by attacking it from the wrong angle, causing the build to waste slots that could be put to more direct use. Explaining the same reasoning for the build over and over doesn't address that problem, nor does distracting from the discussion with insults. I did not originate the build that I posted. As I said, it's a fairly generic fit that pretty much everyone does eventually arrive at, and for good reason. Attacking me for claiming to be an expert is misplaced when just about anyone who has flown a level 4 mission nightmare long term is most likely familiar with a very similar build. If my adamance that your build is flawed is putting you off and making you unusually defensive, I apologize. My goal is only to prevent a new player from taking some dubious advice. It's nothing personal.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.09 00:45:00 - [15] There are several reasons why I wouldn't bother dealing with an extended discourse on the fits : 1) Your failure to read and understand the OP properly. Any typical (i.e. not min-maxers) Nightmare pilots understand the need for stable guns, or you will get into a death spiral of consuming cap boosters for everything. Mission times are irrelevant as the aim is to build a general mission boat which isn't a pain to use over time. Anyone who's familiar with both Nightmares and Paladins can attest that a Paladin is easier to use. 2) Your allusion/insistence that a ship needs to be built in a particular way - that is the only right way. The whole idea itself is wrong because : a) different folks have different style of play, thus they have different needs and b) cap/dps/def is always a balancing act limited by the number of slots, and thus requiring certain trade-offs. 3) Inane replies, characteristics of troll rather than any solid substance. 4) The fit you posted isn't a generic proper fit. A proper Nightmare has a minimum 1x T2 EDE rigs. Be my guest, continue with your goal. It is a noble one indeed. You have my sincere apologies for refusing to deal with philistines, nothing personal of course.
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.09 03:18:00 - [16] Ships in EVE have basic purposes they're designed for and choosing the correct ship for your style is part of designing the correct ship. You're trying to portray the concept of fitting a ship for its intended role as if it's some evil plot. It's a pretty important part of making a fit in EVE. Start with the right hull for the role you wish to accomplish. That's not limiting play styles. That should be common sense EVE 101 basic stuff. - You can't get into a death spiral of consuming cap booster charges if you don't even need to fit a cap booster. - The EDE rigs are why you think you need a cap booster. CCCs give you the ability to recharge cap that you're crutching on the cap booster for when it isn't necessary except in a few marathon missions. This is how it works. The EDE rigs do not regenerate cap. They just help you conserve it with your guns and not your afterburner or tank. If you need to use anything other than your guns you start to get behind and end up in your "death spiral". You can equate three tech 1 CCC rigs to roughly using a cap booster 200 charge loaded in a tech 2 large booster constantly every time the cycle comes up again, if this helps you put the idea into perspective. This frees up slots to make your offense more potent, and so the mission gets done faster. You realize you're not taking much damage before you kill most of the threats, so you scale back your tank. Your DPS improves further; missions get done faster and you take even less damage. You're eventually getting to the point where things are dead before you even need to pulse the shield booster in all but the longest missions. It's pretty simple 2 + 2 = 4 stuff, and that's why people eventually arrive at the fit. You're stuck on the EDEs so you're stuck with the cap booster "death spiral" and missing out on the loop that takes you the other way. Give it a try and you won't be sorry. Quote: 4) The fit you posted isn't a generic proper fit. A proper Nightmare has a minimum 1x T2 EDE rigs. The context is level 4 missions. The Nightmare can be fit for other purposes where EDEs make sense as part of a "proper" fit. When you realize that you're able to melt the crap out of everything before it becomes a threat and quickly move on to the next mission, you realize making sacrifices for staying power is a waste. That's really as simple as it gets.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.09 17:20:00 - [17] In the context of PVE ships, there are several philosophies behind ship design. The major ones are : - Min-maxers. Typical gank fit with heavy leaning towards offensive mods, low cap and tank. - Middle-ground. The middle ground where dps, cap and tank is balanced to achieve the desired effect/ease of use. - Starter. Fits for low skill or low isk starters. As such, each of the above will show minor differences in the low/mid/high and rig slot arrangements depending on the philosophies behind them. Optimal ship designs can only be achieved once you've set your goals to what is important to you - in addition to keeping an awareness to the trade-offs, stacking penalties and the rule of thumb to optimal module mix. If high dps is important, the tank/cap will certainly suffer - and vice-versa. In the context of the Nightmare, there is NO rule saying that it needs to be built for max dps, as long as the dps basics have been fulfilled. This basic is simple, minimum 4 lows for HS/TE and 1 mid for a TC. As I'd mentioned earlier, going for the last 10% or thereabout extra dps will involve a lot of work if you wish to keep the cap/tank at status quo. The crux of the OP's dilemma is trading the extra 40dps for a sacrifice in cap longevity, which resulted in unstable guns. Technically, it's really a non-issue which can simply be solved by the cap booster. However, since the OP displayed concerns about having to rely heavily on the cap booster (which can be a real pain in the ass for casual players), it's safe to assume that he's looking a for a build which addresses the cap concern with acceptable sacrifices .... so that he can run the T2 tachs just like his previous Faction tach build. You come in spouting nonsense without actually offering a solution. As per the points you put forward, again, there's a lot more noise than susbstance. - Nightmares don't need to fit a cap booster? What sort of point is this? - The principle behind EDE rigs is to conserve cap (I hear myself repeating this yet again), and working in tandem with cap boosters the single rig slot is put to better use than a 3rd CCC for a typical Nightmare. Why is it better? In any typical mission, you will fire your guns for longer (aka almost continuously) than you will be boosting shields. The end result speaks for itself. Now do you understand the need for stable guns? - Typical min-maxer (gank) configuration with 4 HS and 3 hardeners sets them up to burn more cap when boosting shields, in addition to sacrificing the several seconds safety and extra shield resists offered by a DCII & 4th hardener. This can be most glaringly observed when running against Sansha/Blood NPCs. Yet you're pushing this as the basic build for a Nightmare in the PVE context, in the hope that newbies will adopt it? I don't have issues with the build per se, as it's a valid gank fit. I run into issues with folks who fail to distinguish the differences between the fitting philosophies. Overall, you're dispensing "pseudo" advices with a narrow view towards the whole picture. For many un-initiated/newbie forum reader these advices may seem reasonable indeed, giving the false impression that you really know what you're talking about - which I've no doubt please you greatly with the recognition you seek. You and I both know that this is a ****ing contest for e-peen, due to the simple fact that you failed at reading and don't like to be corrected, moving the goal post to inane topics on fit - which I won't be assed to reply for your next post. I have made my position clear.
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.09 22:32:00 - [18] Edited by: Tenzeck on 09/06/2011 22:37:13 Originally by: Sturmwolke The principle behind EDE rigs is to conserve cap (I hear myself repeating this yet again), and working in tandem with cap boosters the single rig slot is put to better use than a 3rd CCC for a typical Nightmare. Why is it better? In any typical mission, you will fire your guns for longer (aka almost continuously) than you will be boosting shields. The end result speaks for itself. Now do you understand the need for stable guns? You keep repeating it as if itFs some fact when itFs the very thing I have been objecting to all along. I donFt know what purpose there is to just repeating it again and again and pretending that somehow supports the idea or adds weight to it. The fundamental flaw with your explanation is that it doesnFt matter which you use more. It only matters if you have enough capacitor to complete the mission. While the EDE only slows down cap use when you're using your guns, the CCC always provides a steady cap income when you're using a warp gate, flying to the next mission, etc. It recovers cap used in any way. The EDE leaves your regen low, forcing you to make up for it with cap boosters when you get behind. Using the EDE is allowing for the fact that you're going to be in the mission for an extended period. ThatFs no way to plan for a level 4 mission nightmare fit because it doesnFt help you achieve the basic goal of finishing a mission as quickly as possible and moving on. If you want to make the argument that not everyone wants to play that way, that's fine and I wouldn't argue that. I would simply question why that person is using a Nightmare in the first place. You'd do much better in a ship like the Navy Scorpion or Rattlesnake if you want great staying power with decent DPS and easy missions. That should be obvious but instead of taking the point you're just trying to twist that into me attacking play style choice freedoms, which is absurd. Originally by: Sturmwolke Nightmares don't need to fit a cap booster? What sort of point is this? YouFre the one that has made an issue of EDEs being required so that you donFt have to guzzle cap boosters. Pay attention to your own arguments. Here are quotes when you state that having stable guns by using EDE rigs solves the problem of going through cap boosters too fast. Originally by: Sturmwolke It's a fairly important distinction as it extends loiter time for the Nightmare in long missions and makes it easier to run multiple missions without having to dock each time for cap booster reloads Originally by: Sturmwolke Nightmare pilots understand the need for stable guns, or you will get into a death spiral of consuming cap boosters for everything. If another fit has enough cap efficiency not to need to fit a cap booster, you canFt possibly be guzzling cap boosters. I am having a hard time believing that you canFt grasp this. You keep stating things that you see as problems and talking as though your fit is the only legitimate way to solve it. Ironically you take time outs in between repeating this to attack me for saying there is an optimal fit for a Nightmare. What you're not getting is that the problems you're "solving" don't even exist for a Nightmare that isn't fit the way you're pushing. You're creating your own problems and then spending extra slots to correct them. That's why your fit isn't optimal. It's not a question of style. It's a question of getting more out of the ship by fixing some mistakes.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.10 00:23:00 - [19] Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Let me just do a selective quote as I cba to spend time writing a retort for the pointless fitting arguments. Quote: What you're not getting is that the problems you're "solving" don't even exist for a Nightmare that isn't fit the way you're pushing. You're creating your own problems and then spending extra slots to correct them. That's why your fit isn't optimal. This is complete BS for a large number of players (if incursions fits is used as a measurement stick to gauge how players fit their ships). Whether you acknowledge it or not, the mission environment out there varies from several minutes to several tenths of minutes. The elitist thinking that if you have a Nightmare, a mission shouldn't last longer before its cap goes dead is a complete BS - I shouldn't even need to explain why. This is a fact that you buried. That rules out non-cap boosted Nightmare out of the equation as a general mission boat. This means you will have to solve the cap problem if you wish to reduce your cap booster consumption OR just suck up and live with it. Let me state another fact for you, this particular configuration isn't for any min-maxer players who wishes to to min-max their boats's slot efficiency and blitz their missions. The reason is obvious, which you've unbelievably missed to note or acknowledge in your zeal. There is no basis for your arguments for the last few posts. Quote: It's not a question of style. It's a question of getting more out of the ship by fixing some mistakes. No. It's very much a question of style as player abilities varies across the board, not from just the SP standpoint. You sort order from chaos by defining a set rule of thumb or guideline when building a ship for any purpose. The issue of slot efficiency only comes into question when you're evaluating tradeoff benefits after the guidlines have been adhered to or fulfilled. You're confusing efficiency/inefficiency as an absolute concept, when it's actually relative.
Nakkano	Posted - 2011.06.10 03:00:00 - [20] You need to use at least 2 Large Energy Discharge Elutriation.

Aamrr	Posted - 2011.06.10 04:57:00 - [21] Edited by: Aamrr on 10/06/2011 04:57:46 Originally by: Nakkano You need to use at least 2 Large Energy Discharge Elutriation. The Nightmare isn't the only ship I use, and I have better uses for my slot-6 implant than 5% more powergrid. On the other hand, you are right. A Nightmare needs capacitor-stable guns, and there's no way to accomplish that with only two slots short of elutriation rigs. Given these constraints, this is the best I could put together. On the plus side, I can swap in an afterburner, should a mission require it. [Nightmare, TachBoost] Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Small Tractor Beam I Auto Targeting System II Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Imperial Navy Medium Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800 Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Photon Scattering Field II Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Tracking Enhancer II Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.10 20:38:00 - [22] Edited by: Tenzeck on 10/06/2011 20:41:10 Originally by: Sturmwolke This is complete BS for a large number of players (if incursions fits is used as a measurement stick to gauge how players fit their ships). 1) This thread has never been about Incursions. The original poster's sample fits are set up for missions. An Incursion boat would look nothing like that. 2) I have said very specifically that my fit and the ideas supporting it pertain to level 4 missions. 3) I would never expect anyone to think that fits/advice for level 4 missions would be interchangable with those for Incursions. You'd probably have a stroke if you saw my Incursion Nightmare, though, based on what you seem to think is impossible. I don't have any EDE, CCC or cap boosters on it. As long as I don't get neuted in an OTA pure base regen is plenty for me, and we even hit the next gate as soon as we land. I do have power projectors for cap chaining with other mares/logistics in case we're running OTAs, though. Sometimes if we run a single logi it might be my task to cap chain with him. Quote: Whether you acknowledge it or not, the mission environment out there varies from several minutes to several tenths of minutes. That rules out non-cap boosted Nightmare out of the equation as a general mission boat. A tenth of a minute is 6 seconds. Did you mean to say tens of minutes? There are two missions that I can think of that take me more than 10 minutes. AE and WC, but both are broken up into many small pockets that take less than 5 minutes each. I will admit that I don't use my Nightmare for Angel missions because they're just poorly suited to them, so AE doesn't concern me there. This leaves me with 2 missions in Amarr space that I ever need to fit a cap booster for, WC and Blockade. I simply switch out the afterburner as I advised the original poster to do in an earlier post here on this thread. Problem solved, and you can pop that AB back in for anything else. The Blockade is only about 7 minutes, but that's how long my guns last so it requires the booster. Quote: No. It's very much a question of style as player abilities varies across the board, not from just the SP standpoint. You sort order from chaos by defining a set rule of thumb or guideline when building a ship for any purpose. Any purpose within the context of missions, or any purpose at all? There is no one fit that can be expected to do Incursions, Sleepers, regular missions, PvP and whatever else you might like to do. Guidelines have to have some sort of focus. "Make it do everything well with a single unchanging fit" isn't a guideline. Also, I have said many times now that I have been talking about a level 4 mission boat. If you want to keep applying my ideas to things that aren't level 4 missions you're not going to get anywhere.
Brinxter	Posted - 2011.06.11 08:22:00 - [23] Would you mind sharing your Incursion fit? If you rather not polute /derail this thread, might i get it in a pm?
Rei N	Posted - 2011.06.12 07:10:00 - [24] I've tried almost every Nightmare fit possible, and nothing beats Pulse lasers ) Tachyons are just too slow. Pulses with Scorch easily hit 70km+ with nice DPS and insane DPS with Multis <30km. I would recommend pulse tank as well, with that level of DPS you just need a few booster cycles to tank almost anything, and you can run heavy cap booster with 800's if things go wrong and get insane tank for a few minutes.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.06.12 07:21:00 - [25] You haven't been grouping all your turrets, I hope? Tachyon Nightmares are supposed to run with (at least) two groups of guns. Otherwise you're wasting a ton of your volley damage. I guarantee you, two groups of tachyons cycle faster than one group of mega pulse.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.06.12 11:06:00 - [26] I tried almost every nightmare fit, and pulses dont even come close to efficiency of tachyons. The moment you will be able to clear blockade in 14 mins in your pulse nightmare, let me know.
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.12 14:50:00 - [27] Edited by: Tenzeck on 12/06/2011 14:55:27 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 I tried almost every nightmare fit, and pulses dont even come close to efficiency of tachyons. The moment you will be able to clear blockade in 14 mins in your pulse nightmare, let me know. Pulse lasers certainly have their place, but I agree that there are a lot of missions where if you had Tachs you'd be done with everything before they get into MF range for the pulses. I keep a set at each of my mission agents' stations to switch to them for some missions. If it's not convenient to change at the moment, I will tend to stick to beams, though. 14 minutes in the blockade really isn't fast, though. You should be able to get under 10 in a nightmare. Also, to answer the earlier post: Originally by: Brinxter Would you mind sharing your Incursion fit? Here is the basic fit with empty slots where I change them for my purpose. [Nightmare, Nightmare VG Sites Template] Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Gist X-Type Heat Dissipation Field Gist B-Type Photon Scattering Field [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink Damage Control II Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Energy Metastasis Adjuster II Large Core Defence Field Extender I Hammerhead II x5 So what do I put in the empty slots? In the two highs: I put a True Sansha Heavy NOS and an Auto Targeting System II if I expect not to be chaining with anyone. This provides me with enough cap to counter the cap draining from the battleships in OTAs. If I am cap chaining with someone with good enough skills, I use one large regard projector and one auto targeting system II. I'll use 2 Large Regard Projectors if I the person I am chaining with needs the second one. Sharing just one cap trasnfer between myself and another pilot allows me to remain totally stable. In the two mids: I put two Fed Navy webs and a Serpentis TC if I plan to be a webbing battleship. If we already have 4-5 good webbers and that seems covered, then one sensor booster and two tracking computers to focus on applying my damage to the best of my ability. I toyed around with bringing target painting when webbing was covered, but found it wasn't really necessary with the rate things die once they're webbed. Also, I bring 3x Heavy shield bot II for situations where we're running logistics light. :) The faction tank isn't necessary usually. I found it made me feel safer when cap chaining with a single logistics because it tends to get me targetted as much as it does if I was flying a logi, and it's a bit slower to get everyone's heavy repair bots on you than it would be with a second logi. As shown the tank is 131k EHP with 86.3k shield EHP. Drop down to two tech 2 invuln fields and you still get 117k / 72.2k
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.12 19:32:00 - [28] Edited by: Sturmwolke on 12/06/2011 19:36:59 Originally by: Tenzeck 1) This thread has never been about Incursions. The original poster's sample fits are set up for missions. An Incursion boat would look nothing like that. Again and again, your reading skills fail in understanding the relative context of the WHOLE paragraph to convey the idea. Do you understand why it was mentioned? (clue: it's not about incursions) Originally by: Tenzeck 2) I have said very specifically that my fit and the ideas supporting it pertain to level 4 missions. Why should I bother debating/commenting on your fit? I wasn't even bothered in my first post (#5) if you recall. Do you understand why? (clue: it's not about fits) Originally by: Tenzeck 3) I would never expect anyone to think that fits/advice for level 4 missions would be interchangable with those for Incursions. Far be it for me to call anyone too stupid to read and understand the whole context of the message, reading and taking them literally word by word. It would be a disservice to you as you seem fairly intelligent. Let's just settle it to whitless and clueless instead. Originally by: Tenzeck You'd probably have a stroke if you saw my Incursion Nightmare, though, based on what you seem to think is impossible. I don't have any EDE, CCC or cap boosters on it. As long as I don't get neuted in an OTA pure base regen is plenty for me, and we even hit the next gate as soon as we land. I do have power projectors for cap chaining with other mares/logistics in case we're running OTAs, though. Sometimes if we run a single logi it might be my task to cap chain with him. /me facepalms (clue: stop babbling) Originally by: Tenzeck A tenth of a minute is 6 seconds. Did you mean to say tens of minutes? There are two missions that I can think of that take me more than 10 minutes. AE and WC, but both are broken up into many small pockets that take less than 5 minutes each. I will admit that I don't use my Nightmare for Angel missions because they're just poorly suited to them, so AE doesn't concern me there. This leaves me with 2 missions in Amarr space that I ever need to fit a cap booster for, WC and Blockade. I simply switch out the afterburner as I advised the original poster to do in an earlier post here on this thread. Problem solved, and you can pop that AB back in for anything else. The Blockade is only about 7 minutes, but that's how long my guns last so it requires the booster. And exactly how much skills and how much experience have you had? Years I believe. How does YOUR skills and experience reflect on the number of players out there? What will you lose by having a similar Nightmare fitted with 4 HS and 1 TC (in the context of the average players)? Originally by: Tenzeck Any purpose within the context of missions, or any purpose at all? There is no one fit that can be expected to do Incursions, Sleepers, regular missions, PvP and whatever else you might like to do. Guidelines have to have some sort of focus. "Make it do everything well with a single unchanging fit" isn't a guideline. The above paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. First line is incomprehensible. Second line is stating the obvious. Third & fourth line reflects that you do not have a clear idea on the definition of the word "guideline". (clue: 3HS, 1TC / do not stack more than 3 modules (with exceptions) / etc etc.) Originally by: Tenzeck Also, I have said many times now that I have been talking about a level 4 mission boat. If you want to keep applying my ideas to things that aren't level 4 missions you're not going to get anywhere. /me double and triple facepalms edit:wording & grammar
Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.12 20:43:00 - [29] Edited by: Tenzeck on 12/06/2011 20:44:09 Originally by: Sturmwolke Again and again, your reading skills fail in understand the relative context of the WHOLE paragraph to convey the idea. Do you understand why it was mentioned? (clue: it's not about incursions) The words "Incursion Fits" have a meaning in common use. If you meant it another way you could have worded it more clearly or had a point that made sense in the context. I didn't want to assume that you were just repeating yourself that this is the only way to fit a Nightmare for the umpteenth time. You knew I disagreed with all of that before you typed it. This isn't a newbie's gudie to fitting a Nightmare, so how some random guy who can barely get into the ship must fit it doesn't have any relevance. The original poster is clearly moving on to a more advanced fit and is capable of understanding the tradeoff of DPS vs resources that his post was asking for advice on. Originally by: Sturmwolke And exactly how much skills and how much experience have you had? Years I believe. How does YOUR skills and experience reflect on the number of players out there? Indeed I have been playing EVE for years and I have spent many blocks over the years of several months where level 4 missions were how I spent most of my time in EVE. This is why I can speak about the game and not have to resort to personal attacks at every turn. My experiences as I am sharing here are to answer the question of the original poster. You can view the original poster's fits and see that he's progressing to a more advanced fit and wonders if the direction he's going is viable. The answer is certainly yes. The purpose of his change was, as he stated, gaining about 5% more DPS at the cost of capacitor longevity. My advice is guiding him in the direction his fit and goals want to go given that my answer to his question is that it is viable. You might say I was following the guidelines he spoke about in his original post. That's also why the 4th heatsink becomes a viable option when you reach this point in your comfort with the Nightmare. A general guideline like the example you offered of "never stack more than 3 of the same mod" makes general sense, but it's trumped by knowing the exact numbers and what doing so actually means for you. A 4th heat sink is worth more damage than changing to tech 2 guns, and it only costs you some overtank that really does nothing for you rather than all of that cap. Given a choice between the two options, I'd go with the 4th heat sink and keep the faction guns. However, you can do both at once if you are serious about that added damage. If he decides that the extra damage leaves him with a fit that he's not comfortable with for safety reasons, he can go another route. If he decides the extra damage is the route he wants to go, my advice is how he should look to progress. He can take it as far for now as he feels safe doing. I expect he's capable of understanding the explanations here and making the choice for himself. He can take the numbers from the fits and consider which ones suit him. If he finds out he wants the slower paced and safer missions, then it's still my recommendation to take a look at some ships that are better suited to that style of play. The numbers speak for themselves. There is no way to insult your way around it given we're talking to someone who has a deeper understanding and can see past the nonsense.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.12 22:44:00 - [30] Edited by: Sturmwolke on 12/06/2011 22:44:58 Originally by: Tenzeck The words "Incursion Fits" have a meaning in common use. If you meant it another way you could have worded it more clearly or had a point that made sense in the context. I didn't want to assume that you were just repeating yourself that this is the only way to fit a Nightmare for the umpteenth time. The "incursion fits" were mentioned because you were already familiar with the variety of fits that pops out in the incursion channels, which itself is proof that player skills and abilities varies across the board. For missioning, it is more difficult to gauge those abilities as they are not often public. Can you tell me what is the key point for the above? Originally by: Tenzeck You knew I disagreed with all of that before you typed it. This isn't a newbie's gudie to fitting a Nightmare, so how some random guy who can barely get into the ship must fit it doesn't have any relevance. The original poster is clearly moving on to a more advanced fit and is capable of understanding the tradeoff of DPS vs resources that his post was asking for advice on. Please re-read OP post #1 and #11 until you understand exactly what the OP was looking for. There is a difference between posting a fit and forcing your own personal ideas what a good fit is. Do you understand why? Originally by: Tenzeck Indeed I have been playing EVE for years and I have spent many blocks over the years of several months where level 4 missions were how I spent most of my time in EVE. This is why I can speak about the game and not have to resort to personal attacks at every turn. My experiences as I am sharing here are to answer the question of the original poster. You can view the original poster's fits and see that he's progressing to a more advanced fit and wonders if the direction he's going is viable. The answer is certainly yes. And you're the only person with that experience? I don't do personal attacks, I prefer to highlight certain deficiencies in reasoning with interesting words. Originally by: Tenzeck <fit discussion> Irrelevant. Originally by: Tenzeck I expect he's capable of understanding the explanations here and making the choice for himself. He can take the numbers from the fits and consider which ones suit him. If he finds out he wants the slower paced and safer missions, then it's still my recommendation to take a look at some ships that are better suited to that style of play. The numbers speak for themselves. There is no way to insult your way around it given we're talking to someone who has a deeper understanding and can see past the nonsense. So don't get into a Nightmare unless you've gank fitted it to the max, anything less and you're doing it wrong? That's the typical argument for min-maxer players which demonstrates their narrow thinking. You don't get to be a good fitter until you've outgrown those tendencies. Go back to post #5 and tell me again what I said (with regard to min-maxers). Go to post #19 and tell me what you understand by the word "relative" in the last sentence. Then lastly, go back again to post #13. Can you tell me what my position was? edit:format

Tenzeck	Posted - 2011.06.12 23:24:00 - [31] Edited by: Tenzeck on 12/06/2011 23:30:32 Quote: There is a difference between posting a fit and forcing your own personal ideas what a good fit is. The civil way to go about it is to explain the details that say why you feel like a fit is the best choice and offer options to be looked at if needs aren't met by the fit. A poor way to go about it would be to say that you absolutely must fit it in a certain way and characterize other options to be considered as an attack on playstyle freedoms. Quote: Please re-read OP post #1 and #11 until you understand exactly what the OP was looking for. I just went through that. You quite obviously believe the answer to his question is that it is not viable. My opinion is the opposite. Disagreeing is not misunderstanding. Originally by: Moroccan Tourist To sum the upgrade gives more dps , more regen (dead space booster), and less cap , with the same cost If you're reading the first line of his post and mistaking that he's explaining the cap stability of the old fit he's leaving as his goal, then take your own advice about rereading. You can see what his "upgrade" goals are. My fit offers yet more DPS, a stronger burst healing and a lower cost. This hits all three goals at the expense of cap, which he's clearly willing to accept to some degree as he says it directly. I don't see the disconnect you're having here. Quote: Can you tell me what my position was? You've never even directly answered any detail of my posts. You just side step with insults. Your position is that of someone with no knowledge of a subject who has been hurt by someone capable of giving experienced advice and taken it very personally. If you were capable of adding something of substance I am sure you would have done so by now. My nature is to respond because I don't want the original poster to mistakenly give any credit to what you're saying, but that is a flaw I'll need to work on as it makes me vulnerable to being trolled, apparently. If he could possibly read all of your ranting and still take you seriously then I couldn't have helped him to begin with. Questions have been answered and I have explained my part of it as clearly as I will be able to. No one is learning anything from our looping disagreement. This discussion has gone stale.
General Atrocity	Posted - 2011.06.13 01:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Neamus You simply don't need cap stability for lvl4's, as long as you know how to manage your cap then you're fine. thats NOT always the case. when I use my nm in missions I "HAVE" to be cap stable as i been known to drop/crash at the worst of times. also i more often than not full room agro depending on the mission. so by the tinme everything closes in they are dead and my drones take care of frigates and in the rare case cruisers. End of the day its what ever works for the user. yes some of them maybe fail fit liek shield tankers that use cap power relays to get cap stable and ruining thier shield boosting. but its different for shield transfers.
Judicator Saturnius Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.06.13 04:20:00 - [33] I like Ten's fit. vOv
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.13 05:06:00 - [34] Edited by: Sturmwolke on 13/06/2011 05:15:01 Originally by: Tenzeck The civil way to go about it is to explain the details that say why you feel like a fit is the best choice and offer options to be looked at if needs aren't met by the fit. A poor way to go about it would be to say that you absolutely must fit it in a certain way and characterize other options to be considered as an attack on playstyle freedoms. And here you are, on page 2 missing the point yet again. Try again, more brain effort please. Originally by: Tenzeck I just went through that. You quite obviously believe the answer to his question is that it is not viable. My opinion is the opposite. Disagreeing is not misunderstanding. If you're reading the first line of his post and mistaking that he's explaining the cap stability of the old fit he's leaving as his goal, then take your own advice about rereading. You can see what his "upgrade" goals are. "with booster off 51% cap stable" - denotes stable guns. In all likelyhood, he's already implanted with a CC8 and a Lancer G2 Beta to get that sort of stat. "[Nightmare, 1]" - 4th T2 HS denotes an undertanding of the stacking mechanics and best bang cost considerations. "[Nightmare, 2]" - denotes OP's (unstable) solution to the T2 tachs upgrade. Spot the T2 EDE rig. "it isnt cap stable with the booster off so it bother me a bit and i gain around 40 dps with this" - denotes an underlying concern and reluctance on the cap change from what he was used to. " ..with the extra cap i have i can pulse the booster and do almost all missions without having to use the cap booster " - this refers to the old Nightmare fit with faction guns and reinforces the OP's unspoken emphasis or preference for stable guns. Anyone already running stable guns on the old Nightmare knows about the pulsing and periodic syphoning of cap to boost shields in less stressful situations where a cap booster isn't always neeeded. Guess what you can do with the cap booster mid slot in those situations? "My fit was based on the following idea : .. To sum the upgrade gives more dps , more regen (dead space booster), and less cap , with the same cost (i dont want a gank me please sort of fits )... well i think its a good trade , but im not sure if i can solo the blockade anymore " - this in most likelyhood refers to the [Nightmare, 2] summary from the addition of deadspace boosters, increased dps and cap use from T2 tachs if you follow the whole context for his post. Only the OP can confirm this. "@Tenzeck yeah the target module is a nice idea tbh , i'll be using that ... and the 2 tracking computer not so much i prefer the safety of a cap booster" - again you can see the OP preferring cap booster on his Nightmare. With exception to one para, what were you saying again? Originally by: Tenzeck My fit offers yet more DPS, a stronger burst healing and a lower cost. This hits all three goals at the expense of cap, which he's clearly willing to accept to some degree as he says it directly. I don't see the disconnect you're having here. I'll tell you what, to make it simple since you obviously won't leave the issue of fittings aside. Run the math on -137 cap/s vs -68.8 cap/s. Don't concern yourself with : 1) Stable guns - because you won't achieve it. 2) Better cap efficiency for shield boost - because you won't achieve with Piths. 3) Less cap used for shield boost - because you won't achieve it with less resist. 4) Waiting more than 2-3 mins between missions to recharge your cap - because it's silly. On the bright side, you get to play with 1 extra TC, yay, joy ... fun fun. Now, what did the OP say about the TCs? On top of that, this is the 3rd time and final time I'm asking, please answer this question : "What will you lose by having a similar Nightmare fitted with 4 HS and 1 TC (in the context of the average players)?" .. to be cont
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2011.06.13 05:09:00 - [35] Edited by: Sturmwolke on 13/06/2011 05:12:11 ... cont Originally by: Tenzeck You've never even directly answered any detail of my posts. You just side step with insults. Your position is that of someone with no knowledge of a subject who has been hurt by someone capable of giving experienced advice and taken it very personally. If you were capable of adding something of substance I am sure you would have done so by now. Those details have been answered. Going into an extended fittings discourse with your type of psyche is a pointless exercise which I wouldn't even bother - not out of spite or malice, simply out of irritation that parents get when talking to rebellious teenagers (metaphorically speaking). There's a thousand and one reasons they'll come up with to prove their points, regardless of anything. Nitpicking, right down to microscope level. Originally by: Tenzeck My nature is to respond because I don't want the original poster to mistakenly give any credit to what you're saying, but that is a flaw I'll need to work on as it makes me vulnerable to being trolled, apparently. If he could possibly read all of your ranting and still take you seriously then I couldn't have helped him to begin with. Questions have been answered and I have explained my part of it as clearly as I will be able to. No one is learning anything from our looping disagreement. This discussion has gone stale. Oh, you mean the post #7 fit is wrong and flawed? Therefore you took it upon yourself to educate the public (and OP) about what a good Nightmare fit should be. tl;dr OP: I want a chocolate icecream You: Get a strawberry icecream, it taste better Me: Hmm .. chocolate icrecream is more expensive, but you can get one if you run an errand. You: No, I tell you strawberry is better ... because it's PINK! OP: tiny voice I prefer a chocolate icecream. Me: Oookaay .. no prob You: The chocolate icecream sucks, I don't like chocolate. The OP should get the strawberry icecream. Me: blinks You: Strawberry icrecream is superior because of yadda yadda yadda. Me: Uh uh ... but you're missing something. You: No, I tell you strawberry is the only way to go .... yadda yadda yadda. Me: Look buddy, do you have a medical issue? Have you taken your medications?


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