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Sanic Xaqueter
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Posted - 2011.03.05 02:29:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sanic Xaqueter on 05/03/2011 02:32:45
Edited by: Sanic Xaqueter on 05/03/2011 02:29:59
I'm trying to find out how people manufacture and profit from making t2 ships. The one I have my eye on is the Hulk since I know it the best mining ship and their for has a huge demand.
I checked the market price being from 170-190m isk. I researched all the parts that go into it and checked the prices of all those parts. The total bill of materials is right around the same if not a bit more then to strait buy the hulk from the market.
I'm assuming it's because people produce the basic materials that reduces the price to make and sell it. So if that's true they are not making full profit some of it goes to buying other materials.
1) Is it physically possible (in game speaking) to produce all the more then a dozen goods it takes to make a hulk?
2) Is their any flow chart or some graphics website that display the final product and then pyramiding out all the required wares needed in order to get there.
3) I have my own small POS station, 9.2 standing with caldari navy, all the skill levels required to manufacture a hulk. Would I need more then one POS mining a moon in order to get the reactions needed for the root goods for the hulk?
4) What are the moons I need to mine in order to get the reactions I need?
5) What Type of planets do I need to setup a infrastructure on to produce the wares I need to create a hulk?
6) I wish this game provided more information in an easy to read/follow diagram for everything in the game. Not countless links and tabs I have to open to follow the path to create one item ~.~
7) How can I get BPC/BPO for hulks? I know about invention but what would it take exactly?
Thank you very much for your time -Sanic 
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.05 03:55:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Edited by: Sanic Xaqueter on 05/03/2011 02:32:45
Edited by: Sanic Xaqueter on 05/03/2011 02:29:59
I'm trying to find out how people manufacture and profit from making t2 ships. The one I have my eye on is the Hulk since I know it the best mining ship and their for has a huge demand.
I checked the market price being from 170-190m isk. I researched all the parts that go into it and checked the prices of all those parts. The total bill of materials is right around the same if not a bit more then to strait buy the hulk from the market.
I'm assuming it's because people produce the basic materials that reduces the price to make and sell it. So if that's true they are not making full profit some of it goes to buying other materials.
1) Is it physically possible (in game speaking) to produce all the more then a dozen goods it takes to make a hulk?
2) Is their any flow chart or some graphics website that display the final product and then pyramiding out all the required wares needed in order to get there.
3) I have my own small POS station, 9.2 standing with caldari navy, all the skill levels required to manufacture a hulk. Would I need more then one POS mining a moon in order to get the reactions needed for the root goods for the hulk?
4) What are the moons I need to mine in order to get the reactions I need?
5) What Type of planets do I need to setup a infrastructure on to produce the wares I need to create a hulk?
6) I wish this game provided more information in an easy to read/follow diagram for everything in the game. Not countless links and tabs I have to open to follow the path to create one item ~.~
7) How can I get BPC/BPO for hulks? I know about invention but what would it take exactly?
Thank you very much for your time -Sanic
The build process for some things is intentionally complex. You will need Production Efficiency trained to level 5 to get an acceptable income from most production in the game.
T2 production has 4 main type of materials. PI products, moon products, mineable minerals, and a T1 product.
PI products you could, in theory, collect yourself. I haven't personally broken down the production chain to determine what it would take.
Moon products require moon mining -> simple reactions -> complex reactions -> T2 components. A single T2 item may require moon mins that have been harvested from every corner of 0.0. It is not really feasible to make a single complex reaction solo, much less the entire process. Moon mining is a corp activity at the minimum, and ideally supported by an alliance.
The hard to obtain mineral in T2 production is Morphite, which is only found in 0.0, w-space, and reprocessing drone compounds. It will be practically impossible for the solo player to find a reliable source of morphite, short of buying it.
There isn't anything special about the T1 item, though it is probably a good idea to produce it on your own and count what you would have paid in profit margins to buy as adding to your T2 margins.
Other expenses include the BPC cost, which is created through invention. Invention is chance based, affected by skills, so it will take further research and experimentation to figure out the average cost to invent. The BPCs on contracts are probably a good baseline and would include a markup for the substantial effort people put in to it.
My experience in production is that profit margin percentage tends to depend on your ability to acquire goods and sell finished product (obviously) and the scarcity of the ability to produce those products (either through intensive skill training or a difficult manufacture process). The price and volume traded is based on consumer supply and demand. Don't expect the easiest part of the process to have the highest profit margin.
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Sanic Xaqueter
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Posted - 2011.03.05 06:05:00 -
[3]
I appreciate you spending the time to help me. A few question I had are still left hanging but I get the basic idea.
Basically your saying its hard/impossible for someone to solo make him self a t2 product from the very basic break down raw materials all the way to the final products needed and its more corp based production?
I do own and operate my own a small POS in .1 space if thats any consolation.
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I'thari
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.05 08:31:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Basically your saying its hard/impossible for someone to solo make him self a t2 product from the very basic break down raw materials all the way to the final products needed and its more corp based production?
You sure can (provided you have those raw materials), but it's far easier to just pay people to make it for you, especially with PI items - too much hauling and low storage space.
Only "Corp-based activity" here is getting all those raw materials in the first place, so if you want to do that you'll need several POSes making 0.0 moongoo (including high-end ones that no one will just leave without placng a POS on it). Basicly, if you don't have several high-ranked characters in 0.0 alliances Jita is the only option to get all raw materials you'll need.
Also, if building hulk (for example) won't get you more income than building parts for it - why bother with building hulk in hte first place? (provided parts are selling well enough). Same with reactions - not all are profitable enough to place a POS for them.
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Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
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Posted - 2011.03.05 08:39:00 -
[5]
Well first of all you make billions a month with single moon so you aren't just going to 0.0 and say "hey guys I figured I'd mine this moon here since there is no sov in this system".
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
gfldex
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Posted - 2011.03.05 11:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Basically your saying its hard/impossible for someone to solo make him self a t2 product from the very basic break down raw materials all the way to the final products needed and its more corp based production?
You can do it solo. If you don't sleep. To do complete tec 2 parts prod chains you are looking at 50-100 large POSes. That reactions only, no mining. If that sounds like you are not ment to do it solo, then yes, that's the idea behind it.
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Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
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Posted - 2011.03.05 16:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
If that sounds like you are not ment to do it solo, then yes, that's the idea behind it.
Isn't it quite bizarre how game designers would do something like this in a MMO...
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Quote:
EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.05 21:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Basically your saying its hard/impossible for someone to solo make him self a t2 product from the very basic break down raw materials all the way to the final products needed and its more corp based production?
Why bother with all the raw materials and countless reaction POSes (out of which only about half are actually noticeably profitable, if that much) when there's more than enough people doing that for you and advanced materials are plentiful on the market in Jita (where you'd have to go to buy most of the moon minerals anyway) ?
If you go up from the advanced materials directly instead of from the most basic of basic moon goos, then it's actually quite easy to manufacture everything you need for a T2 item as a solo player.
Well, that, and a bit of PI for the other components which are not derived from moongoo. But again, you could just buy those from the market too anyway.
The market really is wonderful - it enables you to focus ONLY on the most profitable section(s) of the whole thing and ignore the rest, because you can just buy it all cheaper (either really cheaper or at least opportunity-cost-wise cheaper) from the market instead, whatever it is you were missing or can't be arsed to do yourself.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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gfldex
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Posted - 2011.03.05 22:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T
Why bother with all the raw materials and countless reaction POSes
Because it makes you about 100BISK profit per month.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.05 22:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: Akita T
Why bother with all the raw materials and countless reaction POSes
Because it makes you about 100BISK profit per month.
Well, then, counterquestion, why run the reactions that yield 20 mil/month/Ltower when you can run several more of the ones paying 200 mil/month/Ltower ? 
Same rules apply as before - you stick to only the small part that's most profitable (or among the most profitable) right now, you DON'T try to do everything from start to finish yourself.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Sanic Xaqueter
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Posted - 2011.03.06 00:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: I'thari
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Basically your saying its hard/impossible for someone to solo make him self a t2 product from the very basic break down raw materials all the way to the final products needed and its more corp based production?
You sure can (provided you have those raw materials), but it's far easier to just pay people to make it for you, especially with PI items - too much hauling and low storage space.
Only "Corp-based activity" here is getting all those raw materials in the first place, so if you want to do that you'll need several POSes making 0.0 moongoo (including high-end ones that no one will just leave without placng a POS on it). Basicly, if you don't have several high-ranked characters in 0.0 alliances Jita is the only option to get all raw materials you'll need.
Also, if building hulk (for example) won't get you more income than building parts for it - why bother with building hulk in hte first place? (provided parts are selling well enough). Same with reactions - not all are profitable enough to place a POS for them.
Then how how do people make money from producing hulks, its not like they find them as a drop in space then they go sell them for profit.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.06 01:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Originally by: I'thari
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Basically your saying its hard/impossible for someone to solo make him self a t2 product from the very basic break down raw materials all the way to the final products needed and its more corp based production?
You sure can (provided you have those raw materials), but it's far easier to just pay people to make it for you, especially with PI items - too much hauling and low storage space.
Only "Corp-based activity" here is getting all those raw materials in the first place, so if you want to do that you'll need several POSes making 0.0 moongoo (including high-end ones that no one will just leave without placng a POS on it). Basicly, if you don't have several high-ranked characters in 0.0 alliances Jita is the only option to get all raw materials you'll need.
Also, if building hulk (for example) won't get you more income than building parts for it - why bother with building hulk in hte first place? (provided parts are selling well enough). Same with reactions - not all are profitable enough to place a POS for them.
Then how how do people make money from producing hulks, its not like they find them as a drop in space then they go sell them for profit.
Apparently they are better at setting up supply and distribution chains than you are. :P Manufacturing is a subset of competency in trade. i.e. manufacturing profitably assumes intelligent buying and selling.
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Sanic Xaqueter
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Posted - 2011.03.06 01:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Baneken
Well first of all you make billions a month with single moon so you aren't just going to 0.0 and say "hey guys I figured I'd mine this moon here since there is no sov in this system".
I don't see what you mean unless your talking special .0 moons that I'm not aware of. my station is a small on a .1 moon but I barley make more the ice it cost to fuel it...educate me?
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gfldex
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Posted - 2011.03.06 01:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T
Well, then, counterquestion, why run the reactions that yield 20 mil/month/Ltower when you can run several more of the ones paying 200 mil/month/Ltower ?
Because you would end up with overproduction.
Originally by: Akita T
Same rules apply as before - you stick to only the small part that's most profitable (or among the most profitable) right now, you DON'T try to do everything from start to finish yourself.
There are scaling effects. If you want to scale up an operation so it can maintain a whole corp your problems are logistics. Moving all that stuff can easyly be split up but getting anything into the right place gets tricky. If you have preset prod chains that never change, you can have a weekly cycles the whole chain from acquisition over prod and transport to sales.
If you have to adapt your prod for 100 towers each week you drive nuts. And if you run 100 towers you have to adapt your prod each week because you flood the market.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.06 02:18:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/03/2011 02:24:15
Originally by: gfldex
If you have to adapt your prod for 100 towers each week you drive nuts.
True. But then again, even HAVING 100 towers to manage will drive you nuts to begin with.
Heck, I'd probably go mental if I had 20 to manage on a regular basis, let alone 100.
And of the 100 bil ISK number you quoted as monthly profit, with an all-round reaction profile... that's closer to 1000 towers, not 100.
We're of course talking pure reaction profit, no extraction profit. That's far less annoying to accomplish by itself and should not be wrapped in together with reaction profit.
The entire game probably only has about 12k-15k reaction towers in it anyway (equivalent large ones, there might be more as actual count if quite a few simple reactors are spread across medium towers, for instance).
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Sanic Xaqueter
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Posted - 2011.03.06 03:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
If that sounds like you are not ment to do it solo, then yes, that's the idea behind it.
Isn't it quite bizarre how game designers would do something like this in a MMO...
Yea I get that, I just thought it would be cool to have my own small pos, my own PI, and get enough products out of it to manufacture some t2 goods is what I was trying to go for.
I dont understand why it takes 100 large POSes just for 1 t2 item tho
thats why I wish their was a pyramid chart someone made so you can see everything...
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Sanic Xaqueter
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Posted - 2011.03.06 03:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: Akita T
Why bother with all the raw materials and countless reaction POSes
Because it makes you about 100BISK profit per month.
how? are you talking one pos or 100s? small or larges ?
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Sanic Xaqueter
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Posted - 2011.03.06 03:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Apparently they are better at setting up supply and distribution chains than you are. :P Manufacturing is a subset of competency in trade. i.e. manufacturing profitably assumes intelligent buying and selling.
Thats why I'm here :) I want to gain knowledge to become intelligent at buying and selling and setting up supply chains
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.06 05:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Originally by: mkmin
Apparently they are better at setting up supply and distribution chains than you are. :P Manufacturing is a subset of competency in trade. i.e. manufacturing profitably assumes intelligent buying and selling.
Thats why I'm here :) I want to gain knowledge to become intelligent at buying and selling and setting up supply chains
Getting good at the buying and selling and supply chains is a matter of experience.
Yes, a T2 ship could require moon mins that would require dozens, maybe hundreds of POSes. You would need mins from almost every part of 0.0, including moons that people spend hundreds of billions of isk to claim and defend. All of those moon mins eventually get put through reactions. I have personally run 2 POSes both doing mining -> simple -> complex reactions. They cost 1 billion isk each to set up, hours to online all the modules, time spent babysitting the reactions and running logistics. It was so very not fun, and the payout wasn't near what I was hoping for. It would have been impossible for me to do the same for every possible mineral/simple/advanced reaction combination. Especially since a decent moon will require a capital fleet to evict the previous owners. Consider the moon mining/reaction process completely separate from the T2 production process, because as far as activities involved, they have nothing to do with eachother.
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Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
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Posted - 2011.03.06 08:05:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Baneken on 06/03/2011 08:05:57
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
Originally by: Baneken
Well first of all you make billions a month with single moon so you aren't just going to 0.0 and say "hey guys I figured I'd mine this moon here since there is no sov in this system".
I don't see what you mean unless your talking special .0 moons that I'm not aware of. my station is a small on a .1 moon but I barley make more the ice it cost to fuel it...educate me?
0.0 moons (technetium, dysprosium for two of the most profitable) are only in null sec, low sec moons are very very low end moons to begin with.
Also people in null have quite a hostile "not in my back yard or at least pay me rent biatch" -attitude towards anyone trying to put a sov near their borders even if the system isn't occupied.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.03.06 12:08:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 06/03/2011 12:09:36
Originally by: Baneken
0.0 moons (technetium, dysprosium for two of the most profitable) are only in null sec, low sec moons are very very low end moons to begin with.
Also people in null have quite a hostile "not in my back yard or at least pay me rent biatch" -attitude towards anyone trying to put a sov near their borders even if the system isn't occupied.
Confirming that there are no tech moons in lowsec. Also confirming every nullsec moon has tech, dyspro and neo on it and there are no tungsten or titanium moons in 0.0. And even those tungsten moons make 10 bilion trilion ISK every day by the virtue of me just staring at them.
Also, how would you feel about me coming over to your backyard and starting to drill for oil there?
Edit, woah, that might have a bit too much sarcasm for the newbie forum. No offense intended.
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Originally by: Sporked
EVE IS DYING RUN TO THE HILLS! WE MIGHT HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS MMO! THEY MIGHT SHOOT AT US WHILE WE ARE BUSY HOLDING HANDS AND FROLICKING! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.06 14:39:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
...
7) How can I get BPC/BPO for hulks? I know about invention but what would it take exactly?
...
Other than marked up items from other players on the market ...
The NPC Corporation - ORE - is the source of Covetor BPO's. Look up ORE in your people and places, do a show info and then look at what they sell and where they sell it under their Market Activity Tab. Note their location's system security levels and the route to get in and out of there.
Hulk BPC's are obtained from Copying Covetor BPO's into Covetor BPC's and then doing Invention on them.
You got some good replies here but in the future you might find the Science and Industry forum more appropriate for such questions as T2 production as ... there probably aren't a lot of new people making T2 items.
*shrug*
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Sanic Xaqueter
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Posted - 2011.03.08 04:17:00 -
[23]
yes and while Im not a noob I get ALOT more feed back posting here then anywhere else.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to provide me with valuable information. :)
I think If I really want to do this Ill need a covetor BPO, and also a BPO for the Oscillator Capacitor Unit since thats the one that cost close to 100mill to buy normally :/
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Lutz Major
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Posted - 2011.03.08 06:01:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lutz Major on 08/03/2011 06:05:58
Originally by: Sanic Xaqueter
...Oscillator Capacitor Unit since thats the one that cost close to 100mill to buy normally :/
... and I wondered since your OP, why the heck you can't make a profit in Hulk production ...
1200x Oscillator Capacitor Unit _ ISK 40k = 48 millions
Edit: sorry, that's 1600 units on a ME -3, so 64 millions ...
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Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2011.03.08 12:12:00 -
[25]
I would highly advise making your own flowchart for any t2 invention/production scheme. Chalk on a primered wall works perfectly well, and makes the inevitable eventual conversion to a spreadsheet much easier if you've looked everything up manually once.
You may want to start by buying someone else's BPCs off of contracts to establish that you're at or near profitability before actually buying a BPO and making t2 BPCs yourself using research. I mainly recommend this because the ORE BPOs are ******edly expensive.
(I'm not familiar with the hulk specifically, but I do know that you often need alts and more than one POS to get all of your component materials together for T2 materials production. Not necessarily different account alts, just alts to get more planets producing and such.)
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If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
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