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Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2011.09.27 03:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm pretty new to EVE (Employment history aside; this account has seen a good amount of downtime) so my question is due to curiosity and maybe a little more time with the game I could probably later understand why people think this way....but here goes...
what is with the carebear stigma? i could be wrong but from my understanding the majority of the EVE economy is player driven, wouldn't you technically need these 'carebears' to keep the economy afloat. I understand they're not people you want in PvP or those defending your miners (who also garner the stigma).
I was just wondering really and was hoping to see what the opinions are.
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The Apostle
The Black Priests
98
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Posted - 2011.09.27 03:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:majority of the EVE economy is player driven, wouldn't you technically need these 'carebears' to keep the economy afloat. I understand they're not people you want in PvP or those defending your miners (who also garner the stigma).
I was just wondering really and was hoping to see what the opinions are. Easily answered. The military.
For every frontline troop there are (best guess) 10 "rear-echelon" soldiers.
No rear-echelon soldier ever needs to be "brave" "daring" or "courageous". Thus they are not "fighters" but (read) cowardly individuals unable or unwilling to fight. (That's perception, not fact)
Thus they are treated with contempt by the "leets" who, if my hypothesis is correct, aren't "leet" at all.
Take no notice. Genuinely and truly brave/courageous people are usually the first to acknowledge that the people around them are what makes them great.
Go 'Bears... Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. |
Kaede Kimura
Epsilon Inc STORM.
3
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Posted - 2011.09.27 03:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
It just comes from a simple fact that people feel that anyone can PvE (melt rocks, grind missions), but PvP is where one can really prove their skill. It also depends on how you define carebear, would station traders be included? Playing on the market can be considered as a form of pvp in EVE. |
Tuggboat
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.09.27 03:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pay no mind, they are just another form of assault they throw at the only people they can kill since they usually aren't fit for battle. |
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2011.09.27 03:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kaede Kimura wrote:It just comes from a simple fact that people feel that anyone can PvE (melt rocks, grind missions)...
while i agree with that to a degree, we cant all PvP, otherwise the economy goes to hell and we have nothing to buy (unless CCP starts making it NPC driven).
as for the question of traders, that really just opens a can of worms in terms of the various interpretations one can put out: one can argue that mining is PvP as you're trying to be the best miner of all miners with the biggest haul and the biggest infrastructure available to you (assuming you have your own)....or i can argue that I'm PvP-ing to get the most dog tags amongst all mission runners....
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Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
79
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Posted - 2011.09.27 03:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
simple. people who live in low or nullsec or sometimes wormhole think that PVP is all there is to eve. they then proceed to try and convince, harass, or anything else that is an annoyance to anything that isnt pvp..
the tl;dr is, there are many pvpidiots who think their castle in the sandbox is best and the only way eve should be played. |
Gregor Palter
58
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Posted - 2011.09.27 04:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
it depends how you define the term carebear. If you explain it as "people who do non-combat pvp" then I agree with most in this thread about how silly it is, and just to ignore the idiot who use it.
To me a carebear is someone who simply does not acknowledge the fact that this is a PVP game and that, sooner or later, it might knock on his door. Who will flail his arms blaming others for his own lack of effort and understanding. Someone who loses a hauler to a suicide is not necessarily a carebear, he just couldn't be bothered. Someone who starts whining about how unfair it is and how it is impossible to not get suicided blahblahblah, THAT is a carebear.
I realise that this is a very limited view and probably not how the majority sees it. |
stoicfaux
242
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Posted - 2011.09.27 04:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Generally speaking, carebears only engage in PvE content and tend to actively avoid any kind of PvP activity, such as direct ship combat, trading, market manipulations, politics, spying or infiltrating corporations, scamming, etc..
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Sebero Sinak
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.09.27 04:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Don't worry about a label, if you get to see the cesspool that 0.0 and pvp'er is you'll just think that those who do it need professional help. Probably the best enjoyment in Eve is working in a corp to do something like set up a wormhole pos and build stuff. You'll be a carebear but you'll grow small claws. - Keep the wormhole thingy quiet thou because it's the last refuge of truely good gameplay. |
Sebero Sinak
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.09.27 04:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
dbl button |
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Samroski
Games Inc. EVE Trade Consortium
1
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Posted - 2011.09.27 04:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
This issue separates the boys from men. Having said that, I am a boy and proud of it. |
Riggs Droput
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.09.27 04:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
I am not going to call anyone a carebear if they just run missions, as I have run missions many time. But if I were to gank said carebear and he begins to wine, complain and petition a GM i will taunt them about their weak ways and tell them that WOW >>>>>
We all have to Isk up some how. People could call ratters or plex'rs carebears as well. Same with WH dwellers, to me they are all just isk'n up.
TLDR : If you actively avoid PVP and complain when your die to another player your a bear.
Riggs I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees |
Thorn Galen
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2011.09.27 05:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm a carebear - I do not actively participate in PvP. That does not stop me going into low and null sec for exploration. Recently I dove into a small fleet battle to save the Sov belonging to a respected and well-known individual. Being a carebear is something you can wear with pride - you play the game the way you want to play it, not the way others wish to dictate to you.
I have seen PvP'ers go at each other, only to be friends and join the same Corp soon after. In other words, PvP'ers end-up having fewer and fewer PvP'ers to pew-pew because they either join the same Corp, or their Corp becomes a member of the same Alliance. Those PvP'ers are the one's who then want to brand everyone who does not PvP as a carebear.
I say it's cool, bring on the labels. I'm enjoying this game the way a sandbox game is meant to be played - ie, do what you want, how you want (within the confines of the rules laid down by CCP)
If I get suicide ganked, so be it - The old saying is so true - "Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose".
There are many so-called "carebears" who will kick serious aZZ should they get involved in PvP, so don't kid yourself about being labelled a carebear - it's all good.
Cheers.
(This space for rent) |
Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2011.09.27 05:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Doing missions or being a dedicated miner or somesuch doesn't automatically make one a Carebear. However, hearing people complain about gate camps or those evil 0.0 goons ruining making their game more interesting shows a certain misunderstanding of the core concepts of this game. While it might be argued that EvE is not _just_ PvP-focused it is beyond doubt that New Eden provides a completely amoral environment where "evil" deeds sometimes have little consequence.
Essentially, the typically Carebear would play WoW only to mine copper in Dun Morogh and then complain about those big bad Horde types killing him. Except in EvE, as it stands, you can get every metal except Obsidian in Dun Morogh and reach level 85 AND get beautiful epixx to boot. Which makes their sentiment even more hilarious. |
Jokerface666
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
17
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Posted - 2011.09.27 05:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
LOOOOL
it's just a word.
i can assure you that EVERY PVPer has at least one CARABERING ACCOUNT, be it trading, missioning, industry... be it just looting the wrecks and reprocessing..
what do you think enables a pvper to get one ship per week blown up minimum, we have to get ISK too.
Also everyone started as a carabear, so everyone is a carabear a little bit!
the end. ------------------------------w00t w00t rapetrain------------------------------ |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
63
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Posted - 2011.09.27 05:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
The problem here is that some people can not or will not understand that we all play and view this game in a different way
I pay for this game and i will play this game how i want it , within the boundries ccp has created , CCP is giving players the opportunity to be play this game in many different ways, some people just don't or will not understand this
There is indeed a focus in pvp and that makes the game so good Meaning that each time you undock you are taking a risk and you always need to look over your shoulders
And there are indeed people who avoid any possible danger or risk and even demand a 10 man escort just to get from Amarr to jita , for them the world ends at the last gate in high sec. sad but true
I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
63
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Posted - 2011.09.27 05:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
double post please ignore I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Barricade Dark
39
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Well I played as a carebear with my main for many years, though I'm not even sure I actually qualify since while I was an industrial character I rarely stayed confined to High Sec, the ISK and ventures where usually in at least low sec if not Null and more recently in Wormholes. That said however when I decided to make a new account and make a new character I wanted to try out some new ways to play Eve (though I stil do industrial ventures).
So far my experiances have been awsome and I'm having a lot of fun with PvP, but the truth is that the wining from other PvPers is as extreme and common as the carebears. The imaturity and local tears are endless.
Last night for example I was doing some PI transports in a basic indi and I ran up on a gate camp. I tried to break through it but their where just too many of them (I counted about 7 or 8 ships). But I noticed that I had an oppertunity their, given that all of the gate campers where -10.0 sec rating so they couldn't cross into the high sec side of the gate. I formulated a plan where I would warn people about the gate camp. Got in my rifter and started putting out "WARNING: GATE CAMP" named cans. I was expecting some kind of response, at first they just sent alts to clean up the cans so I poped the alts. After I killed the guy however the tears and imaturity started. He called be a ****, he cried about how I was a noob and put up cans calling me names and stuff. Not exactly the PvPer response I was expecting. But I persisted, hoping someone would actually grow some balls and in the meantime I was definitily having an impact on their gate camp success, at least half the people where smart enough to read the cans and turn around (though some people still went through and would return in pods which was kind of sad). I did save an Obelisk and got a personal thank you which was cool to see I was having an impact.
Anyway after the tears the gate camp eventually gave up but one guy came back and I goted him into some real PvP. I tried double teaming him with my main in a stealth bomber and my rifter, but I ended up loosing the rifter and barely escaped with the Stealth bomber. My oppossition was a 05er in a rifter, which I should probobly have been able to beat but I think my fitting on the Stealth Bomber was all wrong. Anywho, it was an awsome experiance... but just go to show you that a single nub can have a real impact on an entire gate camp and more importantly that PvPers are often as big of babies as the carebears.
The lesson here is... play the game... do something, crying in Local... well.. lets just say that the guy was a real emberassment to his group. Thankfully one of his friends was more mature and showed some skill in the end their and redeamed his reputation a bit. |
knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
0
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
99.9% of eve players do some form of carebearing. Just some do it more than others. The hate in part comes when in 0.0 a defense fleet is called yet a bunch of people don't turn up as theyre to busy farming the land you're going to protect. I think that's part of the reason the nc failed, most of the time fleets were made up of a core few who got burnt out while the majority were farming like mad.
Most people carebear though, its how they afford ships. Some of the carebear hate comes from those that get free income like many corp and alliance leaderships who skim taxes or people that bot/rmt and look at carebears as stupid. |
Qupid Stunt
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Actually I think the distinction has nothing to do with ability. Some people just like to build things Some people just like to blow things up
If any of you have played the Egosoft X games then just take a look on their forums. There is a clear distinction between the empire builders and the combat pilots. It doesn't really matter if its pixels or people you are shooting. Some people want a long term strategic challenge and the feeling of accomplishment while other just want the short tem adrenaline rush.
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Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Some people here seem to confuse the act of making money to spend it on, for example, PvP ships with the act of making money for the sake of making money. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
276
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
Seraph Cruoris wrote:I'm pretty new to EVE (Employment history aside; this account has seen a good amount of downtime) so my question is due to curiosity and maybe a little more time with the game I could probably later understand why people think this way....but here goes...
what is with the carebear stigma? i could be wrong but from my understanding the majority of the EVE economy is player driven, wouldn't you technically need these 'carebears' to keep the economy afloat. I understand they're not people you want in PvP or those defending your miners (who also garner the stigma).
I was just wondering really and was hoping to see what the opinions are.
You seem to be under the assumption that people who can PvP can't make move or sell goods. In fact most of them do, because economically speaking, being a PvPer is a negative-sum game and the majority of PvPers need an income.
A "carebear" isn't necessarily someone who makes ships or mines or whatever. It's someone who refuses to accept that they should be at risk when they do so. That's the attitude that many find so annoying: that sense of entitlement, the idea that they should never have to face any actual loss.
If all of these people disappeared overnight, the EVE economy would take a little while to adjust, and then carry on just fine tyvm, because as I said above, there are PvPers who mine, make, move and sell things to each other already. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seraph Cruoris wrote:I'm pretty new to EVE (Employment history aside; this account has seen a good amount of downtime) so my question is due to curiosity and maybe a little more time with the game I could probably later understand why people think this way....but here goes...
what is with the carebear stigma? i could be wrong but from my understanding the majority of the EVE economy is player driven, wouldn't you technically need these 'carebears' to keep the economy afloat. I understand they're not people you want in PvP or those defending your miners (who also garner the stigma).
I was just wondering really and was hoping to see what the opinions are.
Yes and no.
You also need those anti-carebear initiative to keep the demand flowing...
In other words if you get your pimp out tengu or nightmare or whatever strikes you fancy and you will have it for eternity your got no other goal to look forward. So the pirates just giving you reason to play.
and to put some light into it or to wrap it around shadows .. choice is yours
Carebear as i see it.. is kind of player who is "naive" and try to help his fellow capsuler. Be it teaching basic strategies, giving insight to matter of PvP, mission hunting, plexing, you name it. As well as try to protect them.
So being carebear does not necessarily means you are against the idea of PvP. You just got different codex to kill other people ships.
/signed Carebear .. failed at trying to PvP for other people. So i stick around and helping others with theories i learned from people who actually can. |
Jokerface666
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
17
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Exactly, it are people running around with plexes in the cargohold and ending filling a petition about it, unwilling to accept that this is eve.
For example i have an alt in hs which is running a pos an making tons of stuff, thats how i can afford my 0,0 ventures, i can tell you it's not cheap. ------------------------------w00t w00t rapetrain------------------------------ |
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quote: You seem to be under the assumption that people who can pvp can't make move or sell goods. In fact most of them do, because economically speaking, being a PvPer is a negative-sum game and the majority of PvPers need an income.
I never made that assumption. To clarify what I meant to say is this, you need dedicated non pvp-ers to add to the economy. don't get me wrong I know pvp-ers need to make ISK and will be found doing the non pvp professions to do so; but how many would you say do it to keep their pvp-ing going vs how many of them do it to make money and inadvertently keep the economy running?
Quote:If all of these people disappeared overnight, the EVE economy would take a little while to adjust, and then carry on just fine tyvm, because as I said above, there are PvPers who mine, make, move and sell things to each other already.
if you mean people will create alts to become 'carebears' and supplement the economy - sure. if you mean the economy will be sustainable by small bursts of ISK circulation and product circulation - i doubt it.
Quote:You also need those anti-carebear initiative to keep the demand flowing...
I understand this. My question isn't that there is no need for carebears or no need for pvp-ers but rather that the stigma that is the 'carebear' label seems to negate the importance those role are to the EVE economy. my question is why the negative association with said professions....but as some already have addressed...carebears should really be labeled only to those who feel there should be a risk-free gameplay in EVE or for people who believe the pve roles should operate without the pvp elements...and not simply to those who want to play the game and only mine or mission run etc
someone said its only a word; in a sociological spectrum stigma would probably be the best term to describe what 'carebear' has become in EVE... |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
well many people use many words lightly.
be it abbreviations / internet vocabulary which by constant abusing become meaningless such as LoL, OMG etc. the meaning behind those is clear, however people use them all the time in situations they are not suited to.
As well as you said stigma words such as Carebear, PvPer. Which in the end means fellow player nothing more nothing less... Thats how i see it. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
276
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Seraph Cruoris wrote:Quote: You seem to be under the assumption that people who can pvp can't make move or sell goods. In fact most of them do, because economically speaking, being a PvPer is a negative-sum game and the majority of PvPers need an income. I never made that assumption. To clarify what I meant to say is this, you need dedicated non pvp-ers to add to the economy. don't get me wrong I know pvp-ers need to make ISK and will be found doing the non pvp professions to do so; but how many would you say do it to keep their pvp-ing going vs how many of them do it to make money and inadvertently keep the economy running? Quote:If all of these people disappeared overnight, the EVE economy would take a little while to adjust, and then carry on just fine tyvm, because as I said above, there are PvPers who mine, make, move and sell things to each other already. if you mean people will create alts to become 'carebears' and supplement the economy - sure. if you mean the economy will be sustainable by small bursts of ISK circulation and product circulation - i doubt it.
So a PvPer with an industry alt is a carebear, but a carebear with a PvP alt isn't a PvPer? How does your logic work here?
What if the "alt" is in fact the same character? Like I said, "PvPers" can train industry, science, marketing or hauling skills just as well as anyone else. Supposing I use this character to farm Rogue Drone sites and haul minerals to station until I feel like PvPing. Am I a carebear or a PvPer?
You seem to be stuck in a class-based mindset; if someone is a priest, then they're not a rogue. But in EVE, people can switch character class merely by switching the ship they're in.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
to Jarsolav: except no one really brands pvp-ers as a negative role (whiners aside). carebears carry a negative associations with it no matter its use (people will never identify themselves really as a carebear)...people 'inside' might use it as a joking term to throw around cause its become the label that they are associated with but when they talk to people 'outside' they will probably identify themselves as their profession be it traders, miners, haulers etc
to Malcanis: im not in a class based mindset. you're misunderstanding what im trying to talk about here...edit: im not saying there is a class A and class B and you can only do one or the other. im asking why roles other than pvp carry the carebear label which is either used as an insult or to belittle the role of the individual within EVE dynamics (sure this is all opinion based and simple epeen smack talk but otherwise no one goes "you're just a pvp-er who needs to listen to you" at least i havent seen that)...
like people have said and ive resaid...a carebear should be the naive players who misunderstand what EVE is and how it plays and not a broad stroke branding of roles people may solely dedicate themselves too |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.09.27 07:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Seraph Cruoris wrote:to Jarsolav: except no one really brands pvp-ers as a negative role (whiners aside). carebears carry a negative associations with it no matter its use (people will never identify themselves really as a carebear)...people 'inside' might use it as a joking term to throw around cause its become the label that they are associated with but when they talk to people 'outside' they will probably identify themselves as their profession be it traders, miners, haulers etc
to Malcanis: im not in a class based mindset. you're misunderstanding what im trying to talk about here...
well i try to switch to real life example : homosexual/Gay ... somehow it carry the negative association, But is it covered by some hard evidence in regards of "moral view" etc. .. like they are more inclined to crime? No...
I would say if carebears stop taking word carebear as an negative one, then it would simply stop being negative. You allways see people who says you are carebear, and you allways see people who defend themselfs as they are not and take it as an insult.. I ask why.. What the other person who labeled it that way did to make you think you are worse being or better being?
viz my description of carebear .. I am proud to be one.. No i dont excel at any aspect of EvE but i got some information background, so i know stuff i just cant reproduce its effectivness myself...
Nothing exactly... Its only our own perception of things... Bad/Good doesnt really exist outside our mindset. |
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.27 07:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Seraph Cruoris wrote:to Jarsolav: except no one really brands pvp-ers as a negative role (whiners aside). carebears carry a negative associations with it no matter its use (people will never identify themselves really as a carebear)...people 'inside' might use it as a joking term to throw around cause its become the label that they are associated with but when they talk to people 'outside' they will probably identify themselves as their profession be it traders, miners, haulers etc
to Malcanis: im not in a class based mindset. you're misunderstanding what im trying to talk about here... well i try to switch to real life example : homosexual/Gay ... somehow it carry the negative association, But is it covered by some hard evidence in regards of "moral view" etc. .. like they are more inclined to crime? No... I would say if carebears stop taking word carebear as an negative one, then it would simply stop being negative. You allways see people who says you are carebear, and you allways see people who defend themselfs as they are not and take it as an insult.. I ask why.. What the other person who labeled it that way did to make you think you are worse being or better being? Nothing exactly... Its only our own perception of things... Bad/Good doesnt really exist outside our mindset.
well said. but even though. everyone does or seemingly do use it as a negative.
lets take your example further: if im not mistaken to be called homosexual is 'politically correct' and is not offensive where as calling someone 'gay' or '****' is (at least of the people i know feel this way).
where does the line between objective and subjective start when you're name calling...when does it become an insult?..
edit: even CCP thinks its offensive lol (didnt realise they auto censored) |
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