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Telvani
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
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Posted - 2011.05.26 16:41:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Bleck Mether So the general consensus here is that as things stand, if you're a sub-cap pilot, then from a PvP perspective low and null sec space is a pointless waste of time. Oh ok then, I'll stay in high sec some more...
If I were in charge at CCP I'd be sorely tempted to just press the delete button on super caps.
Sadly even this is not true, even as a carrier pilot you are truly ineffective compared SCs, sure SCs need to be better than carriers but at the moment they trivialise carriers completely.
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Shiera Kuni
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.05.26 16:46:00 -
[92]
Super Dread with the power to implode other capitals but with tracking so bad it couldn't hit anything else?
I kid, I kid, but I fully expect someone to take it seriously. . My Trollifier is fully loaded with Flamepedos and ready to bring down your Failageddon. My cloak of internet anonymity is perfect, the win is mine. |
Miagi Sans
Amarr PURgE-Corp PURgE Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.26 16:51:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Miagi Sans on 26/05/2011 16:51:41 thats not actually a bad idea.
Give Dred's bonuses to supercaps and make them pos/supercap killers.
Make Carriers into dred killers
Make supercaps into fleet and carrier killers (giving them a bit more power cause of the super in name )
everything is nice and balanced in the capital world now and you have a role for all capital ships
Leave titan's as is.
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Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
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Posted - 2011.05.26 17:15:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 25/05/2011 20:21:02
Originally by: Dalek Commander Edited by: Dalek Commander on 25/05/2011 20:01:24 Lets put this is perspective.
Super Carrier Cost: Hull - 11b Modules - 4-8bil (sometimes more) Implants - 2-3bil
So on average 1 super carrier is 20billion in assets. This isn't even adding in the cost of the fighters, bombers, drones, fuel and even spare ships they have on board.
Skills The Pilot needs to spend another 2+ bill on skills, and not to mention the 9 months of training to properly fit the carrier, and deploy the bombers.
You think something that has taken that much effort should be nerfed because they are better then 99% of the the rest of the ships in Eve (except Titans)??? It's working as intended so either step up and own one of your own, or keep on posting jealous emo rage posts like these.
Hello MR expensive state of the art Military Attack Helicopter, meet cheap throw away stinger missile. Get the picture?
Just because you have expensive toys, does not mean they are invulnerable.. The US taught this lesson to Russia in Afghanistan years ago and now the US is relearning same lesson in the same place.
Point being, in all wars high end technology has had it's place on the battlefield, yet in all wars lower tech solutions have managed to come up with effective counters.
IE.. Just because you spend a lot and have a lot of training, it will not make you invulnerable. The problem being in EVE, it's pretty much next to impossible to use a lower tech solution against the SC's because if you don't have a SC blob to kill them they will just log off prior to it's destruction.
Meaning the the pilot either has to have unheard of "space honor" for GF's or is really freaking dumb, to lose his SC to anything but another blob of SC's especially in low sec. Thus making them invulnerable to anything other than.. "you guessed it" another SC gang.
fix to bolded problem is easy, don't despawn tackled stuff.
Don't be Zippy. |
Syndryna
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Posted - 2011.05.26 18:21:00 -
[95]
Possible suggestions (wholly off the top of my head so not thought out entirely).
1. Only certain ships can fit cynos. Make those ships expensive but only can achieve moderate tank at best. Less hotdropping all over the place? 2. EWAR destroyer that specifically jams fighter "bandwidth". Again expensive but only can field a moderate tank but can shut down a SCs control over it's fighters. Make the SC (or C) have a recalibration time to reestablish fighter control. Like a reboot time. 3. A SB with bombs designed for cap sized ships (sucks against BS and lower). Can warp cloaked but once uncloaked it's sig might as well be a Titan.
Thoughts?
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Bustin Jieber
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Posted - 2011.05.26 19:10:00 -
[96]
lol @ the PL damage control team in here defending supercaps.
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m3rr
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Posted - 2011.05.27 06:54:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Bustin Jieber lol @ the PL damage control team in here defending supercaps.
Well everyone knows that PL wouldn't be **** without supercaps :V
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San Severina
Minmatar Autocannons Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.05.27 07:27:00 -
[98]
No prizes for guessing who the SC pilots are in this thread.
Standard whine (paraphrased) "Oh I hadda grind ISK for years and train for 9 months & spend billions just on my pod, why shouldn't I have a WTF Pwnmobile, invulnerable to anything but another SC? "
Seriously, some of you 'players' need to take a good look at yourselves & ask just what is it you want from this game. Because if it's the ability to stomp all over everybody else because you have access to a grossly OP ship & you think that's fair and reasonable & you come to these forums seriously arguing that Super Caps are fine, then imho you have some serious issues that probably affect your RL beyond EvE.
Take this opportunity to do a bit of introspective self analysis, maybe you could benefit on a personal growth level from this CCP Internet Spaceships mistake that is supercapitals.
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Ioci
Gallente Morrigna Order
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Posted - 2011.05.27 07:55:00 -
[99]
An unpackaged Domi has 18,321 Hitpoints. A Cyclops Fighter Bomber has 20,000
Put a Large Drone Dura enhancer 2 on the Nyx, add Drone Dura 5, Gal Carrier 5 and thats a 30K HP X 20
When you see a Nyx, dock up and log out.
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Marshiro
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Posted - 2011.05.27 08:44:00 -
[100]
Quote: Hello MR expensive state of the art Military Attack Helicopter, meet cheap throw away stinger missile. Get the picture?
Just because you have expensive toys, does not mean they are invulnerable.. The US taught this lesson to Russia in Afghanistan years ago and now the US is relearning same lesson in the same place.
Point being, in all wars high end technology has had it's place on the battlefield, yet in all wars lower tech solutions have managed to come up with effective counters.
I for one, awaits for the first carrier kill from guys swimming up to the carrier and poking it with spears, a lot.
Modern weapons are all glass cannons, but really, there is no defense against nuclear weapons that reduces you down to individual atoms. The only reason why the US and Russia was impeded was because they are not interested in extermination.
If we brought that risk reward system into Eve, enjoy having everything flattened in 5 minutes by a bored dude.....
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Enu Zembasi
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Posted - 2011.05.27 08:49:00 -
[101]
Maybe a flak ship would help. Something like 50% more damage per level to drones + some guns that are super effective against drones, but weak against anything else. This way super couldn't send his drones into gang, that is having a few flaks - unless someone will help him and deal with those.
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Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
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Posted - 2011.05.27 15:20:00 -
[102]
you could provoke the SC pilot to make RL threaths and get him banned. Don't even need a frig for that. |
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.05.27 18:30:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Mutnin on 27/05/2011 18:31:29
Originally by: Marshiro
I for one, awaits for the first carrier kill from guys swimming up to the carrier and poking it with spears, a lot.
Modern weapons are all glass cannons, but really, there is no defense against nuclear weapons that reduces you down to individual atoms. The only reason why the US and Russia was impeded was because they are not interested in extermination.
If we brought that risk reward system into Eve, enjoy having everything flattened in 5 minutes by a bored dude.....
I suppose you forgot about the bombing of the USS Cole? While not a carrier, I'm pretty sure the same tactic could have been just as effective on a carrier if they had the chance.
Now looking at your example of RL carrier vs in game carrier and we see one major difference.. RL carriers don't solo pwn stuff they travel with a fleet of escorts. Meaning if SC's are not working as intended when you judge by RL military examples, because SC's no longer need conventional fleets for back up/protection.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.27 18:37:00 -
[104]
Main difference with IRL: In eve you have one ship per person, since money isnt a large issue for many (partly due to large scaling botting), you want to maximise your effectiveness: many large ships.
IRL it might be more effective to have 20 supercarriers instead of 1 supercarrier + 19 escort. But not only is it more expensive, it also requires way more manpower. In eve if you got enough money there is no reason not to bring supercarriers, since it simply is the most effective use of manpower. IRL that isnt the case.
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Sino Sarn
Sick Tight Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.05.27 19:12:00 -
[105]
Clearly CCP intended 150man supercap only fleets to make EVE more fun amirite?
This is why I don't get CCP making changes to 0.0 in the hope of 'encouraging conflict' or 'enabling smaller scall PVP in 0.0'....they can make all the changes they can think of and none of it will matter until the nerf supers.
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.05.27 20:43:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Furb Killer Main difference with IRL: In eve you have one ship per person, since money isnt a large issue for many (partly due to large scaling botting), you want to maximise your effectiveness: many large ships.
IRL it might be more effective to have 20 supercarriers instead of 1 supercarrier + 19 escort. But not only is it more expensive, it also requires way more manpower. In eve if you got enough money there is no reason not to bring supercarriers, since it simply is the most effective use of manpower. IRL that isnt the case.
The point was not about the man power or costs, but rather the capabilities of that ship. The fact that it really needs no supporting fleet to assist it.
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Jaxemont
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Posted - 2011.05.27 21:33:00 -
[107]
It seems that everyone and their mother is starting to be able to afford SCs. I don't mind them being powerful, but the concept that some people hotdrop a bunch of them onto 1 or 2 ships, just for the lulz, is silly. What needs to be introduced is some form of upkeep. These are massive machines of war; they need to be maintained.
I think SCs would look quite a bit different if it cost about 100 mil ISK* per jump in fuel costs. (No, I'm not trolling). People would think twice about commiting the ship to a small battle. This seems like a lot at first, but if you consider that some alliances are building 100 SCs per month, then that cost is miniscule to them. Plus, this would add another much needed isk sink for CCP. Like many have said, it's not hard to come up with the initial investment of a SC. But how many will be willing to continue the rolling costs? Would it be worth it to them? If no: good, less SCs. If yes: good, more isk sinks.
This will also make alliance warfare much more damaging on corp wallets. Want to jump in 100 SCs? It will cost you 10 bn ISK. Don't like the cost? Jump in less SCs, or fly something else. The SC's great power should come at a much more considerable cost.
I guess they'd still be powerful against sub-caps, but the knowledge that they blew 100 mil just to reach the battlefield should balance that out a little?
*Just a number to put out, it can be higher/lower, and would have to scale for different cap ships.
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.05.27 22:19:00 -
[108]
I'm sure idea this is all kinds of dumb and flawed, but ... that's never stopped anyone from posting:
Anyway, running with the counter-super platform for us non-supercap-having plebes idea ... Supercapitals have no peers in the ~12,000m sig radius club. Introduce a torp/gun with an 12km explosion radius/sigres and it will be useless vs. anything BUT supercaps (e.g Battleship, 400m/12000m + speed vs. tracking (or exp.vel) = negligible). Allow it to be fit to a dedicated ship, much like bomb launchers on SBs. Give it sufficient dps that if DumbBadGuy jumps his Nyx onto a bait carrier without having scouted the neighboring systems (with, say, a support fleet or at least some alts keeping eyes) and doesn't realize BaitDude's buddies are in 25 anti-super-whatevership are sitting on the gate in a neighboring system ready to ruin his whole day for being reckless ... that would be nifty neat. In theory.
Actually, tweak signature radius on everything. Adjust POSmod-, cap- and sov-related stuff's sig radii so damage can scale proportionately to their counters (e.g. POSmods scaled to a sig radius suitable for a dread's guns but waaaay too tiny for bombers, whereas the dreads themselves are in a bomber's exp.radius sweetspot, etc.).
Also, ditch the concept of siege mode already. If you're afraid that by dreads not being pinned down for 10 minutes to do the one and only useful thing that dreads do that they'll jump out before the supercap lands on grid to kill it, that's what coordinating with hictors/dictors and general rabble support fleet is for.
Or something.
/care |
Speaker4 theDead
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Posted - 2011.05.28 05:03:00 -
[109]
lol, everyone seems to want to nerf nerf nerf, except when it's their ship....why not do the simple thing, buff dreads, cut siege cycle in half, higher dps against supers.... If 4 to 5 strong dreads can take out a super, the game becomes rebalanced, supers will be more careful about casual dropping, dreads actually become useful again.
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Ioci
Gallente Morrigna Order
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Posted - 2011.05.28 05:31:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead lol, everyone seems to want to nerf nerf nerf, except when it's their ship....why not do the simple thing, buff dreads, cut siege cycle in half, higher dps against supers.... If 4 to 5 strong dreads can take out a super, the game becomes rebalanced, supers will be more careful about casual dropping, dreads actually become useful again.
I don't feel the Super Carrier should be nerfed. I think Fighter Bombers should be but the SC itself, as long as it's an undockable coffin like the Titan, they should be formidable and deadly in thier own right. TBH most SC pilots use thier SC for what it's meant to be used for.
I will go one step further and make the flat out accusation. This is all the product of bad behaviour from Pandemic Legion and Pandemic Legion alone. They dont have Sov over a single system they hot dropped the defence of, they didnt want it. They were nerfed out of bridge blobbing and now they are griefing the systems they are anchored to. The problem is, there is no mechanic to kick thier ass and make them pay for poor sportsmanship. |
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Jack Tronic
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Posted - 2011.05.28 05:37:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Ioci
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead lol, everyone seems to want to nerf nerf nerf, except when it's their ship....why not do the simple thing, buff dreads, cut siege cycle in half, higher dps against supers.... If 4 to 5 strong dreads can take out a super, the game becomes rebalanced, supers will be more careful about casual dropping, dreads actually become useful again.
I don't feel the Super Carrier should be nerfed. I think Fighter Bombers should be but the SC itself, as long as it's an undockable coffin like the Titan, they should be formidable and deadly in thier own right. TBH most SC pilots use thier SC for what it's meant to be used for.
I will go one step further and make the flat out accusation. This is all the product of bad behaviour from Pandemic Legion and Pandemic Legion alone. They dont have Sov over a single system they hot dropped the defence of, they didnt want it. They were nerfed out of bridge blobbing and now they are griefing the systems they are anchored to. The problem is, there is no mechanic to kick thier ass and make them pay for poor sportsmanship.
Let me go get you screenshots from DRF AND PL now actively gate camping with 30+ titans and moms, in some cases entire cases for 10 systems are camped.
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.05.28 06:42:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Mutnin on 28/05/2011 06:44:57
Originally by: Ioci
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead lol, everyone seems to want to nerf nerf nerf, except when it's their ship....why not do the simple thing, buff dreads, cut siege cycle in half, higher dps against supers.... If 4 to 5 strong dreads can take out a super, the game becomes rebalanced, supers will be more careful about casual dropping, dreads actually become useful again.
I don't feel the Super Carrier should be nerfed. I think Fighter Bombers should be but the SC itself, as long as it's an undockable coffin like the Titan, they should be formidable and deadly in thier own right. TBH most SC pilots use thier SC for what it's meant to be used for.
I will go one step further and make the flat out accusation. This is all the product of bad behaviour from Pandemic Legion and Pandemic Legion alone. They dont have Sov over a single system they hot dropped the defence of, they didnt want it. They were nerfed out of bridge blobbing and now they are griefing the systems they are anchored to. The problem is, there is no mechanic to kick thier ass and make them pay for poor sportsmanship.
While yes it was PL in both instances I saw they are just the current FoTM ***gots. If it wasn't PL all the groupies would be flocking to what ever other group that was the newest FoTM Alliance.
Meaning as long as the ships are capable of doing what they are doing with as little risk as they currently have, people will continue to do it regards if they are in the current FoTM fan boy club or the next.
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Morgana Invictus
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Posted - 2011.05.28 07:05:00 -
[113]
Having not been in 0.0 I have to ask, weren't bombs and stealth bombers created to deal with blobs? Just make an anti-cap/SC bomb that barely hurts anything under carrier/dread.
Why wouldn't that work?
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.05.28 17:47:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Mutnin on 28/05/2011 17:47:56
Originally by: Morgana Invictus Having not been in 0.0 I have to ask, weren't bombs and stealth bombers created to deal with blobs? Just make an anti-cap/SC bomb that barely hurts anything under carrier/dread.
Why wouldn't that work?
Because it would do nothing to cure the problems with SC's in low sec, because bombs can't be launched there.
The other problem, is making specific ships/items to counter other specific ships, tends to throw things out of balance. Creating a class of ships just to destroy SC's would likely make SC's just as useless as normal carrier or conventional fleets are becoming as of today.
Example is SC's were changed to make them into anti-cap ships and now they have pretty much eliminated the usage of cap ship of any other kind other than ones used to support the SC gangs. Added to this the SC's are very good at killing conventional fleets, so it really becomes he who has the most SC's wins EVE.
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Miso Hawnee
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Posted - 2011.05.28 18:26:00 -
[115]
Originally by: m3rr
Originally by: Bustin Jieber lol @ the PL damage control team in here defending supercaps.
Well everyone knows that PL wouldn't be **** without supercaps :V
You forgot to mention metagaming. They are **** when they aren't FCing the fleet they are fighting.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.28 18:35:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/05/2011 18:35:03
Originally by: Ioci
I will go one step further and make the flat out accusation. This is all the product of bad behaviour from Pandemic Legion and Pandemic Legion alone. They dont have Sov over a single system they hot dropped the defence of, they didnt want it. They were nerfed out of bridge blobbing and now they are griefing the systems they are anchored to. The problem is, there is no mechanic to kick thier ass and make them pay for poor sportsmanship.
I've been hot dropped by NC Supercaps in low sec. Care to revise your statement? -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Kyle Brooks
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Posted - 2011.05.28 18:44:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Kyle Brooks on 28/05/2011 18:52:08 Super carriers cost 20 billion ISK. 3 billion more for slaves and other implants.
They entomb the pilot, or cost 5 billion more for a holding char that can't even online mods.
They can't dock.
They cost the same as 100-150 battleships.
They SHOULD BE STRONG.
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Jacque Cruix
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Posted - 2011.05.28 19:00:00 -
[118]
Maybe make it so it costs 100+mil isk per light year to jump a SC or Titan, at JFC V. Maybe then a lot of these silly hot drops will go away.
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Jewanna
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Posted - 2011.05.28 19:04:00 -
[119]
Is this really all about low sec pirates angry that they can't wtfpwn transport ships without any counter? Sorry but 300 million worth of BC and BS should die to 100 billion of caps.
Lol you guys crack me up.
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Jacque Cruix
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Posted - 2011.05.28 19:08:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Jewanna Is this really all about low sec pirates angry that they can't wtfpwn transport ships without any counter? Sorry but 300 million worth of BC and BS should die to 100 billion of caps.
Lol you guys crack me up.
And it should cost 600mil, 900mil, or 1.2bil for those supercaps to take out those 300mil in ships. Remeber, they're not supposed to be efficient.
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