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FeralShadow RipStar Mining Industries United Front Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.23 04:16:00 - [91] I didn't read all the posts but as far as I'm concerned, I have a core group of pilots I play with and will never EVER betray. I can scam jita people out of billions, clean out corps, steal alliances, whatever. But those few friends I will never betray. What is a game without a few friends you can trust? It's boring.
Foxgguy2001 Gallente Second Hand Lions Redneck Rage	Posted - 2011.01.23 05:39:00 - [92] Originally by: Mirchuska TL;DR - Morality is subjective at the best of times, as long as the game is played within the rules/EULA the range of "valid" morals in the game are much greater than the real world. Just because you think something is immoral or otherwise, doesn't mean someone else has to and neither of you are wrong. I don't know where you get the notion that morality is subjective... Then extend this in a manner to suggest that while in-game piracy is moral because you are operating within the bindings of the EULA is faulty logic`again, based on your notion that morality is subjective. Piracy is an immoral act. Taking the possessions of another without cause or permission cannot be skewed into the realm of moral behavior. Just because another may ffeelF it is, does not make it correct`as it is often their motives, greed, and rationalizing their actions that permits them to commit such immoral acts. Just because the person commit such acts is unable to have an unbiased view of the moral landscape does not mean that those moral truths do not exist. To say that right and wrong are just individual battles to be fought along some sliding scale that varies wildly from person to person sounds, well` incorrect, to say the least.
Blood Fart	Posted - 2011.01.23 11:06:00 - [93] Is it immoral to buy one of every property on the monopolly board then ask for crazy amounts of money for one while laughing at your buddy because he sucks? Would it be immoral to just shake your head and make low grunting noises after you realize your friend just moved his bishop into the worst spot possible and is going to be checkmated in 2 turns? When I sit with a group of guys at a poker table am I wrong to talk sh!t all night about Joe's ugly wife and Mike's habit of going home without even his watch left to gamble? I think if you answer "yes" to any of those you are: A: At least a little friuty B: Weird in that "I have a lot of friends on facebook" kind of way C: Joe's wife D: Crappy at any game you play against another person F: All of the above
Foxgguy2001 Gallente Second Hand Lions Redneck Rage	Posted - 2011.01.23 15:31:00 - [94] Edited by: Foxgguy2001 on 23/01/2011 15:32:56 Originally by: Blood Fart Is it immoral to buy one of every property on the monopolly board then ask for crazy amounts of money for one while laughing at your buddy because he sucks? Your reasoning here makes it plainly evident that yes, it is immoral. Would it be immoral to just shake your head and make low grunting noises after you realize your friend just moved his bishop into the worst spot possible and is going to be checkmated in 2 turns? No, though I might question your chess-playing habits... When I sit with a group of guys at a poker table am I wrong to talk sh!t all night about Joe's ugly wife and Mike's habit of going home without even his watch left to gamble? Yes, making fun of Joe's wife in an attempt to throw him off his game is still immoral. Allowing Mike to go home yet again after losing all of his money and a few personal possessions without speaking to him about his gambling problem certainly is not in the best interest of your 'friend'...certainly there are more moral ways in which you could handle this. I believe your examples, and your attempted insults speak more about you, then you intend it to speak toward those who might disagree.
Zey Nadar Gallente Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective	Posted - 2011.01.23 16:33:00 - [95] Edited by: Zey Nadar on 23/01/2011 16:34:13 Originally by: Foxgguy2001 Originally by: Mirchuska I don't know where you get the notion that morality is subjective... Morality is subjective. Proof of this can be acquired simply on the basis that peoples view of what is moral is different. People who post in this thread have different notions of morality, therefore morality is subjective. You are merely preaching that your own view is correct one. Like most everyone else who has ever lived.
Ronald Raygunn	Posted - 2011.01.23 17:32:00 - [96] For most people who play this game, there is no line, due to one thing; anonymity. There are no real life consequences for there actions, and since it is a game, the Me Rule comes into play in full force here. Granted, most of the people on this forum are internet tough-guys, who enjoy the power they have in game because it compensates for their relative weakness and lack of control in the real world. No offense, but we know this is a fact. Whether or not you choose to accept it doesn't change the reality of it. I recently had an opportunity with a friend to possibly make billions in isk through less than honorable means. Yeah, we thought about it, but you know something? Friendship and respect played a big role in choosing to take the morally high path. I guess that's where the line is drawn...respect for another person and recognizing both their point of view and the work they have done to achieve the place they have in-game. Sure, could have cleaned them out and went on, but my conscience would have been bugging me for a very long time about it. In reference to the internet tough-guys, I'm willing to bet most of them would feel the same way. The talk a big game in the forums to gain the respect and friendship of their peers, where there is none to be gained. They might pull off the heist, and brag in C&P about it, but somewhere in there, they are troubled by it but would never admit it here. Concurrently, how many people who do that sort of stuff in-game brag about it to real-life friends and co-workers? I would wager not many because (aside from the stigma of MMO gaming) once these acquaintances learned that these were real people that were being scammed and betrayed, they would incidentally lose trust in you as a friend or co-worker. After all, it may be just a game, but real people are affected by actions such as these, and QQ that 'it's just a game' in order to win their support is the only real defense they can muster against such immoral and irreprehensible behavior. Ultimately, I really don't care if it happens or not, I isolate myself from these rest of the Eve Universe so I don't have to deal with other people and their actions. Truthfully, I believe that morality in and of itself is a faulty, fallible mechanism created by humans to maintain an appearance of civilization. But just cause I think like that doesn't mean that others do, nor does it mean I don't have a Code of Conduct that I base my life by. But I recognize that most players will do whatever they can in-game, up to and including raping every member of their family if it got them ahead. That's the nature of the game.
Foxgguy2001 Gallente Second Hand Lions Redneck Rage	Posted - 2011.01.23 19:25:00 - [97] Originally by: Zey Nadar Edited by: Zey Nadar on 23/01/2011 16:34:13 Originally by: Foxgguy2001 Originally by: Mirchuska I don't know where you get the notion that morality is subjective... Morality is subjective. Proof of this can be acquired simply on the basis that peoples view of what is moral is different. People who post in this thread have different notions of morality, therefore morality is subjective. You are merely preaching that your own view is correct one. Like most everyone else who has ever lived. No I'm simply saying that moral right and wrong exist independent of the individualFs motives or circumstances and that in today's connected world we are in a better position than ever to have the ability to rationally deduce whether an action is moral or immoral. What you are in effect stating is that, if you were to be ransomed at a gate, or have your car stolen by a thief... 'wrong or immoral' applies only to you as the victim, where-as it does not apply in the same manner to the pirate or thief becuase they simply may not subscribe to your beliefs of what is right and wrong.
Ar Marr	Posted - 2011.01.23 23:06:00 - [98] On the off-chance that this is not a very provocative and successful attempt at trolling, here's what I think... Do you believe in morals because you dislike how you feel when you violate them? (Or when you imagine yourself violating them.) Or, do you believe in morals because you dislike the way it makes you feel when you are the victim? In the first case, your beliefs seem to arise out of a true desire for non-hurtful actions. In the second, they seem to be a fear response. Fear for yourself, your possessions, your ego, etc. Back when I went through this conundrum, I realized that I was one of the latter people. I had been taken advantage of (I believe some poster in this thread said, rather eloquently, something about losing his anal virginity), and I didn't want it to happen again. So I adopted the stance that being "unethical or immoral" was wrong. In the hopes, ofc, that my adoption of the golden rule would influence other people to do the same. This ideology didn't have its intended effect, because people didn't care how I felt about it. They just cared about their own ideology. This lead to frustration on my part, and eventually, I said "f$&^ it!" I decided that if someone was gonna do something unethical, it might as well be me. So, I did a couple of...unethical...things. Nothing as bad as some. But definitely violations of my original moral code. Fortunately (or unfortunately, as you might think), I realized that this didn't make me feel better either. And the thought that I was adding to the frustration of other players didn't make me feel better (alright, it did at first, but I eventually had to be honest with myself that it wasn't really helping). So, I had to re-examine my motivations. No player can force another to conform to their own sense of right and wrong. Attempting to do so will just result in the first player's frustration. If you hinge your own happiness on how successful you are at manipulating other people, you are gonna be very unhappy in your life. All you can do is stand by your own principles. Not because you are afraid, but because the principles generally agreed upon to be "right", lead to the greatest number of people having a good time. As a parting quote (and because I don't believe I have quite reached my alloted quota of cheese on this post), just remember Polonius' advice to his son: This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man. Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!
Zantei	Posted - 2011.01.24 00:24:00 - [99] Very interesting topic, it's something I've thought a lot about in the past. I've been with Eve for a long time and I've seen what the lowest end of the spectrum looks like. I accept eve for what it is, an exercise in survival. I've attempted to grief people but I've always felt as though it's fighting against my nature. There's no way to tell how emotionally invested someone is during a particular encounter and, unless it's within the "rules of war", I tend to steer clear. I'm not attacking anyone when I say that they lack the ability to comprehend the variables involved with associated worth. A lot of griefers, in this environment, reflect the same attitudes that have capped the mental evolution of humanity in the real world for generations. The only difference is that, in Eve, the consequences aren't quite so catastrophic and the deviation is limited to that environment. There's a very famous YouTube video of a teamspeak discussion between some fellow who was killed low sec space and "Tank CEO"' (http://tinyurl.com/5vpztbp). At the end of the video you can hear that the one who did the killing is audibly upset at not having received an apology from the person he podded. It's because although he initially did the deed without a guilty conscience, he has been made to feel insecure due to the series of events he has put in motion. Eve is an outlet for all sorts of problems as well as a medium through which we can express ourselves. The greatest benefit it has provided me with is the boost in confidence I receive when I maintain my own convictions. I'm able to prove to myself that I can "live" without lowering my level to that of the worst individuals. It's a very Buddhist way if thinking, in that when you walk along the ground you need to be mindful that there is another world beneath your feet. You can easily destroy the hard work of insects and if you are mindful of their existence then it is only natural to acknowledge it by attempting to maintain the balance of things. That's not what Eve is about however. The true role-players are the ones who do the dirty deeds, their Eve personas are not indicative of how they are in real life. If people say that it's only a game, then of course they're right. It just doesn't mean anything as a declaration. What would be a better way to respond to the discussion might involve discussing what a game actually is. A game cannot be separate from real life, ludology teaches us this quite clearly. Everything we do has an impact on something or someone. The message I'd leave readers with is "don't invest your finite emotional energy into something with so limited a return as Eve provides.". Not unless you're looking for a real adventure and that takes more balls than the C&P forum gives credit for. God I love this game.
Drunken Monk3y	Posted - 2011.01.24 01:19:00 - [100] Originally by: Toilarmius Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward What are your thoughts about this? Choose the one that doesn't belong: Eve Online Scamming Moral Behavior Internet Spaceshipzzz Game this is a trick question, get him!!

Chuckles McLaughy	Posted - 2011.01.24 02:04:00 - [101] In R/L I found a wallet on the street containing $230.00. Nobody saw me pick the wallet up. Nobody would have known if I had kept it or not. I returned the wallet to the owner, with every dollar intact, AND refused a reward for doing so. In Game I have lied, stolen, ganked etc. The difference here is, in life, my PERSONAL morals come into play, and even though I could have walked away with $230.00 clear and nobody would have known. My morals said do otherwise. In game, my GAME morals come into play and are within the games context. I'll do what needs doing depending on the situation. I wouldn't hesitate to steal from you, lie to get ahead, gank your ship or whatever. My Game morals are different than my R/L morals. If you are unable to understand how they can be different then you should unplug and not return to online games, forums or activities.
Jason Travers Space 1999	Posted - 2011.01.24 02:19:00 - [102] Well to me the answer is real simple. People are people therefor never ever ever trust anyone you meet in EVE. There are very few people in eve I trust and that is because I know them personally and have for a long time, also I know where they live and they know me. Mommy that mean ole bear just dukied in my sandbox. :(
Alemana Hockeystick	Posted - 2011.01.24 03:57:00 - [103] The only way morality can have any meaning in the game play (I am not talking about personal satisfaction or warm fuzzy here) is if it translated into a competitive advantage, and it certainly is possible. An example is if you found a group of players who are moral to each other and cooperated. Since trust is there, you can cut effort in implementing and sustaining security policies. You can take more risk as a group. Things can happen more quickly among the group since you don't have to put in checks and balances. I have seen groups like this, and they could accomplish a lot more than a group of individual-minded sharks. EvE is designed so that a group of players can be more effective than the sum of individuals. You can force and manage people to act for the benefit of the group, but that effort is a huge overhead. It's much more effective to have a trusting group that does not need constant management. A group of buddies with tight bond is very powerful in RL, and also in EvE. I think this is only merit of morality that most players can understand.
Cretara LeGalet	Posted - 2011.01.24 04:04:00 - [104] I always wondered if the people in Eve who scam others, cheat others, take advantage of other players (especially the ones they befriend), and generally behave badly in game do so because they feel they have been treated badly in real life. Now I am not talking about 0.0 PvP, ganking players at a gate camp in low sec, or doing other things that are within the bounds of "the game." I am concerned with those people who sit in Jita and other trade hubs spamming local with their scams and rip-offs, those players who purposefully get to know another player, befriend that player, then stab them in the back when they fully gain their trust. And other things that people would consider morally wrong in real life. A lot of you have stated "it is just a game", or "As long as it is within the EULA, who cares", or other such nonsense as though it is somehow OK to do something online you would not do in real life. Granted, Eve is a game. And the mechanics do allow for these types of activities. An old Chinese proverbs says "Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one." And Abraham Lincoln is responsible for this quote "I never had a policy; I have just tried to do my very best each and every day." It is easy to take the low road and say, well it's not against the rules of the game, or it's just an internet friendship. Then you can excuse your behavior as just some justified action in a game of internet spaceships and digital currency. I may not always be the easiest person to get along with. I am opinionated, I am stubborn, and I am not afraid of speaking my mind, but I do so knowing that I am not betraying those who I share the Eve universe with. They may be internet friends, internet acquaintances, or complete strangers, but they are still people. For those of you who feel it is OK to take advantage of people under these circumstances, I do not judge you. You were, or are, probably the person nobody likes, the outcast, the butt of everyone else's jokes. You are most likely compensating for your own pain and hurt by taking advantage of others. And you probably feel justified in doing so. Of course, some of you just may have no moral compass at all. It is a game. The mechanics of the game allow this behavior. Heck, the mechanics of life allow for this behavior. But real life society is usually much more quick to judge and condemn than the Eve society. And what does that say about the Eve society? As to the original question of what is morally acceptable behavior in Eve, I think people know whether their actions are morally acceptable or not. The real question is, is Eve structured in such a way to allow and encourage MORALLY UNACCEPTABLE behavior?
Chuckles McLaughy	Posted - 2011.01.24 04:24:00 - [105] Originally by: Cretara LeGalet I always wondered if the people in Eve who scam others, cheat others, take advantage of other players (especially the ones they befriend), and generally behave badly in game do so because they feel they have been treated badly in real life. Now I am not talking about 0.0 PvP, ganking players at a gate camp in low sec, or doing other things that are within the bounds of "the game." I am concerned with those people who sit in Jita and other trade hubs spamming local with their scams and rip-offs, those players who purposefully get to know another player, befriend that player, then stab them in the back when they fully gain their trust. And other things that people would consider morally wrong in real life. A lot of you have stated "it is just a game", or "As long as it is within the EULA, who cares", or other such nonsense as though it is somehow OK to do something online you would not do in real life. Granted, Eve is a game. And the mechanics do allow for these types of activities. An old Chinese proverbs says "Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one." And Abraham Lincoln is responsible for this quote "I never had a policy; I have just tried to do my very best each and every day." It is easy to take the low road and say, well it's not against the rules of the game, or it's just an internet friendship. Then you can excuse your behavior as just some justified action in a game of internet spaceships and digital currency. I may not always be the easiest person to get along with. I am opinionated, I am stubborn, and I am not afraid of speaking my mind, but I do so knowing that I am not betraying those who I share the Eve universe with. They may be internet friends, internet acquaintances, or complete strangers, but they are still people. For those of you who feel it is OK to take advantage of people under these circumstances, I do not judge you. You were, or are, probably the person nobody likes, the outcast, the butt of everyone else's jokes. You are most likely compensating for your own pain and hurt by taking advantage of others. And you probably feel justified in doing so. Of course, some of you just may have no moral compass at all. It is a game. The mechanics of the game allow this behavior. Heck, the mechanics of life allow for this behavior. But real life society is usually much more quick to judge and condemn than the Eve society. And what does that say about the Eve society? As to the original question of what is morally acceptable behavior in Eve, I think people know whether their actions are morally acceptable or not. The real question is, is Eve structured in such a way to allow and encourage MORALLY UNACCEPTABLE behavior? To counter your statement I quote myself. Originally by: Chuckles McLaughy In R/L I found a wallet on the street containing $230.00. Nobody saw me pick the wallet up. Nobody would have known if I had kept it or not. I returned the wallet to the owner, with every dollar intact, AND refused a reward for doing so. In Game I have lied, stolen, ganked etc. The difference here is, in life, my PERSONAL morals come into play, and even though I could have walked away with $230.00 clear and nobody would have known. My morals said do otherwise. In game, my GAME morals come into play and are within the games context. I'll do what needs doing depending on the situation. I wouldn't hesitate to steal from you, lie to get ahead, gank your ship or whatever. My Game morals are different than my R/L morals. If you are unable to understand how they can be different then you should unplug and not return to online games, forums or activities.
Cyprus Black Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.01.24 05:20:00 - [106] Originally by: Charles Dexter Ward My point is that there's a thin line between what is socially acceptable in EVE, and what is morally wrong. How do we know when we are about to step to far? Woah wait a minute there. There's a line? And it's thin?
Foxgguy2001 Gallente Second Hand Lions Redneck Rage	Posted - 2011.01.24 06:44:00 - [107] Originally by: Chuckles McLaughy To counter your statement I quote myself. Originally by: Chuckles McLaughy If you are unable to understand how they can be different then you should unplug and not return to online games, forums or activities. Doesn't appear to be much of a counter really... you appear to think you've asserted that your actions in-game are moral simply because you abide by a different set of principles in-game than in real-life. In-fact youFve established that according to the freal-lifeF morals you normally abide by your in-game behavior is unacceptable. Thusly youFve instituted a whole other set of principles to allow yourself to feel okay about your in-game behavior` without ever having to come to terms with stealing from a corp or fellow capsuleerFs is an inescapably immoral act.
Darcy D'Spledide	Posted - 2011.01.24 18:48:00 - [108] Edited by: Darcy D''Spledide on 24/01/2011 18:54:44 Edited by: Darcy D''Spledide on 24/01/2011 18:52:33 Originally by: Foxgguy2001 I don't know where you get the notion that morality is subjective... Why, here... Originally by: Foxgguy2001 you appear to think you've asserted that your actions in-game are moral simply because you abide by a different set of principles in-game than in real-life. In-fact youFve established that according to the freal-lifeF morals you normally abide by your in-game behavior is unacceptable. Thusly youFve instituted a whole other set of principles to allow yourself to feel okay about your in-game behavior` Morality is subjective. I don't see how you can have a problem with that, seeing as your second quote proves it. Morality is situational, on the game you're playing (Monopoly vs. Eve), on the Game you're playing (like, say, keep on talking to this girl at the bar and ignoring your friends), or if you even really care at all (how many RL thieves go to bed at night thinking they're the bad guy?) Morality is not an absolute. Can't believe I'm going here but... if you could go back and kill the censored leader of the 1940s German National Socialist Party as a baby... would you? There's no 'right' answer.
Darcy D'Spledide	Posted - 2011.01.24 18:59:00 - [109] Anyway I thought this was a sandbox. The point of a sandbox being that pushing the other kids over doesn't hurt them as much. Is an immoral act less immoral if it doesn't cause as much harm? It seems to me that anyone ascribing to RL morality in Eve is just nerfing themselves.
Monkeedude	Posted - 2011.01.24 19:53:00 - [110] Originally by: Foxgguy2001 Thusly youFve instituted a whole other set of principles to allow yourself to feel okay about your in-game behavior` without ever having to come to terms with stealing from a corp or fellow capsuleerFs is an inescapably immoral act. Well yeah, are you going to feel bad because you scored a touchdown? Scamming a friend of months or year long relationships in Eve is just another way of scoring points in Eve. Game morals are entirely different from real life morals. OR If playing a game is immoral, I don't want to be moral.

Mithrasith	Posted - 2011.01.24 20:32:00 - [111] A couple of not-so-quick observations. 1) The concept of pain: Are we causing others pain by immoral/unethical actions in the EVE universe? I would answer a resounding YES. Why? For the average player, it takes many many long grinding hours in many cases to ethically acquire a fortune in EVE. We then take that fortune in invest it usually in assets. Those assets are then typically used to make even more isk, and thus build out our empire. When someone steals/destroys and scams our hard won isk and assets - its a loss of REAL LIFE hours of work. Hours that you cant get back, but have to re-grind them all over again. That hurts. I recently had the misfortune of having about 2.5bn isk worth of assets blown up in front of my face. It freaking hurt, and there will be no reimbursement. It hurt because that was my investment of hours of hard work to build up my empire. I still have billions in assets left, and yes I could rebuild, but I may not, simply as its too much work to do all over again (and I have a busy professsional and home life). So when the scammer or pirate asks "u mad bro?" - they already know the answer as that was usually (and definately in my case as there was 0 payout for the destroyers) the whole point - *to pss someone else off** - and even in a game, its immoral, juvenille, and just plan socipathic - which brings me to my next point. 2) EVE is an intesting experiment - it allows people to truly operate in an evironment where there are no real consequences for their actions, with an ability to destroy many hours of someone elses work. 2a) Supporting the claim: EVE has a relatively unique ability to create a new character quickly, and build up Skill Points with ease without much actual time invested by the player. Simply buy the skill books, and queue them up. In contrast with other sandbox style MMO PvP games, there is little time required to create and build a new character. For instance, Ultima Online had a true sandbox style, however the diffrence is, in order to advance skills in Ultima, and Mortal Online - the player is requred to repeat actions over and over, which requires a person to sit behind the keyboard in order to advance skills (some used Macros but they were being detected and banned). This is a considerable time sink, and many players think twice before violating their own "sec status" or "red blue status" and there are real repurcussions if one does become a pker. This is not the case in EVE. Anyone with a bad sec status has an easy to create alt that simply makes the run up to empire to buy skills/ammo/trade etc. EVE Online is well known for players that have multiple accounts, as it makes it easier for people to operate in the game, get more complex tasks done at once, or have an "alternate ego" that can steal, kill and scam. 2b) So what? So the conclusion. EVE is truly an environment where players have no repurcussions - is it any wonder then that a good portion of players or the majority of players behave in the most sociopathic and chaotic fashion possible? I think not. I think EVE is a mirror that people should look into, as it shows, at least imo, how the vast majority of people would behave if there were no rules at all. Morality and ethics are being abandoned in our "western" society as fast as marriage and monogamy. I could cite numerous examples in other online games, and the internet in general of the increased prevalence of griefers, hackers and overall trouble makers that invade games (and other medium), perform completely selfish acts, ruin it for others - for the lolz, and then justify it ("It's just a game, it's just a program, it's just a movie, it's just digital medium!.." etc) when the truth is, this is who they TRULY are. if given the chance in r/l to have the same type of rule set as in EVE (no repurcussions) they would do the exact same thing as they do in EVE. That is truly the mark of whether someone is actually mora
Ninlarra	Posted - 2011.01.24 21:41:00 - [112] Its basically already been said by the few who actually aren't douchbags but I like putting things in my own words. To say that you are an upstanding citizen moral, ethical member of whatever country you live in, and in the same breath be a fire breathing, baby eating, satan worshipping douchebag 'cause "d00d its a game" is load of bull**. Things like morals, ethics, integrity, honesty, and dare I say even honor, are not things left at your bedroom door when you cut your computer on to play eve or any game for that matter. Those prinicpals listed above is who YOU are, it is engrained in you, or it isn't, it certainly NOT switched on or off like light because "BUT D00D ITS A GAME". ** that. It is plain to see in this thread who was raised right, and who is a spree killer waiting to happen. That being said, I never said I wasn't baby eater
Blood Fart	Posted - 2011.01.24 21:55:00 - [113] Originally by: Foxgguy2001 Edited by: Foxgguy2001 on 23/01/2011 15:32:56 Originally by: Blood Fart Is it immoral to buy one of every property on the monopolly board then ask for crazy amounts of money for one while laughing at your buddy because he sucks? Your reasoning here makes it plainly evident that yes, it is immoral. Would it be immoral to just shake your head and make low grunting noises after you realize your friend just moved his bishop into the worst spot possible and is going to be checkmated in 2 turns? No, though I might question your chess-playing habits... When I sit with a group of guys at a poker table am I wrong to talk sh!t all night about Joe's ugly wife and Mike's habit of going home without even his watch left to gamble? Yes, making fun of Joe's wife in an attempt to throw him off his game is still immoral. Allowing Mike to go home yet again after losing all of his money and a few personal possessions without speaking to him about his gambling problem certainly is not in the best interest of your 'friend'...certainly there are more moral ways in which you could handle this. I believe your examples, and your attempted insults speak more about you, then you intend it to speak toward those who might disagree. Did you actually answer stupid questions?.....why? But since you take this morality thing very seriously here ya go: If there is no blood there can be no morality. There is no morality in games because they are not real. They are entertainment. The minute you think someone is being immoral while playing a game then it is more than likely no longer fun. Entertainment is supposed to be fun not always moral......ever watch the 3 stooges and think Moe was being too hard on Curly? No, because it's entertaining and FAKE! Now please explain to me why internets is no fake is real lief. I love reading those.
Monkeedude	Posted - 2011.01.24 22:21:00 - [114] Originally by: Ninlarra Those prinicpals listed above is who YOU are, it is engrained in you, or it isn't, it certainly NOT switched on or off like light because "BUT D00D ITS A GAME". **** that. It is plain to see in this thread who was raised right, and who is a spree killer waiting to happen. Mmm yes. And when I play Hockey, I let the other team win because that makes me a morally better person. Right?
Foxgguy2001 Gallente Second Hand Lions Redneck Rage	Posted - 2011.01.25 01:19:00 - [115] Originally by: Darcy D'Spledide Morality is not an absolute. Can't believe I'm going here but... if you could go back and kill the censored leader of the 1940s German National Socialist Party as a baby... would you? There's no 'right' answer. [highlighting absurdity with absurdity] If your hypothetical universe has time travel, and based upon your scenario it must... I would simply prevent conception by interrupting the parents on whatever night they were to conceive. [/highlighting absurdity with absurdity] Originally by: Blood Fart If there is no blood there can be no morality. ...based upon that statement and the remaining content of your post, I'll do us both the favor of no longer acknowledging your failed attempts at intelligent debate. Good day Sir. Originally by: Monkeedude If playing a game is immoral, I don't want to be moral. It was never implied that you had to be moral... we're simply debating whether actions in-game can be immoral, to which I contend they can indeed. Thus far the only responses I've seen are along the lines of rationalizing in such a way to feel better about those immoral acts, and no significant debate as to why they can in-fact be moral (speaking of acts such as theft and piracy). Keep thieving from your corp-mates, ransoming other capsuleer's, etc. Just don't be naive enough to believe you are in-fact doing good. Originally by: Monkeedude Mmm yes. And when I play Hockey, I let the other team win because that makes me a morally better person. Right? No it doesn't, and that's actually a terrible example... perhaps you should rephrase...
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.01.25 01:21:00 - [116] Never thought this thread would carry on so long w/o someone stating the "go to" cliche: Can't we all just get along, sit around a campfire and sing Kumbayah?
Chuckles McLaughy	Posted - 2011.01.25 01:43:00 - [117] Originally by: Foxgguy2001 Originally by: Chuckles McLaughy To counter your statement I quote myself. Originally by: Chuckles McLaughy If you are unable to understand how they can be different then you should unplug and not return to online games, forums or activities. Doesn't appear to be much of a counter really... you appear to think you've asserted that your actions in-game are moral simply because you abide by a different set of principles in-game than in real-life. In-fact youFve established that according to the freal-lifeF morals you normally abide by your in-game behavior is unacceptable. Thusly youFve instituted a whole other set of principles to allow yourself to feel okay about your in-game behavior` without ever having to come to terms with stealing from a corp or fellow capsuleerFs is an inescapably immoral act. It appears to me you are unable to separate reality, from fantasy. Let me put it to you in another perspective. A real world one. Poker. In poker you bluff (lie). If my bluff is better than your bluff, I take the pot. If you keep trying to bluff and I eventually take all your money, are you going to cry that I am being immoral for taking all your money? You are an adult. You should know when to stop gambling. If you can't or won't, then the person at fault for you losing all your money is NOT the person you lost it to, but the person that lost it. A good poker player knows how to read their opponents tells. Does them having the ability to see when your bluffing make them Immoral for still stomping your butt and taking your money? No it doesn't. EVE is much the same. Within the context of the game things are allowed. The key words you seem to fail to understand is 'Within the context of the game'. Within the context of poker, bluffing is acceptable, but not immoral. Within the context of EvE, lieing, stealing, cheating, scamming, and outright killing of other players is acceptable and not immoral. When you attempt to bring real world moral behavior into the context of a game where the antithesis of that behavior is the norm, it shows that your grasp on reality is tenuous at best. EVE is a game. The moral tenets I act upon within the game, get left within the game when I log off. I know the difference between a fantasy realm, and reality. Do you?
Azalas The Galactic Guard SRS.	Posted - 2011.01.25 03:13:00 - [118] In the universe that is EvE, we "immortals" shouldnt really experience such emotions. My thought really? What you have done will only scar your reputation to the universe. People talk and will hear of you expliots and will not trust you if they bump into you.
Lysander Kaldenn Dead Reckoning.	Posted - 2011.01.25 04:24:00 - [119] Tbh, you dudes are really, really, really over-thinking this. If your doctorate thesis is about Internet Spaceship Captain Psychology you've got some pretty serious real life issues. Read Eve's full description, when you get to the word "Game" stop. Copy this word with a highlight and a right-click. Go to Wikipedia. Insert word. Read resulting article. Existential dilemma averted.
Foxgguy2001 Gallente Second Hand Lions Redneck Rage	Posted - 2011.01.25 05:59:00 - [120] Edited by: Foxgguy2001 on 25/01/2011 06:00:31 Originally by: Chuckles McLaughy It appears to me you are unable to separate reality, from fantasy. Let me put it to you in another perspective. A real world one. Poker. In poker you bluff (lie). If my bluff is better than your bluff, I take the pot. If you keep trying to bluff and I eventually take all your money, are you going to cry that I am being immoral for taking all your money? You are an adult. You should know when to stop gambling. If you can't or won't, then the person at fault for you losing all your money is NOT the person you lost it to, but the person that lost it. A good poker player knows how to read their opponents tells. Does them having the ability to see when your bluffing make them Immoral for still stomping your butt and taking your money? No it doesn't. EVE is much the same. Within the context of the game things are allowed. The key words you seem to fail to understand is 'Within the context of the game'. Within the context of poker, bluffing is acceptable, but not immoral. Within the context of EvE, lieing, stealing, cheating, scamming, and outright killing of other players is acceptable and not immoral. When you attempt to bring real world moral behavior into the context of a game where the antithesis of that behavior is the norm, it shows that your grasp on reality is tenuous at best. EVE is a game. The moral tenets I act upon within the game, get left within the game when I log off. I know the difference between a fantasy realm, and reality. Do you? The fact is, you are attempting to drag real world morality into a fantasy universe that has no morality. If you can't see how attempting to impose your real world morals on a fantasy world that is designed not to have those morals is completely stupid, I truly do feel sorry for you because you show you are unable to separate fantasy from reality. If that is the case I strongly suggest that you go speak to a nice doctor who will give you nice medications to correct your mental imbalance. Wow`do we even play the same game? I rather enjoy the well thought-out rebuttal`but itFs based on an incorrect premise` See in the Eve I play` Moral acts are rewarded: Killing NPC pirates = security status gain, financial payout for bounties Killing PC Outlaws = security status gain, financial payout for bounties Immoral acts are penalized: Suicide ganking = concord response, security status reduction Destroying unaggressed ships in low-sec = security status reduction Stealing from another players wrecks/cans = Owner gets kill-rights `and my grasp on reality is tenuous` I guess from your perspective it would have to be, as youFve skewed it in such a way as to make you feel that your conduct in-game is honorable. IFm not saying you are anything less than a fine upstanding citizen outside of your conduct in-game, just donFt play the game in an immoral way and tell me (and try to convince the community) that youFre a saint. Own it. So`vthe fact isv Quote: The moral tenets I act upon within the game Thanks for clearing that up.



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