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Marenteius
Caldari
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.01.26 17:30:00 -
[1]
I imagine some of you have seen me around. I know, i'm young by the standards of capsuleers, but i'd like to think i've contributed to this great summit. And now i'd like to make a contribution of an inspirational quote that i think really defines us capsuleers and the reason we will defeat Sansha or relegate him to target practice before long. (the following is an excerpt from a speech i discovered in an ancient databank in deadspace near the eden wormhole.)
People...are NOT created equal! Some are born swifter afoot, some with greater beauty, some are born into poverty and others born sick and feeble. Both in birth and upbringing, in sheer scope of ability every human is inherently different; Yes that is why people discriminate against one another, which is why there is struggle, competition and the unfaltering march of progress. Inequality is not wrong, equality is."
hope you all got as much out of this as i did!!
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Who are you?
What do you want?
Where are you going?
Why are you here? |
GIGAR
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.26 18:05:00 -
[2]
Sorry, all I got from that was:
"I'm a greedy bastard and I like that people live in poverty."
People like you are the sole reason conflicts exist.
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"I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy |
Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 18:24:00 -
[3]
Originally by: GIGAR
Sorry, all I got from that was:
"I'm a greedy bastard and I like that people live in poverty."
People like you are the sole reason conflicts exist.
You are also a rich guy whose lot in life is envied by the planet-bound.
Two Shots
Goonwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Official Recruiting Officer |
GIGAR
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.26 18:32:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: GIGAR
Sorry, all I got from that was:
"I'm a greedy bastard and I like that people live in poverty."
People like you are the sole reason conflicts exist.
You are also a rich guy whose lot in life is envied by the planet-bound.
True, and there's nothing I can do about it.
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"I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy |
Anabella Rella
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.01.26 19:03:00 -
[5]
Sorry pilot but this sounds way too much like the kinds of arguments that the Amarr used to justify their reclaiming or of the Blooders/Sabik for their acts of carnage. I would rebut that of course we're not all equal in abilities, looks, mentality or the like, but we all are equal in that we should be afforded certain rights and a bit of dignity just by the virtue of being born as men and not cattle.
At any rate, welcome to the IGS and to the world of the capsuleer.
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ValentinaDLM
Minmatar
Zaratha Zarati
Shaktipat Revelators
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Posted - 2011.01.26 19:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: GIGAR
Sorry, all I got from that was:
"I'm a greedy bastard and I like that people live in poverty."
People like you are the sole reason conflicts exist.
Thats about what I got from it too.
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Calathea Sata
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Posted - 2011.01.26 19:26:00 -
[7]
An ancient databank in deadspace near the Eden wormhole, you mean the EVE gate? What else is in the databank? Does it say anything else? Perhaps the scientific value of such a discovery has much more implications that the messages itself; perhaps there are thousands more of similar kinds of teachings buried in there, perhaps you should publish them for the sake of mankind!
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Medarr
Amarr
ZeroSec
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Posted - 2011.01.26 20:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ValentinaDLM
Originally by: GIGAR
Sorry, all I got from that was:
"I'm a greedy bastard and I like that people live in poverty."
People like you are the sole reason conflicts exist.
Thats about what I got from it too.
says the sansha loyalist partly responcible for the current universe wide conflict...
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Sebastien Starstrider
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.26 21:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Medarr
Originally by: ValentinaDLM
Originally by: GIGAR
Sorry, all I got from that was:
"I'm a greedy bastard and I like that people live in poverty."
People like you are the sole reason conflicts exist.
Thats about what I got from it too.
says the sansha loyalist partly responcible for the current universe wide conflict...
I wouldn't necessarily use this as an argument to counter the refutation made against the original poster's supposedly 'inspirational quote'. Rather, I'd point out the fact that she's a Sansha Loyalist whom seems to have more sense of a human's worth than a non-loyalist does, which is pathetic. If anything, the original poster should strive to at least have the same moral standards as a Sansha Loyalist, which certainly can't be too much to ask.
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Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.26 21:37:00 -
[10]
I would say inequality isn't a desired outcome, but simply a natural by-product when you give people the ability to better themselves.
We are all born capsuleers, with equal opportunities and abilities to make what we want of ourselves. But we are not all equal at the end. Nor would I think any attempt to make us equal to be of good counsel.
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Dilaro thagriin
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Posted - 2011.01.26 22:04:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dilaro thagriin on 26/01/2011 22:04:53
You know, i think i understand the sentiment behind the supposed ancient quote.
While it is true that some of us are created with certain traits that may exceed the norm, be they situational, physical or mental. it's part of life.
I personally do not think that this means that those who exhibit such traits have more right to exist as a free thinking individual.
I also understand the analogy pilot Marenteius was attempting to make.
apart from a select few, all evidence points to the fact that within nation, no-one seems to exhibit any traits that seem exceptional, all have the same, it is those who are free, and choose to fight against Nation who do, we are a divergent group, with differences, and greivances, alliances, friendships, and all manner of quirks that make us all unique.
no two of us, barring identical siblings, are exactly the same, in some ways, many of us are exceptional at certain tasks, while at others we are average.
perhaps if each of us considers this, in situations you are prepared for, and have undergone training to excel at, you may well have an unequal chance of success to that of your foe.
is this wrong? no, divergence is a good thing, it may cause differences, and even conflict, but it also causes progress.
without these things, humanity would stagnate, the status quo would be kept, if it was efficient, while progress would falter. i'm reminded of an old quote i saw in a physics book once, 'Need is the mother of all creation'
oh, i'm ranting again.... i'll finish up then...
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Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.01.27 00:49:00 -
[12]
Finding some "anchient quote" that you feel absolves those in positions of power or privelage from any responsibility for stepping on those that are not in such positions, in fact, does not absolve them (or you, I suspect) from anything.
Those at the bottom have only one way to go...and so do those at the top, eh?
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Vikarion
Caldari
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.01.27 03:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Marenteius
People...are NOT created equal! Some are born swifter afoot, some with greater beauty, some are born into poverty and others born sick and feeble. Both in birth and upbringing, in sheer scope of ability every human is inherently different; Yes that is why people discriminate against one another, which is why there is struggle, competition and the unfaltering march of progress. Inequality is not wrong, equality is."
This highlights a difference of thought: some believe in autocracy and nobility (the Amarr Empire), some believe in equality of outcome, and some believe in equality of opportunity (i.e., the State).
Equality of opportunity leads to stagnation: when we mandate that all experience the same rewards for unequal effort and talent, we reward those who contribute nothing to a society, and take from those who do the most. Autocracy rarely rewards anything but accident of birth and luck.
Equality of opportunity - meritocracy - rewards those who possess the skills and talent to most benefit others. Do you have the skill, drive, and talent to be a brain surgeon? Then you should be rewarded for doing so, in accordance with how much the society needs additional brain surgeons. This is determined by the mechanisms of prices in a capitalist society, rewarding any occupation to the degree that the society needs it. For such roles as corporate CEO or implant surgeon, need may be high while capable candidates are few. For roles such as janitor, the supply may exceed the need. Humans are not, whatever may be wished, equal in capabilities and drive, and so there will always be those who are less useful to the whole than others.
The combination of a meritocratic and capitalist society creates a useful fusion that elevates and rewards those who can supply the most critical needs (leadership, technological expertise, etc.) and incentivizes people to fill occupations where there is societal need, while disincentivizing work in occupations where supply exceeds demand.
Those who would reward all men equally would destroy all progress and incentive to serve society in the name of "fairness". For the Caldari, the good of the whole comes before the desire of the one.
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Marenteius
Caldari
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.01.27 04:55:00 -
[14]
I'm happy to see that my quote has gotten some discussion. I am interested in both sides of the viewpoints involved, and am happy to see such lively debate. I am a bit dissapointed that the majority of the people rebuking me (and i have noticed they are mostly Matari... go figure) seem unwilling or unable to give any real reasons for their disagreement other than a tacit "Your a heartless basterd Marenteius!" Still, i guess as Capsuleers, beings far above the planetbound, you have a right to an opinion in that way...
Originally by: Calathea Sata
An ancient databank in deadspace near the Eden wormhole, you mean the EVE gate? What else is in the databank? Does it say anything else? Perhaps the scientific value of such a discovery has much more implications that the messages itself; perhaps there are thousands more of similar kinds of teachings buried in there, perhaps you should publish them for the sake of mankind!
Thank you for the correction on the name of the EVE gate Calathea. As i said, i'm new around here, and was mostly concerned with staying the hell away from the unstable rift in space than what its name is. The databank did have some other information on it, however most of it seems to be information on a political situation of the time, which i have to imagine predates the closing of the gate by a long time. I did dig up one quote i found interesting, if only for its oddness: "True justice is stabbing your best friend with a beautiful sword and then assuming his identity." Puzzle that one out.
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Who are you?
What do you want?
Where are you going?
Why are you here? |
Stitcher
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.27 11:26:00 -
[15]
Originally by: GIGAR
Originally by: Two Shots
You are also a rich guy whose lot in life is envied by the planet-bound.
True, and there's nothing I can do about it.
Wait, what?
so, quitting, becoming a monk and giving all of your wealth to charity isn't an option then?
or do you mean "I'm too lazy"?
Conflict is growth. Conflict is strength. The engine that has always driven the progress of our species has been competition - conflict - between ideals, between technologies, between philosophies, products, people, nations, ethics, brand names... you name it. The Gallente invent the battleship, the Caldari invent the fighter, the Gallente respond with the drone, the Caldari create the frigate.
Life is fair, and fair does not mean that everyone gets the same equal chances, the same good fortune and the same breaks. it means that some people fly while others fall. It means that some are wealthy while others are poor.
Sansha's folly is that he tries to make everybody equal under himself. All this achieves is stagnation and slow death. Other people make the mistake of embracing this philosophy too hard, defining life solely as a struggle to compete with others, treating everyone as a nemesis.
The key, as in basically everything else, is to find a balanced middle ground where you provide just enough support to give those who have the will to succeed the opportunity. Rainforests only grow in fertile soil after all, but they wouldn't be rainforests if everyone cut the trees down for being "unequal" to the shrubs and vines of the forest floor.
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Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2011.01.27 12:56:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 27/01/2011 13:01:18
We may not be born equal.
But we deserve to live as equals, this is our right as humans. And this is what we are fighting for if I may cite the Federal Investigation Agency credo:
FREEDOM
EGALITY
JUSTICE
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FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Vikarion
Caldari
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:11:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Vikarion on 27/01/2011 13:11:22
Originally by: Alica Wildfire
We may not be born equal.
But we deserve to live as equals, this is our right as humans. And this is what we are fighting for if I may cite the Federal Investigation Agency credo:
FREEDOM
EGALITY
JUSTICE
Really? So the man who refuses to work deserves the same reward as a man who works 16 hours a day? The man who sweeps floors deserves the same compensation as the man who risks his life building a station in vacuum?
Pretty words can make one sound noble, but your ideals are not compatible. If you will have egality, you can not have justice, for justice is to render what is due to a person. If you will have freedom, you cannot have egality, for to render every man equal reward can only be done by the use of force. To enforce egality is to make every man a slave.
If you do not reward men according to their own talents, skills, and drives, they will not exercise them. Oh, a few good-hearted ones may, but as for the majority, why should they work harder and learn more than those who do not? The only way to create an incentive to do so is to force them, by whip, by gun, and by concentration camp.
How you, an avowed "freedom" fighter, can hold an ideal that would enslave your people once again, is beyond me.
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Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Marenteius
I imagine some of you have seen me around. I know, i'm young by the standards of capsuleers, but i'd like to think i've contributed to this great summit. And now i'd like to make a contribution of an inspirational quote that i think really defines us capsuleers and the reason we will defeat Sansha or relegate him to target practice before long. (the following is an excerpt from a speech i discovered in an ancient databank in deadspace near the eden wormhole.)
People...are NOT created equal! Some are born swifter afoot, some with greater beauty, some are born into poverty and others born sick and feeble. Both in birth and upbringing, in sheer scope of ability every human is inherently different; Yes that is why people discriminate against one another, which is why there is struggle, competition and the unfaltering march of progress. Inequality is not wrong, equality is."
hope you all got as much out of this as i did!!
Sounds like an excuse to act like an ass to me.
So what you are saying is it's alright to trample the people beneath you and not to try to improve the lot of the community?
Remember, there is always a bigger fish! Or a bigger school of fish!
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:45:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 27/01/2011 13:49:14
Originally by: Vikarion
Really? So the man who refuses to work deserves the same reward as a man who works 16 hours a day? The man who sweeps floors deserves the same compensation as the man who risks his life building a station in vacuum?
What kind of stupid interpretation of egality is that?
I say if a man builds something he should be rewarded at the other one that builds the same. Not paid better or worse cause of race, size, gender or believes. A slave is never paid at all. Not to speak of paid equal.
What you distort egality to is nothing but useful for propaganda against it. It's just stupid rhetoric. And if I say stupid rhetoric I mean, if you have to be rethorical, could you please be so kind and be a bit smarter with your rhetorics? So it's more fun to shatter it.
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FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Vikarion
Caldari
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:56:00 -
[20]
I suggest you look up the definition of egality. To enforce egality, as opposed to equal opportunity, means to remove difference, to eliminate the rich, the talented, and capable from positions better than those who do not possess such advantages.
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 27/01/2011 14:33:47
Vikarion, with all respect. You are just twisting words, pointing to meaningless definitions of these words. This is no basis for a serious dispute. No not even for a serious smile.
You know what the word egality means. Don't make yourself more stupid than you are.
Its general premise is that people should be treated as equals on certain dimensions such as religion, politics, economics, social status, and culture. Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or moral status.
This is the definition of common library. If you want to distort and mock about the word do that if you like. But don't expect me to answer on that anymore.
If you think that our cause is wrong and people should not be equal before the law and before society then come up with something better than twisting words like an Amarrian.
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FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Benjamin Shepherd
Caldari
Intaki Liberation Front
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:57:00 -
[22]
Explain to me again how this relates to Kuvekei the madman? I don't think yet another debate about economic systems is going to save the galaxy from cybernetic slaves.
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Vikarion
Caldari
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.01.27 15:11:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Vikarion on 27/01/2011 15:12:25
Alica, I linked a dictionary. If your definition is different, fine, but in that case you need to define your terms before discussion. The definition of egality is not the same as equality, just as the definition of "commune" is different than that of "communism".
But all of this is beside the point. You are not addressing the main argument, which is: do you or do you not support attempts to remove the natural advantages of some (race/gender/size/intelligence) or not? And if so, how do you intend to do so without it negatively affecting the society?
It matters not how we label it. There is a difference between letting all people compete, and trying to ensure that all competitions end with everyone winning.
The State is founded upon such principles as equality before the law and meritocratic advancement. But neither of those mean equality in a society. A society may look down on some as lesser, or place others on pedestals, but a government cannot mandate what people think - well, not without implants, at any rate. And capitalism will reward people unequally, based on how the people collectively value the output of a person.
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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2011.01.27 16:53:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 27/01/2011 16:57:43
Originally by: Vikarion
Edited by: Vikarion on 27/01/2011 15:12:25
do you or do you not support attempts to remove the natural advantages of some (race/gender/size/intelligence) or not? And if so, how do you intend to do so without it negatively affecting the society?
People are not equal in mind, in body and in capabilities. And I do not support egalitarianism, if you mean that. Nature is about competition and this competition should always happen. Without competition there is no evolution for only in the competition the survival of the fittest will show.
But I support freedom as freedom of competition. If structures of society destroy this freedom the unfit will gain more and more power. It is a static system that I do not support and I think this static "Empire" is wrong. It is exactly the opposite of what I want and what I support.
But everybody -even the unfit- must still have a chance to compete. In an unfree society he does not get this chance. And this is what we Minmatar are fighting for: freedom. We do not claim to be equal in size or strength or intelligence. Not inferior not superior. We just demand our chance to proof ourselves.
The egalitarianism is also the opposite of my basic political point of view, which if you know me, should be clearly an anarchist. Means the maximum of personal freedom possible without creating a world of power, where just the most powerful will be king.
This is also a twisted way to see freedom.
There have been a lot of rebellions in history. Some of them were successful like the Minmatar. Some failed. But never succeeded a rebellion that was betraying their basic demand: egality.
We demand of the Empire to release the slaves. Not just the Matari slaves but all slaves. We would never take slaves of our own because with this we would accept that slavery is okay, as long as we ourselves are not at the ugly end of it.
That I mean with betraying the base of demand.
When you deal with me on market or on the battlefield, I will always try to follow my personal code of honor. Which is not depending if you are keeping up the same standards or not.
But don't take me wrong. I'm able and willing to use tricks, to do a lot of things other people won't do. Because I give a damn about what people think of me and my honor. Honor is a very personal thing. The only one that has to face it is myself. It's no public affair. Public honor is without meaning.
But to follow my own laws and ethics is something I take care of very much. Sometimes I fail. And I regret when I do. Because I'm not a perfect being and don't claim to be. I just try to be the best Alica Wildfire I can be. And that I won't betray too.
More can not be asked for, I think.
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FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Marenteius
Caldari
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.01.27 19:07:00 -
[25]
nice speech Alicia. While i don't agree entirely, i can see many of your points. The heart of the quote lies in Competition being the guiding star of man, and you seem to hold that view to some extent. Really, the nicest thing about your reply is that a Matari actually took the time to give a real answer to the question inherent in this discussion, rather than just condemning it out of hand.
On another note, thanks for the support Vikarion! Know ya havn't seen me in fleet ops, but hopefully that will be changing very soon!
--------------
Who are you?
What do you want?
Where are you going?
Why are you here? |
Vikarion
Caldari
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.01.28 00:35:00 -
[26]
Thank you for your kind words, Marenteius.
Alica, I largely agree, so apparently we have merely conflicted upon different understandings of a term, which is understandable. I am no anarchist - I do believe that there is place for government in the restriction of crime and the defense of the state, but I - and the Caldari people, given our system of government - largely hold to a view of government as a defender against foreign aggression and an agent of law.
This, of course, does not prevent us from having a very collective view of society. That is to say, we do not view ourselves solely as individuals, but also as members of a greater whole. "All together, now!" could be considered a stereotypical model. Or perhaps it is a "more is better" ideal: one Caldari can do much, so many Caldari can do far more. But the ultimate expression of it might be as such: an individual Caldari is not alone in the universe, but possesses responsibilities. As a Matari to their tribe, so we to our family, corporation, and State.
It is very much true that the Caldari and the Minmatar have more in common with each other than either do with the Gallente or the Amarr. It is a pity that circumstance and chance have placed us on opposite sides of this war.
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Maximum Kiely
Caldari
Kiely and Son Salvage
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Posted - 2011.01.31 19:29:00 -
[27]
What am I to think of a capsuleer who is unable to discern between "equal" and "alike"?
Let me assure you Marenteius, despite your charming quote from some clever bigot above, the spirit (if you're a religious man) or energy (if you prefer science) within us all is equal.
Now based out of Molden Heath! - Contact Maximum Kiely |
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