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Doc Who
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Posted - 2003.07.01 10:30:00 -
[1]
Edited: 04/07 MUAHAHAHAHAHA - told you it would be worse than before.
(Blows his own trumpet)........Hangon.......I just lost 14 million as a result of this........CRYYYYYYYYYYYY
Discussion follows:
The most elegant fix is to limit Factory and Lab ownership to skill ability. For Corps, have a limit of no more than 1 per person in Corp with the Corp losing any slots that aren't used during a lease period.
Now as to why the patch changes will tend to screw things up even more. Firstly I concede that more slots will become available as a result of people not using all their slots in a lease period. This will mostly apply to factory slots as lab slots can be tied up for ages with the multiple research option.
However, Corps can still rent out as many slots as they can pay for so the greedy people still have a way to tie up as many slots as they want to. So that actually solves nothing. The system can still be easily abused, and of course it will be.
In addition the change will punish people that have rented out only a few slots in accordance with their current skill level and their expectations of future needs. If I go on a holiday for example and then am not in a huge rush to manufacture something when I come back in all my slots I can easily lose the unused slots. I may not always feel the need to manufacture and research all the time because I am trying to do some serious agent missions. etc. etc.
There are lots of plausible reasons for not using all slots in a lease period that can cause a person with only a few slots to lose them.
C'mon CCP there are better fixes than the one you are proposing. This one fixes little, or nothing and is potentially unfair to perfectly reasonable and un-selfish users.
Edited by: Doc Who on 01/07/2003 12:32:56
Edited by: Doc Who on 04/07/2003 14:26:55 |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.01 11:09:00 -
[2]
Read the patch notes more carefully. There's a slight change wich makes this not possible - if a slot wasn't used in the last rental period it will get free again...
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Freak
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Posted - 2003.07.01 11:50:00 -
[3]
I must say that i quite like CCP's approach, you can still rent slots and effectivly "Hog" them but only if you are willing to keep using them over and over and over.. costing you money and damaging your profits if you simply keep making things just to keep the slot.. it makes things expensive and floods the market with whatever you are buying and damages your profit accordingly..
The guy who started this Thread (sry cant remember name) is effectivly moaning (sry dude but that is how it sounds IMHO) that he CANT hog the slots !!
THANK GOD !!! is all i can say... it gives everyone the chance to actually use them.. if you arent going to use them then let someone else use it.. with this system in place (and a little tweaking... ie more slots, build cues etc...) it should mean a more competitive and profitable market place and also allow the noobs to make some money.
I am a relative noob and have seriously struggled to be able to afford my cruiser.. the only way i could effectivly make money was to group up with 2 friends, buy an Indy and completley destroy 3 asteroid belts in about 12 hours... this is 1) boring, 2) boring and 3)there is nothing left for the other noobs to mine... not good.
I think it is good that CCP are trying to prevent ppl from hoging the slots..keep it up !! now try the Labs !! :)
FreakOfNature AKA: Freak.
Quote : "If God posted his second coming here i would ban his ass for being off topic !" :)
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Reathe
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Posted - 2003.07.01 11:50:00 -
[4]
I think the fixes are more to stop corps tying up hundreds for factory and research slots in areas they most likely have not even been back to since they rented the slots.
Having to use the slots every 3 days or losing them WILL free up a majority of slots that are being blocked by people.
It will also mean corps get to keep the slots where they do the most production. And if you can't use all the slots then you should not HAVE all the slots!
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Will McBlack
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Posted - 2003.07.01 12:03:00 -
[5]
IMHO part of this problem would be solved when players can only use (and therefore rent) as many factories as their mass production skill allows. A similar thing would hold for labs, however, the laboratory ops skill needs to be implemented in order for this to work.
Problem arises when it comes to Corp-Rented factories/laboratories... how many slots per corp do you allow? 1/4 of its member count rounded down?
I am curious how the new patch is gonna sort all of this out. Not sure about the renting costs of factories now, but the prices were ok imho.
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Doc Who
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Posted - 2003.07.01 12:18:00 -
[6]
Why do people not read what they are replying to?
The point I am making is this will NOT stop corporations hogging as many slots as they want.
It can and will UNFAIRLY effect people with only 1 slot for example who just dont happen to want to use it for a while.
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Euphoria DeGryn
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Posted - 2003.07.01 12:48:00 -
[7]
I suspect that this fix will make the slots change hands a lot more often. You hire a slot, make some stuff, foget it, it goes free, rehire when you want to make more slots.
If people have to put some effort into keeping a slot when they don't need it there's a good chacne they won't bother, knowing that when they do need one there's a good chacne a slot will be free either immediately or pretty soon.
The change that's really going to make the difference is actually having to pay rent on corp slots. Currently you rent it once and forget it cos it's yours for all time with no effort.
Sez I, and of course I know everything me...
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Relic
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Posted - 2003.07.01 13:19:00 -
[8]
To block a research slot under the new rules, just set a BP to research 10000, or better yet copy 100000. This will take a very long time and the player does not have to revisit the station. By doing a copy, you can even check the current status by looking at you asset list and seeing how many copies have been done.
To block a factory slot, just produce 100 rounds of ammo every 3 days in each slot. The change does work better, but will still allow a player to block a whole station or region at a time.
The best change so far is that players are going to have to start paying rent every 3 days rather than monthly.
Relic
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Freak
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Posted - 2003.07.01 13:38:00 -
[9]
@Doc Who (See got your name this time !! ;) ) I did read what was put and IMHO it does read like you are for being able to "Hog" slots..
I did also state that ppl would be able to "hog" then still, but it would mean that slots become available more often as ppl dont get to stations in time to get something building and loose it or they wont travel the 50 jumps to go an renew it..
it wont free up slots in the popular areas like Kisogo as too many ppl will want them so you will be more inclinded to keep that slot busy.
I think it will be better for the small guy as well being that slots in the outer regions will get freed up as ppl wont travel that far to go rent it.. that obviously depends on your personal preference for what you wish to do with your char but it will still help in any respect..
It will be a case of wait and see i think before we can make a real judgment as to whether or not it will help the situation..
FreakOfNature AKA: Freak.
Quote : "If God posted his second coming here i would ban his ass for being off topic !" :)
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Doc Who
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Posted - 2003.07.01 14:14:00 -
[10]
Well I personally don't have a problem - I only have a few slots in a busy area so not difficult at all to keep them going. Also have corp offices in same station - so easy enough to take them up.
I just had to have my little rant :)
We will just have to wait and see how it develops....
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.01 14:54:00 -
[11]
"The point I am making is this will NOT stop corporations hogging as many slots as they want."
I cannot really follow you there I'm afraid. Again, in order not to loose rented slots THEY HAVE TO BE USED. A corp can rent all slots in a system, but if they are not using them in a rental period the rent will be canceled!
Can you please tell me how a corp could hug a lot of slots with that system?
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Doc Who
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Posted - 2003.07.01 15:04:00 -
[12]
The use or lose rule does not apply to Corps - as long as they pay the rent they can keep the slots.
So very easy for them to rent out everything in sight as rentals aren't a serious hurdle at all.
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.01 15:13:00 -
[13]
Can you tell me how you come to this idea? there is nothing in the patch notes that says there is a different behaviour between corp and private slots.
Edited by: Ilia Volyova on 01/07/2003 15:13:15
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Doc Who
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Posted - 2003.07.01 15:40:00 -
[14]
Got it from these 2 points in the patch notes.
>If you do not use a slot within a rental period you can't extend the lease on it, whether or not you pay the bill. If you do pay the bill then the money is transfered back to the account where it came from.
>Corp hangars and factory/research facility slots billing issues have been resolved, requiring payment to continue their use.
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Pratchett TCE
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Posted - 2003.07.01 19:47:00 -
[15]
For my specific situation in EVE, the change will absolutly fix the lack of factories in my home system. My corp decided that the best profits and the least agrivation lay in deep space 0.0 security and nobody in sight for jumps. We got to our chosen location and suprise suprise no offices, labs, or factories available. Now this is 15+ jumps out from caldari space.. middle of nowhere basically.
I am sure nothing is being produced because nobody is ever in the system and nothing is for sale on the market at the station. I am sure that all but maybe 1 or 2 of the slots will come available and stay that way after the changes are made.
I think the fix is appropriate for alot of the problem because it simply makes it so one must invest time and money to keep more factory slots then they need. At the same time it makes it so a corp legitimatly using a factory will be almost uneffected except for having to use it more frequently. Then again maybe their intention was to make it so factory slots are'nt somthing you keep.. maybe they are supposed to be dynamic rent-when-you-need type of a deal. If theres always some available then that wouldnt be a problem...
If a player/corp is willing to put in that time and money to dominate factory slots then more power to em! Like the other guy said.. if they want to weaken their position by keeping rental on more slots then they can use go for it! In the end they will loose and thats the way it should be.
I think its an effective solution for some situations (like mine).. but still lacking for inner space IMHO. And thats simply because it still too easy to dominate slots in heavily populated areas if you have the man-hours available in your corp to do it. Thanks for reading.
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.01 20:41:00 -
[16]
You are misunderstanding the second entry.
ATM corp slots do not have to be paid in order to be used. The patch corrects this bug, so corps have to pay the bills for their slots like everyone else.
I see nothing there which means that they can continue to use their slots if they produce nothing with them.
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Ogmios
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Posted - 2003.07.01 21:06:00 -
[17]
Corp slots definitely do get unrented. On the test server the slots I had for my corp in our first office all unrented themselves. (Being as I hadnt logged onto the test server in several days.)
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Doc Who
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Posted - 2003.07.01 23:15:00 -
[18]
Well if Corps also lose their slots due to no use then I agree that this will solve a lot of problems in the more outward areas.
Potentially as a previous poster said this may well not solve the inner slot problems and would still be unfair to people that go away for a few days to perhaps lose their prime slots and would then have to go to outer systems to use slots again. In addition if they have prime slots they may like me have paid a lot of money for the purchase of those slots.
Personally I would be out of pocket by 14million ISK. I am sure some would be even worse off. I was not greedy I only have a few slots in good areas which I paid to try to get our very small Corp a position in a good territory. We do not as yet have the man power to always keep these slots busy. If we lose them they are likely to get snapped up by a big corp, effectively forcing us to move outwards.
So right now I am ****ed off as this situation should have been handled by limiting slots to skill ability as was indicated was going to happen in various online chats. Money loss aside I still feel that is the best solution.
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Shauna
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Posted - 2003.07.02 00:37:00 -
[19]
I am not sure how this will really change things from the current state of affairs. All someone has to do is take a carbonized S BP with them and build some everywhere they have factories. So, they didn't go unused so they'll be kept.
I think it'll go down like this: A lot of factories will go free initially, but people will just grab them up again, make 100 rounds of carbonized S each week and spam the trade channel selling the slots for 1 million isk each within a week.
I think a better solution would be:
Make a single entry point for production: a simple FIFO queue could distribute prod runs on the 16 slots at stations with factories. The fee could be made proportional to the time you use in production. - this would have the added benefit of lowering prod costs for people who specialized in industry and can manufacture faster :D
-or-
Only let people use a factory for a production run only. Don't rent them out for days or weeks before a new billing cycle. The fee could be a set fee, or maybe make it proportional to prod run time.
Anyhoo, just my 2 pesos. |
Trimax
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Posted - 2003.07.02 03:41:00 -
[20]
I have been testing on Chaos, Corps do have to pay rent & do loose slots. I am a small corp and the ability to have more slots than my skill level or the total corp Mass Production skill is extremely important for my business plan. The fact that factories must be re-used every rental period is a good criteria, 3 days, 7days are issues with the plan, 30 days was way too long. As the only director/CEO level and active member, that means I have to pay the bills every day, for one one slot or another. We have been using all slots each rental period. A larger corp could insure that some member paid the bills & specific members were responsible for using the slots. This model should work, especially with rents at around 50k-80k per three days. My corp will most-likely have to give up some slots, that means stations where I have offices will be looking for new slots. Hopefully they will become available, since without access to factories via corporate hangers for corp members, my corp will not continue.
I'm keeping the corp alive with the current situation, I hope to prosper in the next model.
PS. I need to have corp members sell from corp hangers ( my 2% ).
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Arondos
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Posted - 2003.07.02 04:33:00 -
[21]
I still think the simplest solution would be abolish the slots altogether and charge a fee per time used. You could still limit it so a person can only produce as many items at a time as they have skill levels.
Put it on supply/demand. If the factory is constantly producing things the cost per minute goes up. Using an out of the way place would cut your costs. Operating in a busy station would cost more and cut your profits.
Other than it gives everyone with BP's and minerals the ability to produce things I don't see any real disadvantage.
Advantages?
1. Everyone with a BP can actually produce things. You aren't quite so tied down to supply lines. Take the BP's for your ammo with you and recycle pirate ore and build your own.
2. Production/Research in busy areas will cost more cutting profits and encourage people to move. (Of course they need to be able to open offices which is another can of worms)
3. You get charged for the time you use. Simple items wouldn't cost much to make. More complex items would cost more since they take longer. As is you pay a flat rent and it costs the same to produce 100 rounds of ammo or a cruiser doesn't make much sense.
4. It would give a benefit to people who can cut production times. As is does it really matter if you can make a cruiser in 2.5 hours instead of 3 hours? But if everytime you produce something you save time you save money under this system.
5. People might actually move around with blueprints since they will be able to produce things wherever they go. Resulting in a chance to pick off someone carrying BP's. As is it's get the BP's to wherever the slots are and never, ever move them since there is no reason to.
Just my .02
Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it. |
Doc Who
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Posted - 2003.07.04 14:28:00 -
[22]
I believe this still has relevance
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