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King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
286
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 16:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
The d-scanner is a tool all of us in low/null sec use all the time. It's also a piece of crap. While CCP is on the fixing old stuff bit, I suggest redoing the d-scanner from scratch. Delete it in its current form and give us a proper radar set. My proposal for this radar set is as follows:
1) Gives a heading for all ships and selected items within a 14au range while in active mode.
2) Provides only general data on long range targets (a stabber will show up simply as "cruiser") in both active and passive modes.
3) Data increases in detail as range decreases, the exact range it would start giving specific ship types is debatable.
4) At short ranges in active mode, it can provide a range (I'm thinking 1-2au) thus granting a warpable point. This would be subject to substantial deviation however (you might land 150km from your target or right next to him). The deviation would go down the closer you get.
5) Radar can be used in active and passive modes. In active mode it alerts everyone of your presence within 2x your radar range (34au).
6) In passive mode, your radar doesn't reveal you but it has greatly reduced functionality. You can still see ships and objects using active radar at up to 34au but ships and objects in passive mode (or without radar) will only show up at 4au. You cannot get a range or warpable point regardless of how close you are in passive mode.
7) both combat and core probes are powerful active scanning devices and as such will show up on everyone's radar set regardless of its mode at extreme ranges (system wide).
Optional: IFF system allowing you to identify radar targets as friend or foe (gives standings/corp/alliance info only). This would be a short range feature.
That's it, proceed with ripping it apart and calling me a fool. The Troll is trolling. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
406
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 16:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I like the concept of an active and passive mode the way you described it. There's room for interesting stuff in there.
The active mode could be tied to local chat, ie. if you use active mode, you show up in local but get the best intel as well. In passive you don't show up in local but get much less intel.
Anyway, it shouldn't be called radar. Radar systems are based on electromagnetic waves that travel at light speed. It means they take 499 seconds to travel 1 AU.
Drakes & Tengus online: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1208/fbaugust.jpg |
King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
286
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 18:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
I was very tempted to tie this into a local chat change proposal but opted not to simply because of how beaten to death that topic is. I am also well aware that it wouldn't actually be radar, it would be a radar like device operating on a technology that hasn't been invented. But let's not discuss eve physics, they are most definitely cringe worthy. The Troll is trolling. |
Loius Woo
PATRIOT KNIGHTS
179
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 18:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
I say call it "Subspace Anomaly Detection and Ranging (SADAR)".
Also, there is a problem with it as you describe and that is the warp in ability for things at close range. That means that snipers are even more screwed than they were by on grid scanning probes.
So, in addition to what you have described, I would say that the SADAR system in active mode creates too much subspace disturbance to create a warp able lock at less than 500KM range, that way snipers are not always able to be warped to.
I also think that the best way to implement it on the overview is to add a small 3D sphere that shows dots in the direction of the contacts that are being detected, and a list that you can pull up. This way, when in passive mode when you are not actively looking for people but just using it to warn of incoming, you will see just a dot pop up, maybe with a range readout (if range is available). When you go active, you open up the list as you do now.
Another possible solution would be to have the 3D sphere as I said, but also have an overview option to enable SADAR contacts to be displayed when detected. This way you don't have so much screen clutter. You could even color code SADAR contacts to more easily pick them out from on grid contacts.
Very good idea, +1 |
Justin Cody
Tri-gun Lost Obsession
26
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Posted - 2012.08.26 19:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
learn 2 dscan |
Mishtkrah
Bad Company DBD Initiative Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 19:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
For the luff of gawd! Do not encourage CCP to remove D-Scan. IF anything is to be changed please add it, not replace.
This would make a lot of people very upset. |
bornaa
GRiD.
234
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 19:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:The d-scanner is a tool all of us in low/null sec use all the time. It's also a piece of crap. While CCP is on the fixing old stuff bit, I suggest redoing the d-scanner from scratch. Delete it in its current form and give us a proper radar set. My proposal for this radar set is as follows:
1) Gives a heading for all ships and selected items within a 14au range while in active mode.
2) Provides only general data on long range targets (a stabber will show up simply as "cruiser") in both active and passive modes.
3) Data increases in detail as range decreases, the exact range it would start giving specific ship types is debatable.
4) At short ranges in active mode, it can provide a range (I'm thinking 1-2au) thus granting a warpable point. This would be subject to substantial deviation however (you might land 150km from your target or right next to him). The deviation would go down the closer you get.
5) Radar can be used in active and passive modes. In active mode it alerts everyone of your presence within 2x your radar range (34au).
6) In passive mode, your radar doesn't reveal you but it has greatly reduced functionality. You can still see ships and objects using active radar at up to 34au but ships and objects in passive mode (or without radar) will only show up at 4au. You cannot get a range or warpable point regardless of how close you are in passive mode.
7) both combat and core probes are powerful active scanning devices and as such will show up on everyone's radar set regardless of its mode at extreme ranges (system wide).
Optional: IFF system allowing you to identify radar targets as friend or foe (gives standings/corp/alliance info only). This would be a short range feature.
That's it, proceed with ripping it apart and calling me a fool.
You were watching some submarine movie while writing this? I ask because that active and passive mode... thats like sonar. You listen to sound (in this case EM waves) and you have some info about what is around you, but when you ping (create burst of sound (in this case EM wave)) you get much more info but others are alerted that you are here because pinging is loud.
I like sonar type scan idea a lot... Yes, I'm an Amateur |
Busta Rock
The DawnSoarers
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 20:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
I like the idea overall, but would suggest tying aspects of the detection, direction of contact and rangefinding capabilities to target signature. for instance, a microwarping frigate at an off-gid safe would have a MUCH larger signature (as per normal) than one that is moving normally or on afterburner, thus enabling a hunter to more easily acquire a tactical warpin from longer ranges. conversely, a ship with low sigrad and/or ECCM modules/sigrad implants in use would be more difficult to get a lock on.
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Lucious Shazih
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 20:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think this is a great idea to have radar. I don't support the idea of the radar to provide you with warp points on player ships however.
I also Definitely think that Dscan is currently pretty dumb. It's easy to use and I'm not complaing about that... but we're flying some really high tech spaceships here and yet a crappy list is what we get? it's nonsense. I don't completely agree on deleting it's current form since it doesn't require a lot of resources (it's lean).
/me gives thumbs up to a more advanced radar system. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
379
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 21:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you think d-scan only gives you a list of whats within 14au of your ship you're doing it wrong. Plus, the last thing the game needs is some auto-scanning thing to provide potential victims of space violence with ANOTHER set of alerts regarding their impending destruction. Intel channels, local, and dscan are enough. |
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Selaya Ataru
Pink Kitten Kommando To The Moon
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 21:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dscan is fine, everybody gets some basic information and it scales very well with actual playerskills (the one not measured in sp mind you). |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
851
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 22:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
supported. less spread sheet, more scifi a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
319
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 00:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
I like this idea a lot, I also like the idea of tying it to local, but I understand the OP's reasoning for omitting that option as it becomes the focus of the thread.
D-Scan is very primitive considering the setting of the game and I agree that an update is needed. I do believe that a completely auto/passive system is to black and white. There should be a manual button that works much like the current d-scan and gives the ship a snapshot of whats going on without entering fully active mode. It shouldn't give trajectories and such, just positions since it is a single scan and no delta value can be projected.
I also put in that ships that are cloaked can only use the passive abilities, I know that it was implied but I think that it needs to be clairified. |
Severian Carnifex
193
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 09:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:supported. less spread sheet, more scifi
BINGO! why the hell everything in EVE must be table/spreadsheet??? give us some sci-fi stuff, some more visual feedback. make this game feel like a game and not office work.
And one more thing, how appealing do you think is clicking on the same button every few seconds over and over and over? and then you ask why new players dont stay long in EVE. its zillion times more annoying and boring then mining, even then PI!!! Please, reconsider, and make this game a game. |
King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
291
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 11:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Loius Woo wrote:Also, there is a problem with it as you describe and that is the warp in ability for things at close range. That means that snipers are even more screwed than they were by on grid scanning probes. I also think that the best way to implement it on the overview is to add a small 3D sphere that shows dots in the direction of the contacts that are being detected, and a list that you can pull up. This way, when in passive mode when you are not actively looking for people but just using it to warn of incoming, you will see just a dot pop up, maybe with a range readout (if range is available). When you go active, you open up the list as you do now.
Another possible solution would be to have the 3D sphere as I said, but also have an overview option to enable SADAR contacts to be displayed when detected. This way you don't have so much screen clutter. You could even color code SADAR contacts to more easily pick them out from on grid contacts.
Very good idea, +1
I had a 3d display in mind for viewing the info in addition to a list mode style we currently have. I also agree that it shouldn't allow on grid warping.
Busta Rock wrote:I like the idea overall, but would suggest tying aspects of the detection, direction of contact and rangefinding capabilities to target signature. for instance, a microwarping frigate at an off-gid safe would have a MUCH larger signature (as per normal) than one that is moving normally or on afterburner, thus enabling a hunter to more easily acquire a tactical warpin from longer ranges. conversely, a ship with low sigrad and/or ECCM modules/sigrad implants in use would be more difficult to get a lock on.
Good idea, fits in perfectly. Not exactly sure on how to balance out the various effects but this is only a general idea discussion.
bornaa wrote:You were watching some submarine movie while writing this? I ask because that active and passive mode... thats like sonar. You listen to sound (in this case EM waves) and you have some info about what is around you, but when you ping (create burst of sound (in this case EM wave)) you get much more info but others are alerted that you are here because pinging is loud. I like sonar type scan idea a lot...
Actually I'm a big aviation buff so I was thinking of how real world military radar works. Modern military aircraft have a radar and a radar warning receiver. The radar works exactly like you'd think, it emits EM radiation and can use that to get both bearing and distance information. It does have limitations though like giving inaccurate ranges when you reach the limits of the set's range. It also alerts everyone at about twice you're radar's range of your presence via their radar warning receiver. The radar warning receiver alerts you of any active radar sets within it's detection range. It gives you basic info on it such as if it is airborne, SAM, ship or whatever else. It can't give range though, only type and bearing information. The Troll is trolling. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2277
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 13:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
There's nothing wrong with d-scan. I think it's a balanced mechanic that rewards the attentive player and punishes you for being sloppy and not using it. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
854
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 14:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:There's nothing wrong with d-scan. I think it's a balanced mechanic that rewards the attentive player and punishes you for being sloppy and not using it. everything is wrong with dscan from a gameplay perspective a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
+1
The SADAR is completely separate from D-scan, you don't have to remove D-scan to implement SADAR.
Active vs. passive is a perfect answer to the local chat problem as well. If you want to be out of local chat then stay passive and cloaked, but if you are hunting someone go active and be faster than them.
Now just add custom alerts for things like ships within 1 AU and other ships exploding in system and it will be a very valuable tool indeed.
To all the gankers out there, don't shed any tears because we want to better protect ourselves from you. Get smart, and find a way to work around your problems. It is a sandbox after all. |
Jessy Berbers
Tribuo Quod Victum The AirShip Pirates
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Good idea, i would love to see a sort of visual radar of roughly where everything is on the D-scan list, plus it just pulsing like a radar, and having to watch more where who ever comes for me, or where my target is heading towards.
Gankers should be also happy with this kinda of suggestion, as you can then see roughly where you're target is heading towards.
I am against the creating a warp to point though, thats what probes are for.
Greets Jessy. |
Usagi Toshiro
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
D-scan is a useful if cumbersome tool. I like the idea of SADAR as a more dynamic and quickly learnable tool.
+1 |
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Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 12:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
How about tieing in the "SADAR" onto the tactical overlay UI that's currently there (but massively underused apart from in large fleet fights I guess). |
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 12:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
I would like to see more scanning and probing functionality included in all ships. I don't think there needs to be a special ship for that. I think every ship should have probing skills and that it is an intregal part of gameplay.
I mean, how cool would it be to probe down your mission site and set your own approach. I do a horrible job of explaining thing sometimes, so I'll just a use a short scenario instead.
I recieved a call from my agent. He's found a problem in the illinfrik system. Some angels have set up a secret base there. Intel suggests that there may be multiple sites that I need to clear and to watch for reinforcements. (extravaganza type mission) I set course across the system and using my directional scanner I narrow down the possible area for the site. Its near the 4th planet in the system. I launch some probe to do a more precise scan, and after some time I am able to exact the location. I warp to a location outside their sensor range and along with my probes and ship scanner I am able to bring up a map giving me the lay of the site.
The force composition make me inclined use a long range assault due to a number of frigates that could be troublesome for my battleship, but I'll probably need the extra firepower of my autocannons, since I can only jam thier signals for so long before they break through. I set warp point for a point near thier communication array...maybe I can take it out in time.
I ready my shields...and engage... |
Avila Cracko
378
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 09:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
YEA! for this great idea! truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 10:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
bornaa wrote:You were watching some submarine movie while writing this? I ask because that active and passive mode... thats like sonar. You listen to sound (in this case EM waves) and you have some info about what is around you, but when you ping (create burst of sound (in this case EM wave)) you get much more info but others are alerted that you are here because pinging is loud. I like sonar type scan idea a lot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_radar
Not like sonar at all, just vanilla active and passive radar modes.
And I like the basis idea, but not the suggested details. I love dscan as a mechanic, I hate its UI. And I would like to see active and passive modes and a better UI added which does not need to to hit scan every 15 seconds and gives me a meaningful setting for scan directions which is not related to my camera position. |
Mandos2k
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 10:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:7) both combat and core probes are powerful active scanning devices and as such will show up on everyone's radar set regardless of its mode at extreme ranges (system wide).
MOAR CAREBEARING for EVERYONE!!!1 Amiright?
How am I supposed to catch w-space dwellers and low/null bears with this change? The changes you are suggesting make it impossible to get within your magical 1 to 2 AU range which grants a warpable location without combat probes and even if you could get within that range a deviation of up to 150km is far to great to be workable. At least with combat probes being flashy system wide warning beacons. Not to mention that a warp-in isn't enough, you also have to get them tackled and they are often 60km+ away from your warp-in nowadays anyway.
It's already difficult to catch people when they're paying attention. Your changes make it impossible.
I like your idea of a passive and active radar-thing, but this is not how it may work.
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Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 11:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mandos2k wrote:King Rothgar wrote:7) both combat and core probes are powerful active scanning devices and as such will show up on everyone's radar set regardless of its mode at extreme ranges (system wide). MOAR CAREBEARING for EVERYONE!!!1 Amiright? How am I supposed to catch w-space dwellers and low/null bears with this change? The changes you are suggesting make it impossible to get within your magical 1 to 2 AU range which grants a warpable location without combat probes and even if you could get within that range a deviation of up to 150km is far to great to be workable. At least with combat probes being flashy system wide warning beacons. Not to mention that a warp-in isn't enough, you also have to get them tackled and they are often 60km+ away from your warp-in nowadays anyway. It's already difficult to catch people when they're paying attention. Your changes make it impossible. I like your idea of a passive and active radar-thing, but this is not how it may work.
You should give him the benefit of a doubt. Dscan could really need improvements, and while your pointed out the flaws of his suggestion of actually implementation, itis unfair to assume that he did this on purpose and not just out of lack of thought.
Not every bad idea has some evil agenda behind it, some are just brainstorming ideas which may work or not. You pointed rightfull out that combat probes as big beacon on every scanner in the system is not a good idea for wormholes. Fair enough, I have to agree on that and I have the feeling that the topic starter will agree on this as well. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
199
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 11:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote: 1) Gives a heading for all ships and selected items within a 14au range while in active mode.
yup like it and moderately balanced with active mode drawbacks
King Rothgar wrote: 2) Provides only general data on long range targets (a stabber will show up simply as "cruiser") in both active and passive modes.
partially like this idea, would prefer that all contacts not on grid with you show up as their ship size class, after all when a ship goes off grid ur nav system looses them totally. (never understood how a dscan should get the exact type AND the name of the ship - some seriously unsecure electronic handshaking going on between ships! :S)
King Rothgar wrote: 3) Data increases in detail as range decreases, the exact range it would start giving specific ship types is debatable.
as seen above, am not a fan of, unless of course they end up on grid with you (then dscan adds info from overview systems)
King Rothgar wrote: 4) At short ranges in active mode, it can provide a range (I'm thinking 1-2au) thus granting a warpable point. This would be subject to substantial deviation however (you might land 150km from your target or right next to him). The deviation would go down the closer you get.
im fine with it estimating ranges, but definitely not allowing a warpable waypoint. tho some pro probers would say even that is encroching on their skills turf (and rightly so)
tbc... |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
199
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 11:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
....
King Rothgar wrote: 5) Radar can be used in active and passive modes. In active mode it alerts everyone of your presence within 2x your radar range (28au).
would be fine with reducing this and adding a deviation factor too for people warping to someone using active mode if the warpable point using active scan was not used.
King Rothgar wrote: 6) In passive mode, your radar doesn't reveal you but it has greatly reduced functionality. You can still see ships and objects using active radar at up to 28au but ships and objects in passive mode (or without radar) will only show up at 4au. You cannot get a range or warpable point regardless of how close you are in passive mode.
like the reduced range for picking up ships using this method as you're working on stray EM echo's as it were. i believe it shouldnt give a warpable point or a range but a deviated direction within say 30 degrees for example.
King Rothgar wrote: 7) both combat and core probes are powerful active scanning devices and as such will show up on everyone's radar set regardless of its mode at extreme ranges (system wide).
Yup i agree. even so when people are hiding theyre looking for scanner probes at 14au ranges typically, and generally when they see those they warp to a new safe waaay b4 the hunter gets a warpable hit.
King Rothgar wrote: Optional: IFF system allowing you to identify radar targets as friend or foe (gives standings/corp/alliance info only). This would be a short range feature.
for active mode only and yes only at short ranges. it also alerts the ship uve identified as foe that you're a foe too (failed electronic handshake) - should only show standings not alliance/corp etc... in my opinion.
hope u like my somewhat expansive critique on ur idea =) |
StuRyan
Assisted Homicide
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 12:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
while you at it stick a long range sensor on it too so that we can foil the attemps of lame blob tactics. We kill well or die laughing * UK PVP CORP RECRUITING * Please join AHREC |
King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
296
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 17:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Mandos2k wrote:King Rothgar wrote:7) both combat and core probes are powerful active scanning devices and as such will show up on everyone's radar set regardless of its mode at extreme ranges (system wide). MOAR CAREBEARING for EVERYONE!!!1 Amiright? How am I supposed to catch w-space dwellers and low/null bears with this change? The changes you are suggesting make it impossible to get within your magical 1 to 2 AU range which grants a warpable location without combat probes and even if you could get within that range a deviation of up to 150km is far to great to be workable. At least with combat probes being flashy system wide warning beacons. Not to mention that a warp-in isn't enough, you also have to get them tackled and they are often 60km+ away from your warp-in nowadays anyway. It's already difficult to catch people when they're paying attention. Your changes make it impossible. I like your idea of a passive and active radar-thing, but this is not how it may work. You should give him the benefit of a doubt. Dscan could really need improvements, and while your pointed out the flaws of his suggestion of actually implementation, itis unfair to assume that he did this on purpose and not just out of lack of thought. Not every bad idea has some evil agenda behind it, some are just brainstorming ideas which may work or not. You pointed rightfull out that combat probes as big beacon on every scanner in the system is not a good idea for wormholes. Fair enough, I have to agree on that and I have the feeling that the topic starter will agree on this as well.
Anyone paying even remote attention will see your combat probes long before you get a warp in under the current system. My proposed change doesn't change that. I'm not suggesting audio alerts or anything of the sort either, although they would be completely logical.
What I envision this as is simply the D-scanner Mk.II, nothing more. My original post was largely just brainstorming and I'd say it's been well received overall. So on that note, I think it should actually give range estimates in active mode at all ranges it can see at. But perhaps warpable points are too much. Or perhaps that should be retained but make it so that the deviation on them is so great that you have to get within an AU to have a useful one. If the latter, one workable approach might be to have warpable points at all ranges but for them to have huge deviation (on the order of 20% of your current range to target until under 1AU).
Once again, I'm just tossing out numbers and ideas and seeing what sticks. The Troll is trolling. |
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