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Articulas Maximus
Minmatar notaxx
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Posted - 2011.05.06 14:41:00 -
[1]
Hey all,
Ive recently started training the last few bit to be able to fly a Claymore then il be geeting my leadership skills up to increase the fleet boosting but my questions are
1. Is there a more effective ship then the Claymore for this role?
2. Is there a reccomended ship setup to use?
3. Has anyone got any advice for this role in a fleet to be the most effective?
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Mona X
Caldari Missions Mining and Mayhem Merciless.
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Posted - 2011.05.06 14:48:00 -
[2]
Loki.
Join Eve-Online, meet interesting people, grief them. |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.05.06 15:17:00 -
[3]
Loki is a better command ship than the Claymore IF: You don't mind sitting in a safespot not getting any killmails. Your gang size (or just straight DPS output) is large enough that the 400 DPS the claymore spits out is irrelevant. Personally, no matter how much anyone asks me to, I wouldn't use the command Loki on my main. Sitting in a safespot while other people have exciting fleet battles sounds like the most unpleasant unfun turdlike kind of existence.
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Articulas Maximus
Minmatar notaxx
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Posted - 2011.05.06 15:36:00 -
[4]
Ah thought it would be abit more involved then that might have a career rethink
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.05.06 15:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mona X Loki.
well yes, if you have a spare alt and dozens of safespot bookmarks in every system your gang roams and you are the first to jump into the system so that you can setup your ganglinks in said safespots.
claymore doesn't suffer from that problem, altho it has a 3% bonus, compared to the loki's command sub' 5%. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Goose99
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Posted - 2011.05.06 16:07:00 -
[6]
Covops, unprobeable, bubble proof, t3 beats Claymore anytime, anywhere, if your main purpose is to boost fleet. If you want to ***** kms, you shouldn't be boosting.
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Fuazzole
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Posted - 2011.05.06 21:34:00 -
[7]
Remember the Rule, fly ISK level that is comprable with the rest of the fleet.
I used to Claymore for the Caldari FW, my 200mill set up was worth more then the rest of the fleet put together most of the time.
Make sure you are ready to commit to Leadership, you may be looking at 8 million skill points to justifie the role.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2011.05.06 21:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Fuazzole Remember the Rule, fly ISK level that is comprable with the rest of the fleet.
I used to Claymore for the Caldari FW, my 200mill set up was worth more then the rest of the fleet put together most of the time.
Make sure you are ready to commit to Leadership, you may be looking at 8 million skill points to justifie the role.
Never heard of any such rule, still don't understand it. Even if I go out in a fleet of myself the ships often varies by more than a few hundred magnitudes. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 279296
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.05.07 04:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Goose99 Covops, unprobeable, bubble proof, t3 beats Claymore anytime, anywhere, if your main purpose is to boost fleet. If you want to ***** kms, you shouldn't be boosting.
So do you enjoy sitting in a SS while the FC calls primaries? Or do you happen to have an alt you boost with?
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.05.07 04:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Originally by: Goose99 Covops, unprobeable, bubble proof, t3 beats Claymore anytime, anywhere, if your main purpose is to boost fleet. If you want to ***** kms, you shouldn't be boosting.
So do you enjoy sitting in a SS while the FC calls primaries? Or do you happen to have an alt you boost with?
So put booster alt in a t3 and your main in something useful. The fleet will end up with 1x good booster and 1x useful member instead of 2x crap/dead booster/dps boats in one.
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Laura Baretta
Minmatar Versatech Co. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.05.07 10:12:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Laura Baretta on 07/05/2011 10:13:20 Hey all, 1. Is there a more effective ship then the Claymore for this role?
In therms of pure boosting, the loki can be better. But only if you gimp the fit with 3 warfare links. Since you are asking for more EFFECTIVE tho, i would say no, because a claymore will be used in a fast moving nano gang. Wich means in most engagements there will be little or no time to set up a safespot for the Loki in order for it to start boosting before the engagement is over.
2. Is there a reccomended ship setup to use?
In roaming, fast moving gangs the claymore is clearly superior to the loki. It has a great buffer tank and start gangboosting immediately after jumping in, since it doesn't have to get safe.
3. Has anyone got any advice for this role in a fleet to be the most effective?
My only advice to you is that training Wing Command or Fleet Command to only 4 is a waste of time. bring them to 5 or don't train them at all. As soon as you get more squads or wings under your command than you can handle, NO ONE will get your bonuses at all.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.05.07 12:19:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Goose99
So put booster alt in a t3 and your main in something useful. The fleet will end up with 1x good booster and 1x useful member instead of 2x crap/dead booster/dps boats in one.
Now you're telling him to buy/start a 2cd account and train for loki. This noobie guy who doesn't seem quite sure how to fit a claymore.
Next time someone asks how to fit a mission ship are you going to tell them that the best way is to train an alt into a machariel and dual box? The next time someone asks about a solo lowsec fit are you going to tell them its only complete if they have a falcon alt on standby?
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.05.07 15:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Originally by: Goose99
So put booster alt in a t3 and your main in something useful. The fleet will end up with 1x good booster and 1x useful member instead of 2x crap/dead booster/dps boats in one.
Now you're telling him to buy/start a 2cd account and train for loki. This noobie guy who doesn't seem quite sure how to fit a claymore.
Next time someone asks how to fit a mission ship are you going to tell them that the best way is to train an alt into a machariel and dual box? The next time someone asks about a solo lowsec fit are you going to tell them its only complete if they have a falcon alt on standby?
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Originally by: Goose99 Covops, unprobeable, bubble proof, t3 beats Claymore anytime, anywhere, if your main purpose is to boost fleet. If you want to ***** kms, you shouldn't be boosting.
So do you enjoy sitting in a SS while the FC calls primaries? Or do you happen to have an alt you boost with?
You're the one suggesting 2 accounts with 2 gimped Claymores that give poor dps and will get primaried in a heartbeat. In order to fit a booster ship that actually boosts worth a damn, your boat is gimped. And soon, it will be dead, thus no longer boosting, unless your fleet is ganking a lone guy instead of engaging large symmetrical fleet. Specialized boat for maximum boost that stays out of fire and stays alive beats poor and soon dead booster.
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ValentinaDLM
Minmatar Zaratha Zarati Shaktipat Revelators
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Posted - 2011.05.07 17:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Goose99 Covops, unprobeable, bubble proof, t3 beats Claymore anytime, anywhere, if your main purpose is to boost fleet. If you want to ***** kms, you shouldn't be boosting.
On this at least, I agree. Sadly, people are so worried about what other might think of them, that they would rather do worse for their gang than not get on kill mails, I guess they really are afraid forum trolls might not take them seriously without lots of mails.
But yeah, if you want to fight I say use a slepnir, if you want to boost I say loki.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.05.07 17:41:00 -
[15]
No I'm the one suggesting that someone with one account who wants to be a command ship fly a Claymore. 1 Claymore. Because you know they have 1 account.
You're the one who's suggesting: (A) Sitting out on fleet fights OR (B) Buying a new account so you can dual box.
In response to (A) I can say that you should go sodomize yourself. People play EVE to have fun. Sitting out of fleet fights is not fun. (A) is like telling a noobie they should go stick their hand in a blender.
In response to (B) I am ridiculing your implied statement that someone needs multiple accounts to play the game. Sure they help. No they aren't necessary.
If you already have two accounts and you want to run a command ship the loki is your goto. If you don't the loki is a red herring.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.05.07 17:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ValentinaDLM Sadly, people are so worried about what other might think of them, that they would rather do worse for their gang than not get on kill mails, I guess they really are afraid forum trolls might not take them seriously without lots of mails.
So you're another guy who wants to sit out on fleet fights. Have you ever actually done that or are you just telling people to do it? Its not about ****ing killmails. Its about the only decent aspect of the game being the PVP. Voluntarily not taking part in the one thing thats actually enjoyable about eve is masochistic. Why play the game if you're a pvper who doesn't show up on the field?
Are you giving advice for risk averse carebears so that they can have a ship for CTAs and home defense fleets without risking exploding? WTF is this?
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.05.07 18:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita No I'm the one suggesting that someone with one account who wants to be a command ship fly a Claymore. 1 Claymore. Because you know they have 1 account.
You're the one who's suggesting: (A) Sitting out on fleet fights OR (B) Buying a new account so you can dual box.
In response to (A) I can say that you should go sodomize yourself. People play EVE to have fun. Sitting out of fleet fights is not fun. (A) is like telling a noobie they should go stick their hand in a blender.
In response to (B) I am ridiculing your implied statement that someone needs multiple accounts to play the game. Sure they help. No they aren't necessary.
If you already have two accounts and you want to run a command ship the loki is your goto. If you don't the loki is a red herring.
A)Sitting out on fleet fights and boost
or
B)Fight in fleet fights in a useful boat
Your option: C)Fight in fleet fights in a fail half booster half dps boat that's nerfed in both areas, gets primaried and popped by the blob in a heartbeat, leaving your buddies with no boost.
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Originally by: ValentinaDLM Sadly, people are so worried about what other might think of them, that they would rather do worse for their gang than not get on kill mails, I guess they really are afraid forum trolls might not take them seriously without lots of mails.
So you're another guy who wants to sit out on fleet fights. Have you ever actually done that or are you just telling people to do it? Its not about ****ing killmails. Its about the only decent aspect of the game being the PVP. Voluntarily not taking part in the one thing thats actually enjoyable about eve is masochistic. Why play the game if you're a pvper who doesn't show up on the field?
Are you giving advice for risk averse carebears so that they can have a ship for CTAs and home defense fleets without risking exploding? WTF is this?
If you're worried about whoring kms, fly a dps boat that blends into the blob and can actually put out damage. If you want to boost, then boost competently. Fleet boosters are about helping your buddies. Take one for the team.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.05.07 21:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Goose99 Your option: C)Fight in fleet fights in a fail half booster half dps boat that's nerfed in both areas, gets primaried and popped by the blob in a heartbeat, leaving your buddies with no boost.
A fleet command ship isn't fail. It's 3% bonus does the job adequately. Furthermore it doesn't require someone to take the time to SS up which can be valuable when an FC is rapidly moving the fleet.
In addition for the claymore "half DPS boat" translates into a bit less DPS than a vagabond. In a small nano gang thats actually useful. You have noticed all the minmatar vaga/cynabal/dramiel nano gangs wandering around right? The ones with 5 people that are just looking for ganks? Guess what they would rather have helping them.
Then lets talk about a 10 man brawling fleet. Lets say 3 logis, dictor, scout leaving us room for 5 utility/dps ships. 4 hurricanes and a claymore put out 2800 DPS. 4 hurricanes and a cloaky loki put out 2400 DPS. Thats a difference of 16%. In exchange for what? Less than an additional 10% bonus from the loki? Those hurricanes aren't going to be thinking "I hope they don't primary the claymore first," either.
In fact, in most small - medium gang settings, the command ships tend to be some of the toughest things on the field. EVEN IN A HELLCAT FLEET A 300K EHP Damnation isn't exactly a thin target. Given a choice most FCs will kill a tackled logi over a command ship. Only sometimes would killing the command ship be more useful than just wiping out a logi. An AB HAC Armored Claymore comes to mind. In a worse case scenario a command ship's native resists will allow the logis to just keep it alive when you have enough DPS to kill T1 ships with less buffer and resists.
I dont think the OP is about to join Burnt Eden, or PL, or start flying with Garmon. Those guys make good use of full out command T3s. But guess what. They have a crapton of alts they use for that kind of stuff.
If we go back to the 10 man brawling gang that claymore can also be tackling things. He and his buffer can be used for bait. He can contribute to the gang in multiple nontrivial ways beyond running bonuses.
But my major objection remains that playing eve by going to a safespot and afking until the FC needs you in a new system is BORING. Or in other words NOT A FUN WAY TO SPEND YOUR TIME PLAYING A GAME. I don't have never met anyone who was willing to do that thing on their main while not using an alt to fight. I believe you are hypocrites who use alts or just don't run those ships while asking other people to do so. Maybe you're just trolls trying to derail someone's training plan out into some direction thats pretty awful.
T3 COMMAND SHIPS ARE ALTMOBILES. Like the falcon used to be but more so.
Not every group trying to PVP has a b'unch of alts sitting around. Not every group trying to PVP is a sov blob that could instapop command ships with alpha strikes. Not every group trying to PVP can play like Zhoul or Burnt Eden running 11 klick 40km point faction pimped dramiels with sniper faction battleships. Regardless of player skill there are many groups that dont have the skillpoints to pull it off. OR the kind of money invested in the game to pull that off. Some guy who doesn't know how to fit a claymore and came to EVE O forums for the answer is probably not a member of any of those groups.
A claymore will be a fun ship to pvp in. A loki will not.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.05.07 21:25:00 -
[19]
Screw it.
Paging anyone who flies a cloaky command loki in safespots on their main with no alts. Please simply state that you do this thing in the thread. I want to see if you exist.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.07 23:42:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/05/2011 23:44:36
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Screw it.
Paging anyone who flies a cloaky command loki in safespots on their main with no alts. Please simply state that you do this thing in the thread. I want to see if you exist.
I have done this thing many times.
Ed: I should point out that IMO T3s are off the ****ing hook - unprobeable + covops cloak + mad gang links + interdiction nullifying + awesome agility + scan probe launcher ... I mean seriously now. Also: I trained Command Ships 5 twice - even after I flew T3s - because CSs do one very important thing that T3s don't. They jump into the enemy and force a fight. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Laura Baretta
Minmatar Versatech Co. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.05.08 08:11:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Laura Baretta on 08/05/2011 08:13:03 Edited by: Laura Baretta on 08/05/2011 08:12:04 Hiroshima, no one is arguing that T3 unprobable boosters are being a better booster than a normal command ship. In certain situations. Like for example in a large fleet fight that revolves around a single system where you set up a safe spot once and start boosting for the rest of the night.
I wouldn't do that on a main tho, because its just boring as hell.
But at the same time i can think of situations where traditional command ships are the better choice, for example if the gang is roaming and moving fast, as i wrote before. There is no point in a T3 booster there because most of the time the fights are over before you start boosting. Not to mention the hassle of playing your combat main and booster alt at the same time.
I'm speaking of expirience here. I've done it and in the end switched to a vulture/damnation/claymore instead when i go on a roam. I am talking about fast moving gangs here that rely on the element of surprise alot. If it is system defence or gate camping then of course i would use a legion/tengu/loki set up at a safe or PoS to boost all day long.
You see, theoretically you are right, but practically it is not that easy.
PS: calling traditional Fleet command ships crap is a bit out of line, alltho i agree they should be boosted to 5%. They are excellent ships that can do things a T3 booster will never be able to do. My command ship fits all include a cyno generator. Try that on a T3 cloaky booster for example
Please resize imageto a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
David Clausewitz
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.08 08:57:00 -
[22]
absolution
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Dray
Caldari Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2011.05.08 09:47:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Dray on 08/05/2011 09:48:34
Originally by: Articulas Maximus Hey all,
Ive recently started training the last few bit to be able to fly a Claymore then il be geeting my leadership skills up to increase the fleet boosting but my questions are
1. Is there a more effective ship then the Claymore for this role?
2. Is there a reccomended ship setup to use?
3. Has anyone got any advice for this role in a fleet to be the most effective?
Laura has answered your questions as well as you could've hoped, I'd just add that unless your skills are close to max I would wait until they were close or even maxed before going into a fight unless of course you're the only command option available.
Also I'd like to see FC ships given a boost but in the future given CCP's track record a T3 command bonus nerf is more likely.
Quick edit: Maxed out leadership/cs/t3 alt for all races signing in.
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Maximillian Dragonard
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.05.08 10:29:00 -
[24]
I doubt they nerf t3 command bonuses, but I do think that sometime in the future (who knows when), boosting will require being on grid.
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Dray
Caldari Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2011.05.08 11:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Maximillian Dragonard I doubt they nerf t3 command bonuses, but I do think that sometime in the future (who knows when), boosting will require being on grid.
Possibly but then the T3 cs wouldn't be an option any more, they only really come into their own, for me, when they are gimped so they can field 3-4 links.
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