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Herroth
Gallente
Wolf-Monkey Bastards
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Posted - 2011.01.18 20:50:00 -
[1]
There is a lot of whining about the new PI on the forums right now. Really, it all stems from one thing, the ECU itself takes up too much power. I think to placate the PI players, CCP should focus the PG load on the extractor nodes instead of the ECU.
I have a gas planet that I was producing oxygen and coolant from before the patch. Because of the PG load from the ECU, I can't extract the noble gas to make the oxygen anymore.
The new ECU system is geared more towards extractor planets which only extract one item. Like I said, just need to shift most of the PG load to the nodes instead of the ECU and the problem would be mostly fixed.
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.18 20:53:00 -
[2]
I like how your version of a level-headed discussion on PI is to complain about one thing in the new PI system that irks you and then not mention anything else.
Get out.
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Herroth
Gallente
Wolf-Monkey Bastards
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Posted - 2011.01.18 20:59:00 -
[3]
Just explaining what I view the problem as and then also providing a possible solution. Mentioning my planet was simply to provide an example. However, if you insist on me providing more thorough feed back on the new PI interface, so be it.
Personally, I really like the new PI system, besides the above mentioned problem. I can see having setting the extractors with just a few clicks per planet being an amazing thing. I also enjoy the duration flexibility to be a great idea. The fact that the new ECU set up reduces the number of links gives gas planets a greater benefit then smaller types.
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:27:00 -
[4]
I agree that the power seems to be mis-weighted. Since there is no power draw between the ECU and heads (i.e. Link length is irrelevant) I can understand the total power of ECU + heads being more than just the extractors had been previously. What I don't agree with is the level of power required just for the ECU.
I would prefer to see the Powergrid weight shifted from the ECU to the individual heads. Logically it makes sense as that is where the physical work is being done. The ECU is the brains that's controlling all the operations, thus it should be CPU intensive, but low power.
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Grashin Melar
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:44:00 -
[5]
One of the other problems I have found is in the bottleneck created by the planetary links. The links can only transport so much per given hour and your extractor control head links will not go active if you overload the system. This stems from the initial resource spike that you have when you start the process. When the resources diminish the link can handle more but adding another head resets the extraction process and resets the spike.
Also you cannot split the basic resource to go to different sites.
So you are also limited to what resources you can pull out of the planet. This makes pulling basic resources out of a planet a pain.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:52:00 -
[6]
If you are overloading your power grid you are doing it wrong.
1) Use fewer, bigger heads, a max size can extract 15-20k per hour even in empire.
2) Specialise your planets into Extraction or Production, don't mix these, except to process P0->P1.
Doing this will increase your production significantly over the old system.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.18 23:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Two Shots
I like how your version of a level-headed discussion on PI is to complain about one thing in the new PI system that irks you and then not mention anything else.
Get out.
He did actually offer a solution of sorts ...so it was some what different than just a ranting complaint. Read some of the other threads if you think this one is some how the same. lol
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BolsterBomb
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Posted - 2011.01.18 23:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
If you are overloading your power grid you are doing it wrong.
1) Use fewer, bigger heads, a max size can extract 15-20k per hour even in empire.
2) Specialise your planets into Extraction or Production, don't mix these, except to process P0->P1.
Doing this will increase your production significantly over the old system.
Shhhh don't tell them let them complain. It.means less pi which means more isk
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lushn
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Posted - 2011.01.19 00:05:00 -
[9]
If some1 knows how to put this planet any extractor after four ECU please tell me. my robotics making planet gone, 4 basic 3 adv processor and 13 extractor. now I need 4 ECU for each type material, after 4 ECU there is no power for extractors. ZERO EXTRACTOR. there were 13
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Zin Bloodjin
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Posted - 2011.01.19 00:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
If you are overloading your power grid you are doing it wrong.
1) Use fewer, bigger heads, a max size can extract 15-20k per hour even in empire.
2) Specialise your planets into Extraction or Production, don't mix these, except to process P0->P1.
Doing this will increase your production significantly over the old system.
1) Fewer? You have to have 1 ECU per type. I need 4. I can only fit 3 on my robotics planet. Bigger? Wat is that i don't even...
2) No. I had one planet for Robotics. It was my Robotics planet. I took the time to make it like that on purpose. These PI changes did nothing but cause me to have to log in more often and stay logged in longer to play a clickfest minigame when I do.
So much for passive income. I just wanted a way to select my extractors all at once. That's it. I was surprisingly OK with logging in to start a 24 hr cycle when I had time.
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Bemil
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Posted - 2011.01.19 00:46:00 -
[11]
I agree that the thing that makes this system unworkable is the high cost of the ecu. 2600 power for a unit that can't do anything for its' self is rather steep. I was expecting some local storage for that power price. Old extractors used 800 and the new heads use 550. That means you need to place all 10 harvesters to get the same # of units if you have the extra 100 power needed. 10 harvesters=8000 power. One ecu cluster = 8100 (2600+5500). if you have the 'extra' 100 power. But at that point you should as you no longer have all those other links. so at this point, i'm figuring out what materials I need to make all my stuff, hope it's no more than 4 different types, place one colony harvesting one thing on each planet. And use the 5th one to make all my stuff. So now instead of a click fest on the ground, i have a click fest in space. Because I now have to fly all over the place to gather up my mats and bring them to my asm planet. Well i suppose i could do 2 different types on a planet and go with 9 heads, but still ( yes i'm using level IV skills atm). And I have to hope there isn't a war on, well if i'm doing highsec. And right now, i'm limited to highsec
Nope don't like the power balance. I like the ecu but its' cost is just too much. Actually, I was expecting it to scale with the # of heads placed on it. I really would have loved to try this out on the test server, but i was unable to log onto it while i had the time.....
I suppose if they were trying to force more space interaction, this would be one way to do it. But this really wasn't what we were asking for. Oh well back to the paper to figure out what i need and where to get it from. |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.19 01:12:00 -
[12]
ECU powergrid cost only becomes an issue if you are trying to produce above the P2 level on a single planet. The system appears to be intentionally set up to penalize AFK-farming of higher-level planetary products on a single planet. It has always been more efficient to have dedicated extractor planets and dedicated factory planets. CCP simply made it even more troublesome.
That said, a more efficient solution would be to use longer programs, and to use multiple specialized planets. You can't treat the new system the way you treated the old. Five hours in the new system is not supposed to be equal to five hours in the old system.
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Nairuhk
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Posted - 2011.01.19 16:06:00 -
[13]
The increased PG is by design - it is optimised to work with as few ECUs as possible.
1 ECU Colony extracts loads, 2 ECUs a bit less, 3 ECUs is barely possible and 4 ECUs is not possible - which makes Robotics on a single planet impossible (unless you use a lot of lateral thinking, and planetary interaction).
There were endless threads about this whilst it was on SiSi and CCP elected NOT to alter it. Their silence on the subject was a little frustrating, but it is clear what their intent is: PI requires less click-fest, but also requires more specialisation, and thereby more interaction with others.
I had to rethink many planet designs after I tested it on SiSi, and when I last moved System I built with ECUs in mind. I switched over last night and all except one planet are producing more P1 (and even one producing more P2) than before.
The system has been balanced - but with a different outcome in mind - encouraging Planetary Interaction, rather than build and forget, and space out during mind-numbing click-fest.
:)
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Turzyx
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.19 16:24:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Turzyx on 19/01/2011 16:24:53
Edited by: Turzyx on 19/01/2011 16:24:22
Originally by: Greg Huff
I agree that the power seems to be mis-weighted. Since there is no power draw between the ECU and heads (i.e. Link length is irrelevant) I can understand the total power of ECU + heads being more than just the extractors had been previously
12 heads + ECU is 9200MW
12 extractors were 9600MW
From what I have seen on my 5 planets, the extraction rates are comparable - in some cases better if you control the cycles correctly.
As you suggest, main links connecting groups of extractors are shorter, with links to the heads non-existent.
If you had planets producing a single P0 you will have gained power grid. I believe this was the objective of the changes; it means people who are more interactive with their installations (ie. hauling daily) have the potential to extract more.
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2011.01.19 16:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zin Bloodjin
1) Fewer? You have to have 1 ECU per type. I need 4. I can only fit 3 on my robotics planet. Bigger? Wat is that i don't even...
2) No. I had one planet for Robotics. It was my Robotics planet. I took the time to make it like that on purpose. These PI changes did nothing but cause me to have to log in more often and stay logged in longer to play a clickfest minigame when I do.
So much for passive income. I just wanted a way to select my extractors all at once. That's it. I was surprisingly OK with logging in to start a 24 hr cycle when I had time.
You can no longer do single planet P3. Period. With elite command centers you can have 2 ECUs with a 5/6 processors. I am making MORE robotics now than I did before. I have 5 planets. 4 extraction -> P1 and 1 P1 -> P3 (robotics). My output is up 30%(ish) from pre-patch. I love the changes.
To your single planet robotics chain, I say, "Adapt or die."
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BolsterBomb
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Posted - 2011.01.19 16:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nairuhk
The increased PG is by design - it is optimised to work with as few ECUs as possible.
1 ECU Colony extracts loads, 2 ECUs a bit less, 3 ECUs is barely possible and 4 ECUs is not possible - which makes Robotics on a single planet impossible (unless you use a lot of lateral thinking, and planetary interaction).
There were endless threads about this whilst it was on SiSi and CCP elected NOT to alter it. Their silence on the subject was a little frustrating, but it is clear what their intent is: PI requires less click-fest, but also requires more specialisation, and thereby more interaction with others.
I had to rethink many planet designs after I tested it on SiSi, and when I last moved System I built with ECUs in mind. I switched over last night and all except one planet are producing more P1 (and even one producing more P2) than before.
The system has been balanced - but with a different outcome in mind - encouraging Planetary Interaction, rather than build and forget, and space out during mind-numbing click-fest.
:)
This. People dont understand that the old PI was a single player interactio. Yes you could argue there are many aspects that can be single player interaction but in reality they are not. Name one thing you can do all by yourself without a lot of work. Invention, you have data cores, bpcs, pos,etc. All of these require obtaining items from mulitple people. PI did not, you could produce an entire colony without any interaction of players nor planets. I had 4 planets producing all P2 items with little effort. The new PI is designed to make you think, specialize and interact. No PI has become more dynamic in order to build items. Just like mining and manufacturing, you have various people doing various task. Tada, welcome to the new PI
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Zeke Ruach
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Posted - 2011.01.19 16:59:00 -
[17]
Before the patch I was producing P3 on a single planet, from beginning to end product.
Yes, that's not the most efficient, but it worked. I just needed to log on once a day and presto, 3 robotics per hr.
I solved the issue, I'm just not going to produce anymore PI. Thank for the fix
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:01:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Joe SMASH on 19/01/2011 17:01:58
Originally by: Zeke Ruach
Before the patch I was producing P3 on a single planet, from beginning to end product.
Yes, that's not the most efficient, but it worked. I just needed to log on once a day and presto, 3 robotics per hr.
I solved the issue, I'm just not going to produce anymore PI. Thank for the fix
\o/ Less competition for me then! Thank YOU for my added profits.
I say, let everyone who cannot figure it out, stop doing PI. Soon, we see 100k ISK per robotic!
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More stuff goes here. |
Scottishprog
Caldari
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:24:00 -
[19]
I have worked with the new system... I like the reach without the link cost from the ECU to the head...
My entire POS fuel line is still working just fine! However, I manufacture my robotics on two planets in the same system. So I was only extracting two types of materials per planet. I am using a barren and a lava. (Total of 5 planets, and I buy my Oxygen)
As stated earlier, the system is designed to penalize those who try to extract more than two types of materials from a planet.... Since I was under this limit, switching my PI over was trivial. Better yet, I may be able to set up multi-day programs without any loss of productivity!
As far as I can tell... working as intended!
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Tachys al'Fahn
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:33:00 -
[20]
I think the focus is a little off here.
If you don't have high skill in the command center area, the powergrid usage is grossly more than it used to be. But if you look at an extractor with 10 extraction heads... it still seems to requires more PG, right?
Well, I don't think so....
In the old system, you would have had to link up all 10 of those extractors to something, whether it was to the command center, a storage unit, a spaceport or a processor, which would mean a minimum of 10 non-upgraded links. On one of my colonies, with the placement as close as possible, each link eats up 17 pg. If you don't have to upgrade, that means your 10 extractors with links would use 8170 pg. Now, given that I usually had a huge number of raw materials coming over those links, I would have had to upgrade 4 of those links, bringing the total pg usage to 8238.
In the new system, it doesn't matter how far away the heads are from the ECU... the max it will cost you is 8100 pg to lay down the ecu and 10 heads. Now, with the change in how this is handled, instead of 10 small links, I need one that can handle the capacity of what I am throwing over it. Given that I am in a nullsec area, the most I am putting over the link is around 1500 m3 per hour, which means I need to upgrade the link 3 times, for a total pg usage of 8151.
I know it isn't much, but its still 87 pg less, and with advanced level cc's, I find I can put down roughly the same number of extractors per planet as I was before... the only thing I didn't see coming is that they actually made the planetology and advanced planetology skills mean something.
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Nicky's Tomb
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:44:00 -
[21]
How many times does it need to be said to these people that mixing P1 and Pn on a planet is DOING IT WRONG!
I don't care if it worked before it's dumb.
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Nicky's Tomb
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Joe SMASH
Edited by: Joe SMASH on 19/01/2011 17:01:58
Originally by: Zeke Ruach
Before the patch I was producing P3 on a single planet, from beginning to end product.
Yes, that's not the most efficient, but it worked. I just needed to log on once a day and presto, 3 robotics per hr.
I solved the issue, I'm just not going to produce anymore PI. Thank for the fix
\o/ Less competition for me then! Thank YOU for my added profits.
I say, let everyone who cannot figure it out, stop doing PI. Soon, we see 100k ISK per robotic!
Damn straight. Yea, PI is rubbish, you should all get away to flex and do something else :) Don't want any of you lot pushing market prices for my goods down :D
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Meritet Kirrupse
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:49:00 -
[23]
My complaints with the revisions to PI stem from being a new character who has started her career by becoming very mediocre at a lot of different things in order to try them out. I run level 1 and 2 combat or courier missions, and I use a fitted, unrigged Iteron Mark 1 to move my goods around. My base of operations is only two jumps from a fair market (Dodixie), and things have worked out well for me -- I make enough ISK to be progressing alongside my skills, and nothing seems overly tedious or out-of-reach.
I had three planets producing a mix of P2 and P1 products -- I haven't yet tried using a Spaceport, I'm just hoarding my items until I have better Command Centers available. The former setups I had were very user-friendly, for the following reasons:
1) Non-variable cycles led to reliable routing and efficiency, especially coupled with the
2) 23-hour cycle which made it very easy to perform P1 and P2 refining efficiently without using a silo or spaceport, and
3) Extracting and producing many different kinds of commodities instead of specializing was more fun for me, because I have yet to do research into which I should be working towards to maximize profits ... diversification hedges my bets, and
4) The more-manageable volumes allow me to use that aforementioned Iteron Mk1 to do all of the hauling, only once every 24-48 hours, and with a little space left to do a courier mission or just move other things at the same time
The new PI system forces me into a position of specialization before understanding, larger hauls and more expensive colonies due to the need of silos & spaceports to compensate for uneven cycle yields, and requires more planets and more skill investment to do things that I was able to do previously --
I am not arguing that I should be able to produce more ISK with less investment in skills ... but that the previous model allowed low-skill, low-capital, new character colony-runners with the ability to receive their passive ISK on the side in a larger combination of unique items, on a more regular schedule, more efficiently, and with lower haul loads.
The new system may actually allow capsuleers in general to make more ISK, but the amount of skill and capital investment required -- both in PI skills and in hauling skills or interaction a player might not otherwise need to invest in -- are both steeper and present themselves as problems more quickly.
All of that said, whether or not it's better overall for the game that effective and efficient planetary interaction will now only be possible with the investment of a week or two of skills versus a day or two isn't something I can answer. :) I suspect that these changes are ultimately good for the market, but I wanted to elaborate on what they look like from the perspective of a new character since I haven't seen that point-of-view described much yet.
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2011.01.19 17:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Nicky's Tomb
How many times does it need to be said to these people that mixing P1 and Pn on a planet is DOING IT WRONG!
I don't care if it worked before it's dumb.
QFT
Extraction to P2+ on a single planet is wrong. It has been inefficient since PI day 1. The highest yeilds and highest efficiency has always been extraction -> P1 on a single planet PER resource. Then if you need P2+, you move all the resources to a single production planet to refine/process to P2/P3/P4. Anyone who argues that single planet P2+ is the most efficient way needs to open their eyes.
CCP made it so now you HAVE to do PI the most efficient way. I am making more ISK with new system with FAR less work. I cannot be the only one.
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More stuff goes here. |
BolsterBomb
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Posted - 2011.01.19 18:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: BolsterBomb on 19/01/2011 18:16:08
Originally by: Meritet Kirrupse
My complaints with the revisions to PI stem from being a new character who has started her career by becoming very mediocre at a lot of different things in order to try them out. I run level 1 and 2 combat or courier missions, and I use a fitted, unrigged Iteron Mark 1 to move my goods around. My base of operations is only two jumps from a fair market (Dodixie), and things have worked out well for me -- I make enough ISK to be progressing alongside my skills, and nothing seems overly tedious or out-of-reach.
I had three planets producing a mix of P2 and P1 products -- I haven't yet tried using a Spaceport, I'm just hoarding my items until I have better Command Centers available. The former setups I had were very user-friendly, for the following reasons:
1) Non-variable cycles led to reliable routing and efficiency, especially coupled with the
2) 23-hour cycle which made it very easy to perform P1 and P2 refining efficiently without using a silo or spaceport, and
3) Extracting and producing many different kinds of commodities instead of specializing was more fun for me, because I have yet to do research into which I should be working towards to maximize profits ... diversification hedges my bets, and
4) The more-manageable volumes allow me to use that aforementioned Iteron Mk1 to do all of the hauling, only once every 24-48 hours, and with a little space left to do a courier mission or just move other things at the same time
The new PI system forces me into a position of specialization before understanding, larger hauls and more expensive colonies due to the need of silos & spaceports to compensate for uneven cycle yields, and requires more planets and more skill investment to do things that I was able to do previously --
I am not arguing that I should be able to produce more ISK with less investment in skills ... but that the previous model allowed low-skill, low-capital, new character colony-runners with the ability to receive their passive ISK on the side in a larger combination of unique items, on a more regular schedule, more efficiently, and with lower haul loads.
The new system may actually allow capsuleers in general to make more ISK, but the amount of skill and capital investment required -- both in PI skills and in hauling skills or interaction a player might not otherwise need to invest in -- are both steeper and present themselves as problems more quickly.
All of that said, whether or not it's better overall for the game that effective and efficient planetary interaction will now only be possible with the investment of a week or two of skills versus a day or two isn't something I can answer. :) I suspect that these changes are ultimately good for the market, but I wanted to elaborate on what they look like from the perspective of a new character since I haven't seen that point-of-view described much yet.
Although I understand your statement, I do not agree. Eve is like this in every aspect, you have to specialize and cannot do broad training. Its like that for ships, industrial, etc.
I have the lowest level of planetolgy, CC 3 and 5 plantes and I am able to produce 700 mech parts and 700 coolant a day AND since the patch I have uped my extraction
amounts. I do not know how planetology truly factors in, because as long as I have enough output that fills my processors I dont care. So if I need 900k or 42k per cycle I shoot for 50k + per cycle and over a 1m total production amount. I dont care if the numbers are right as long as my processor are full. I think people forget the ultimate goal and get wrapped up in details.
So saying low skilled players cant get into PI is hogwash. The only thing a low skilled player is effected by is the CC and amount of planets, everything
else should be normal. And those items (cc and amount of planets) did not change. Just stop trying to manufacture p3 on a single planet.
And for the rest
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Chelone
Junkyard Gunners
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Posted - 2011.01.20 00:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nicky's Tomb
How many times does it need to be said to these people that mixing P1 and Pn on a planet is DOING IT WRONG!
I don't care if it worked before it's dumb.
Yeah... wanting to haul for each character for each planet every single day is smart. Wanting things to be easier is dumb.
Next patch, maybe they can make an additional "mini-game" where you have to manually rub the mouse over the rockface to uncover materials for each extractor. Oh, also make a mini-game where you have to refuel trucks and manually pave roads on the planet. That sounds exciting.
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.20 00:24:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Joe SMASH
Anyone who argues that single planet P2+ is the most efficient way needs to open their eyes.
Tell me O wise and efficient one. How do you make all the PI fuels with only 3 planets (barren, lava, gas) in deep WH space?
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Totollen
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Posted - 2011.01.20 01:47:00 -
[28]
You folks are remembering that ECUs can be repurposed and aren't locked into producing the same commodity forever more?
So if you position it right you can extract a run of one material, store the output, then extract a run of another material after repurposing and moving the heads (rinse, repeat). This doesn't cost anything.
For me this means I can now potentially produce every material available on a planet whereas before I was locked into producing whatever extractors I first built withour expensive retooling.
You can choose a fixed network prodcucing low numbers of commodities, or an active network that means more work, but can produce most/all materials available on a planet.
I personally love the new system, but you have to play with it, learn what it can do and adapt accordingly to use it to its maximum capability.
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.20 02:28:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Turzyx
12 heads + ECU is 9200MW
12 extractors were 9600MW
ECUs can only have 10 heads. so to get 12 heads would be another 2600 power for a total of 11800 power.
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Kharylien
Gallente
Masked Rider Project
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Posted - 2011.01.20 03:58:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Meritet Kirrupse
My complaints with the revisions to PI stem from being a new character who has started her career by becoming very mediocre at a lot of different things in order to try them out.
This is a valid choice, but if you're going to be very mediocre at something, you're going to have to accept very mediocre returns.
The new PI system is not going to be zero-profit for a new player; you can use it and still make some money out of it. But you're going to have limited return on a limited skill investment.
Welcome to EVE.
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