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Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.13 07:35:00 - [1] Let's assume Eve tries to cater to all kinds of playstyles and that every distinct environment there is (hi-, lo-, nulsec and wspace), is made to attract and support (some) of those playstyles. This would mean, that each of those environments would serve as a habitat with a unique equilibrium between the competing habitants and their playstyles. What does this mean? Imho it means that for example the hisec-habitat does cater to a handfull of playstyles. There are griefers, scammers, traders, mission runners, miners, arena-style pvpers, noobs, etc. pp. Similar categories can be made up for the other habitats. Now, if you're someone who likes to fly capitals and who wants to see a flag of his group on the map, then high sec isn't for you. The same is true for people who want to shoot other people in the face (or being shot at) without intervention by some NPC. The question(s) that stem(s) from this in regards to losec is/are this: What kind of player does losec currently attract and cater to? Is the size of the habitat appropriate to cater to this group? Could the habitat be redesigned to keep the current group(s) it caters to and still attract other groups? Is this habitat needed at all to cater to this group or should the habitat better cater to some other group that is bigger or deemed more valuable as a playstyle for Eve? Is there any group/playstyle in Eve that hasn't got an appropriate habitat yet? taken from here: Gate camping is unfair - Please make it stop Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.05.13 08:01:00 - [2] Originally by: Tres Farmer Let's assume Eve tries to cater to all kinds of playstyles It doesn't.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.13 08:13:00 - [3] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Tres Farmer Let's assume Eve tries to cater to all kinds of playstyles It doesn't. better? In case you care: I didn't meant 'all kinds of' in the sense of 'all playstyles there are in the MMORPG-world', I wanted this to be understand as 'all playstyles which are possible in Eve'. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.05.13 08:23:00 - [4] Originally by: Tres Farmer In case you care: I didn't meant 'all kinds of' in the sense of 'all playstyles there are in the MMORPG-world', I wanted this to be understand as 'all playstyles which are possible in Eve'. running a farm of macro miners is a playstyle that is possible in Eve but that CCP tries not to cater to.
bartos100 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.05.13 08:35:00 - [5] there is 1 playstyle that is not supported the nomadic style flying thru space without the need for a station or POS only works until you run out of ammo or until you have to repair some damage and you don't have a repair mod fitted :(
Lost Greybeard	Posted - 2011.05.13 08:42:00 - [6] Edited by: Lost Greybeard on 13/05/2011 08:44:00 Lowsec and NPC 0.0 are the place to go to get into fights at random and generally horse around for fun. They're the "dangerous" areas of the game, balanced by the low-danger areas of Sov 0.0 and High-sec where it takes forever to get to you and Concord protects you respectively. Viewed as the equivalent of W:AR's PVP-allowed central zones, you get a better feel for what low is supposed to be... not particularly a permanent residence, but somewhere you spend more and more of your time as you get more straight-up bloodthirsty and less interested in the drama of guilds on one end and people exploiting technicalities in the rules to make PvP frustrating at the other. (Not that it's not possible to live in lowsec or NPC 0.0, it's just harder since they're not really built with the safety of a permanent base in mind.) Short version phrased as answers to your questions: - Brawlers - Yes. (The idea is to have the distance between scraps be low) - Maybe, but what kind of wuss would want that? - Complete care-bears that want to be untouchable even if their enemy is willing to run 30 guarded gates to get to them. (EDIT: Bartos, maybe fly Amarr with a high-slot repper for your drones and an armor repairer? Then you only have to return to base if you actually screw up.) --- If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.05.13 08:42:00 - [7] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 13/05/2011 08:43:03 Originally by: Tres Farmer The question(s) that stem(s) from this in regards to losec is/are this: What kind of player does losec currently attract and cater to? Is the size of the habitat appropriate to cater to this group? Could the habitat be redesigned to keep the current group(s) it caters to and still attract other groups? Is this habitat needed at all to cater to this group or should the habitat better cater to some other group that is bigger or deemed more valuable as a playstyle for Eve? Is there any group/playstyle in Eve that hasn't got an appropriate habitat yet? Well obviously most environments make it very difficult to be self sufficient. I always wondered why people had to visit Jita all the time, even the bigger nulsec alliances. I find it rather unrealistic that with so many moons and planets at your disposal you still can't be self sufficient. While IRL we can do with just one planet. Lowsec needs a lot of attention (CCP reconfirmed this is their answers thread). The usual people I meet there are people that do PI or have a reaction POS. An occasional gate camper. Usually there's not even 10 people in local. The fact that you're getting an extra sec hit (compared to for instance NPC nulsec PvP) makes it unattractive for PvPers. The fact that your rewards hardly increase for five hundred times the risk makes int unattractive for most mission runners. There's no such thing as support for a playstyle as there's always a need to get stuff from other environments. This is mainly due to the fact that T2 manufacturing is so incredibly complex.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.13 08:51:00 - [8] Originally by: bartos100 there is 1 playstyle that is not supported the nomadic style flying thru space without the need for a station or POS only works until you run out of ammo or until you have to repair some damage and you don't have a repair mod fitted :( Fit a repair mod then and shoot only stuff you know that drops ammo, or better yet rely on weapons (if you're of the martial-nomadic-kind) that doesn't need ammo? Joking aside, why would you want this playstyle to be catered for in losec (only)? Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
The Old Chap	Posted - 2011.05.13 09:17:00 - [9] Jousting or duelling. Would be nice to be able to challenge another player to a one-on-one duel, without the risk of being ganked by his gangmates. Also some kind of in-game flag to signal that you're up for a duel. Maybe have jousting/duelling arenas for a fights to the shipdeath, where fleet and concord mechanics are disabled (except for podkills), and other players can observe but with weps disabled.
Scarlet des Loupes Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2011.05.13 09:20:00 - [10] Originally by: The Old Chap Jousting or duelling. Would be nice to be able to challenge another player to a one-on-one duel, without the risk of being ganked by his gangmates. Also some kind of in-game flag to signal that you're up for a duel. Maybe have jousting/duelling arenas for a fights to the shipdeath, where fleet and concord mechanics are disabled (except for podkills), and other players can observe but with weps disabled. I would love this.

Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.13 09:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Tres Farmer The question(s) that stem(s) from this in regards to losec is/are this: What kind of player does losec currently attract and cater to? Is the size of the habitat appropriate to cater to this group? Could the habitat be redesigned to keep the current group(s) it caters to and still attract other groups? Is this habitat needed at all to cater to this group or should the habitat better cater to some other group that is bigger or deemed more valuable as a playstyle for Eve? Is there any group/playstyle in Eve that hasn't got an appropriate habitat yet? snip Lowsec needs a lot of attention (CCP reconfirmed this in their answers thread). The usual people I meet there are people that do PI or have a reaction POS. An occasional gate camper. Usually there's not even 10 people in local. Why would you want more people in losec, as you point out the low headcount in local as metric? Or if that's a misunderstanding why do you think losec needs a lot of attention? Because of the following?.. Originally by: Jennifer Starling The fact that you're getting an extra sec hit (compared to for instance NPC nulsec PvP) makes it unattractive for PvPers. The fact that your rewards hardly increase for five hundred times the risk makes it unattractive for most mission runners. snap Ok, those are some of the reasons why losec doesn't cater to most mission runners or pvp'ers. Though one could argue that mission runners (if they're mostly interested in running missions) already have their habitat: hisec. Why would you want them in losec? Similar arguments can be made for those sec-hit-avoiding pvp'ers. They can shoot others in nulsec or wspace without the stigma of being hit with a sec loss. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Long John Silver	Posted - 2011.05.13 09:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Scarlet des Loupes Originally by: The Old Chap Jousting or duelling. Would be nice to be able to challenge another player to a one-on-one duel, without the risk of being ganked by his gangmates. Also some kind of in-game flag to signal that you're up for a duel. Maybe have jousting/duelling arenas for a fights to the shipdeath, where fleet and concord mechanics are disabled (except for podkills), and other players can observe but with weps disabled. I would love this. Me too. Winner takes all!
Daniela Darr	Posted - 2011.05.13 09:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Tres Farmer Ok, those are some of the reasons why losec doesn't cater to most mission runners or pvp'ers. Though one could argue that mission runners (if they're mostly interested in running missions) already have their habitat: hisec. Why would you want them in losec? Similar arguments can be made for those sec-hit-avoiding pvp'ers. They can shoot others in nulsec or wspace without the stigma of being hit with a sec loss. Well we can argue that lowsec has no use at all as either high- or nulsec does the same but better!! If there's agents in lowsec it's obviously done to cater mission runners? I can't think of another reason tbh ..
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.13 09:44:00 - [14] Originally by: Daniela Darr Originally by: Tres Farmer Ok, those are some of the reasons why losec doesn't cater to most mission runners or pvp'ers. Though one could argue that mission runners (if they're mostly interested in running missions) already have their habitat: hisec. Why would you want them in losec? Similar arguments can be made for those sec-hit-avoiding pvp'ers. They can shoot others in nulsec or wspace without the stigma of being hit with a sec loss. Well we can argue that lowsec has no use at all as either high- or nulsec does the same but better!! If that's the outcome of this discussion it's ok with me. The interesting question then is, does New Eden really need losec after all or should we just split it up between high/nulsec and be done with it? Originally by: Daniela Darr If there's agents in lowsec it's obviously done to cater mission runners? I can't think of another reason tbh .. There are roids too Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
bartos100 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.05.13 10:02:00 - [15] yea t1 crystals for lasers go a long way but it's when you do screw up and get hit in hull that a real nomad would get to a 'safe' location and start repairing the damage with materials he has on board and if you are several jumps into W-space a way to a station might be a long way off or if you overheat something and run out of nanite paste :( and the ability to change mod's in space (if you have the mod with you) would be very useful but be limited (5 min timer or so ) so it is of no use during a fight but only when you are 'safe'
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.05.13 12:52:00 - [16] From my experience inhabitants of lowsec generally: - value individual freedom over everything else - prefer smallish gangs and conflicts to territorial big scale struggles - for many of us despite lowsec's obvious shortcomings it is the prime place for small gang pvp - like the relative ease of travel in lowsec - some like to RP the pirate type at least a little Living in lowsec is completely different from living in nullsec. Nullsec seems to be about building empires and infrastructure and whatnot. That collides with high individual freedom. Lowsec dwellers generally don't like CTA's or having to gather a 20+ fleet to do much of anything. Owning something isn't what makes us tick. Saying something akin to "but you can shoot people there TOO" is simply a display of ignorance. Now I realize that's simply speaking for myself and my mates and not necessarily for everyone in lowsec but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have similar feelings. Most lowsec-dwellers I know have lived everywhere in eve from hi to null. I think it is somewhat arrogant to presume that they couldn't tell for themselves if lowsec is a better habitat for them than other options. That's why they live there. Your questions look very biased to me. I realize that many people would like to see lowsec gone and instead turned into something more beneficial to them. And that's really whats up when you say things like "should the habitat better cater to some other group that is bigger or deemed more valuable as a playstyle for Eve". I mean really? This is eve and now you're gonna start telling people whats the prefered playstyle? And maybe we should (just to pretend we're all open ended) first ask how or why any of those other habitats really need to grow at the expense of lowsec. (Answer: They don't.) Oh and btw. lowsec is already the smallest of all habitats and a considerable part specifically caters to fw. But whatever like all "fix lowsec" threads this one will be useless and I'm not even sure why I bothered to post. Somewhere in ccp there is a pirate who knows that lowsec offers a lifestyle that's not supported anywhere else. As long as that guy is in place I and people like me have nothing to worry about. Plus resources for lowsec can't realistically be freed until 2014 in the very least going from the recent dev-answer thread. So happy campaigning until then! -- Originally by: CCP Elais It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.13 13:01:00 - [17] Originally by: bartos100 there is 1 playstyle that is not supported the nomadic style flying thru space without the need for a station or POS only works until you run out of ammo or until you have to repair some damage and you don't have a repair mod fitted :( Awww man, try harder! I spent a week flying a Lazor Ferox without docking, for some dumbass RP I thought was fun at the time. Need reps? Buy or barter. Collect junk and try to sell without using the normal means :P You can do it, it just takes creativity.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.13 14:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Myra2007 From my experience inhabitants of lowsec generally: - value individual freedom over everything else - prefer smallish gangs and conflicts to territorial big scale struggles - for many of us despite lowsec's obvious shortcomings it is the prime place for small gang pvp - like the relative ease of travel in lowsec - some like to RP the pirate type at least a little Living in lowsec is completely different from living in nullsec. Nullsec seems to be about building empires and infrastructure and whatnot. That collides with high individual freedom. Lowsec dwellers generally don't like CTA's or having to gather a 20+ fleet to do much of anything. Owning something isn't what makes us tick. Saying something akin to "but you can shoot people there TOO" is simply a display of ignorance. Read that part of post #11 again. There I ask Jennifer (provocatively) why the group of 'security-hit-avoiding-pvp'er' should be catered in losec too (which would need changes to gamemechanics), while they can already shoot in nulsec/wspace without getting a sec-hit. Originally by: Myra2007 Now I realize that's simply speaking for myself and my mates and not necessarily for everyone in lowsec but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have similar feelings. Most lowsec-dwellers I know have lived everywhere in eve from hi to null. I think it is somewhat arrogant to presume that they couldn't tell for themselves if lowsec is a better habitat for them than other options. That's why they live there. Your questions look very biased to me. I realize that many people would like to see lowsec gone and instead turned into something more beneficial to them. And that's really whats up when you say things like "should the habitat better cater to some other group that is bigger or deemed more valuable as a playstyle for Eve". I mean really? This is eve and now you're gonna start telling people whats the prefered playstyle? Well, gamedesign will have to ask this question, no? Or what do you think they do in their meetings when they decide what kind of mechanics get changed/added/removed and who/where/when/how benefits/loses? Also, please show me where in the OP or else I said that small gang pvp is the (main) group that is currently being attracted and catered by losec and has to make way for another group? You implied that. Maybe I was more thinking of gatecampers or hot-drop-blobbers or mission-runners-in-unprobeable-T3s? Originally by: Myra2007 snip But whatever like all "fix lowsec" threads this one will be useless and I'm not even sure why I bothered to post. Somewhere in ccp there is a pirate who knows that lowsec offers a lifestyle that's not supported anywhere else. As long as that guy is in place I and people like me have nothing to worry about. Plus resources for lowsec can't realistically be freed until 2014 in the very least going from the recent dev-answer thread. So happy campaigning until then! I'm thankful for your constructive post. And, no I'm not campaining for the removal (or whatever you think) of losec.. far from it. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Morganta	Posted - 2011.05.13 15:01:00 - [19] empire = carebears, macros, station games low-sec = carebears, macros, station games, small gang gatecamps null = station games, small gangs avoiding blobs, blobs, hotdrops, ratting for sec
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.13 15:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Morganta()* empire = carebears, macros, station games low-sec = carebears, macros, station games, small gang gatecamps null = carebaers, macros, station games, small gangs avoiding blobs, blobs, hotdrops, ratting for sec fixed it btw, losec is part of empire space.. jfyi Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!

Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.13 16:20:00 - [21] Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Morganta()* empire = carebears, macros, station games low-sec = carebears, macros, station games, small gang gatecamps null = carebaers, macros, station games, small gangs avoiding blobs, blobs, hotdrops, ratting for sec fixed it Not very well
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.13 16:34:00 - [22] Originally by: Lady Go Diveher Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Morganta()* empire = carebears, macros, station games low-sec = carebears, macros, station games, small gang gatecamps null = carebaers, macros, station games, small gangs avoiding blobs, blobs, hotdrops, ratting for sec fixed it Not very well Hey, I'm human.. we do ma-ma-ma-maaake mistakes, ya kn-kn-kn-kn-knoowww Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Merdaneth Amarr Defensores Fidei Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.13 16:48:00 - [23] Edited by: Merdaneth on 13/05/2011 16:50:44 There is no niche for bounty hunters (think Boba Fett from Star Wars) or 'good guys' space police/anti-pirate outfits. The game mechanics make such niches not viable. There is also no real niche for the smuggler (think Han Solo from Star Wars) or the lone captain surviving on his wits alone beyond the civilized territories (think Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly). Again, game mechanics make both niches impossible. There is no niche for the scientist or the tinkerer. There is nothing to invent, nothing unique to be made, everything is pre-programmed and the best one can do is increase efficiency in one's process, and very limited room for creativity. There is no niche for the builder. The one that desires to plan and build their own cities in space. The POS system is very limited and very frustrating to any would be builder, it doesn't allow for creativity and is swamped with timers and all kinds of stuff only useful for PvP (player vs. POS warfare) I think all these niches are popular stereotypes and things players would want to play in a SF space-game. However, systems like bounty hunting add to the long and distinguished list of CCP ideas that have been abandoned. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.13 16:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Merdaneth There is no niche for [....] 'good guys' space police/anti-pirate outfits. The game mechanics make such niches not viable. I think you've never encountered a Spruillo post?
Tza Omi	Posted - 2011.05.13 20:04:00 - [25] Edited by: Tza Omi on 13/05/2011 20:04:10 Originally by: Daniela Darr Originally by: Tres Farmer Ok, those are some of the reasons why losec doesn't cater to most mission runners or pvp'ers. Though one could argue that mission runners (if they're mostly interested in running missions) already have their habitat: hisec. Why would you want them in losec? Similar arguments can be made for those sec-hit-avoiding pvp'ers. They can shoot others in nulsec or wspace without the stigma of being hit with a sec loss. Well we can argue that lowsec has no use at all as either high- or nulsec does the same but better!! If there's agents in lowsec it's obviously done to cater mission runners? I can't think of another reason tbh .. Actually I've heard that all the lvl 5 agents were moved to lo-sec to attempt to stimulate mission runners to risk their mission ships to lo-sec pirates who were whining they couldn't find a target.
Tza Omi	Posted - 2011.05.13 21:16:00 - [26] actually losec does have one very good use, you can bring carriers close to hisec to load things up in to take back out to null sec
Daniela Darr	Posted - 2011.05.13 21:18:00 - [27] Edited by: Daniela Darr on 13/05/2011 21:19:45 Originally by: Tza Omi Actually I've heard that all the lvl 5 agents were moved to lo-sec to attempt to stimulate mission runners to risk their mission ships to lo-sec pirates who were whining they couldn't find a target. You mean unprobable Tengus who and pirates that are still whining they couldn't find a target? Originally by: Tza Omi actually losec does have one very good use, you can bring carriers close to hisec to load things up in to take back out to null sec Not if lowsec was removed - highsec would border nulsec then. Consequence: leave highsec and you can immediately meet an interdictor gang.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.14 02:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Merdaneth There is no niche for bounty hunters (think Boba Fett from Star Wars) or 'good guys' space police/anti-pirate outfits. The game mechanics make such niches not viable. There is also no real niche for the smuggler (think Han Solo from Star Wars) or the lone captain surviving on his wits alone beyond the civilized territories (think Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly). Again, game mechanics make both niches impossible. snip For the above I can see why you would want to let them roam the losec habitat and why none of the other habitats would suit.. and yeah, bounty hunting is a stepchild of Eve. I hope CCP does look at it when they look at losec as a whole. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.05.14 02:24:00 - [29] One of the types of content EVE currently lacks is something that in other games would be raids. That is, small group encounters (small groups as in 10-40) against singular or a couple of strong NPC characters. Incursions are kind of a step in this direction. However the thing that makes raids in other games fun is they often have unique abilities and different strenghts and weaknesses. Incursions and all other PvE content in EVE which aims to be challenging does so only through taking your standard NPCs and buffing their damage, health or numbers. Solitary exception being perhaps the Maze complex. --- Originally by: Sporked EVE IS DYING RUN TO THE HILLS! WE MIGHT HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS MMO! THEY MIGHT SHOOT AT US WHILE WE ARE BUSY HOLDING HANDS AND FROLICKING! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Arazel Chainfire The Awakened Armada Infinite Conflux	Posted - 2011.05.14 02:41:00 - [30] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash One of the types of content EVE currently lacks is something that in other games would be raids. That is, small group encounters (small groups as in 10-40) against singular or a couple of strong NPC characters. Incursions are kind of a step in this direction. However the thing that makes raids in other games fun is they often have unique abilities and different strenghts and weaknesses. Incursions and all other PvE content in EVE which aims to be challenging does so only through taking your standard NPCs and buffing their damage, health or numbers. Solitary exception being perhaps the Maze complex. Just wait until incursions expand past sansha... you know its going to happen... Guristas incursions are going to be a ***** -Arazel



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