Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
ARES 003
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 19:17:00 -
[1]
I am thinking about training for an assault ship, so just wondering, is it worth it to train assault ships over cruisers? maybe not at my experience level, but in general, will an assault frigate outperform a t1 cruiser in situations like solo pvp or is it better just to use a cruiser?
|
Lilla Kharn
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 19:30:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Lilla Kharn on 12/01/2011 19:30:59 Assault frigates will outperform a T1 cruiser in most instances. They are faster, smaller, more maneuverable and output around the same DPS. However, they also require a great deal more skills to become viable. Such as a T2 fit including the guns. I would recommend training cruisers first as they are also quite a bit cheaper and don't need as much skills.
A T2 cruiser will at most cost you 10 million. An assault frigate hull will cost you upwards of 15 million, not including fittings. ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
|
Dark Pangolin
Caldari Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 19:37:00 -
[3]
^^ what that person said.
However i would say that a fully T2 fit and rigged (t1 rigs) cruiser can and will cost up to 20-25mill depending on the cruiser and fit, however this is about the same cost as a similarly fit/rigged assault frig, and as the above poster said the assault frig tends to outperform the T1 cruiser on average.
Obviously, specific T1 cruisers could beat most specific T2 assault ships most of the time...but thats called EVE, everything is situational.
|
Monger Man
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 19:40:00 -
[4]
I've looked at this myself and went the AF route. If you pick the right AF they can actually be a bit cheaper then a well fit cruiser (opinion).
Skill wise, hmmm. To really take advantage of some of the cruisers you need pretty close to the same skills. Maybe you can get them quicker for cuisers.
They way I looked at it was insurance vs fitting cost. A t2 fit cruiser can get very pricey, and you get almost nothing back insurance wise. You pay more up front for an AF but its fit is much cheaper t2.
Do the math you're self and figure out what you want.
|
Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 19:41:00 -
[5]
AF's are not really that good at the moment, the best two likely being the Ishkur & Jag. The problem, is they are kinda gimped atm and needed that AB boost that CCP was gonna give them some time ago, but decided not to.
The Navy ships Comet,Slicer,Hookbill & Firetail all pretty much outclass most of the AF's IMO and T1 cruisers such as the Arbitrator, Caracal, Vexor & Rupture will easily out class a single AF.
If you are wanting a frig to specialize in, I'd suggest going with either the Navy Frigs or Interceptors as they work ok for soloing and will be far more useful to a gang than a AF would be.
|
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 20:04:00 -
[6]
Any cruiser that has some anti-frig capabilities (neuts, light drones, etc) will be able to deal with AF's pretty easily. It's only the slower, less versatile cruisers (like the Thorax) that really have problems with AF's
|
Dark Pangolin
Caldari Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 20:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mutnin
The Navy ships Comet,Slicer,Hookbill & Firetail all pretty much outclass most of the AF's IMO and T1 cruisers such as the Arbitrator, Caracal, Vexor & Rupture will easily out class a single AF.
I agree that many of the faction frigs are just as good as, if not better than, most of the racial t2 assault ships, but they cost 2x or 3x more on average and give you next to nothing back in insurance. Also its important to remember that EVE is situational...don't attack drone boats in frig hulls (Arbitrator, Vexor)...don't attack light assault missile boats in frig hulls...(Caracal aka FRIG DOOM)...and remember that some ships pack the Neuts/Webs...(Ruppy)...but you may be able to kite a Ruppy to death...depending on its fit and your fit...etc...etc...etc situational everything
I've fended off 2 Darmiels at the same time in a T1 fit assault missile Caracal. I would guess there was about 200-250mill worth of ship/fittings between them vs my 7 mill Caracal. I couldn't kill them as they would burn away and I couldn't hold the point, but they couldn't kill me without popping in the act. Eventually they just let me go...before my friends got there. Some ships you don't fight in frigs...thats for 1v1
Now when you throw in fleets...you will align, maneuver, and burn a heck of a lot faster in most AFs that you will in most cruisers (MOST)...gtfo ability is often highly regarded...as tank/dps don't mean much when 10-20 guys decide to shoot your Assault Frig/Cruiser
Having said all this, personally, I fly T1 cruisers and faction frigs over AFs, most of the time, but that has to do with my personal preferences on how I fly and how I fight.
|
Aiwha
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 20:36:00 -
[8]
Personally, I look at AF's as more of a small gang boat than a lone vessel. So if you're going alone, go cruiser, then BC, they'll keep you safe flying alone. However, if you're doing small gang or fleet warfare, AF's can be a nice counterpunch to a standard faction/ceptor fleet. Personally, I keep a Retribution on hand for those fleets, for a frigate, it has a monster tank, amazing dps, and can keep a MWD and its guns online cap stable. Now, it cant fit tackle... But again, fleet ship, other people tackle, AF's kick their teeth in.
Gullible
|
Dorian Tormak
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 21:23:00 -
[9]
They perform about the same... cost about the same, AF being on the ****ty end of both of these, not by THAT much though. After the fourth bonus comes it will be better.
But on the awesome level frigs win every time!
|
Millie Clode
Amarr Insert Cool Name Here
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 21:48:00 -
[10]
Assault ships get a raw deal at the moment. The minnie and gallente ones are pretty good, hawk and vengeance might be good now rockets have been buffed (still haven't bothered training for rockets yet). The problem is that most cruisers have capabilities which will badly **** up an AF. Stabbers and bellicoses are faster than your burner-fit lolfrig, AML caracals, arbitrators, vexors and thoraxes will have weapon systems tailored to melting frigates, ruppies, mallers and moas can all pack enough buffer that you don't have a hope of matching it in an AF (not even with mad t2 resists). So unless by "t1 cruiser" you mean the scythe/augoror/celestis that hardly anyone bothers with, no...you're better off with a cruiser. ---------- Who, me? |
|
Worgen Fratmon
Minmatar Instapop Industries
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 22:24:00 -
[11]
For solo PvP, go with the a t1 cruiser. They are cheaper and have more slots available for web, neuts, points, and e-war. Even the awesome Jaguar is at a general disadvantage in solo PvP.
Currently, assault ships shine in missioning or gang PvP. A Wolf can easily handle most level 3 missions (with Angels posing more difficulty). A Jaguar in a full squad or less, adds a great deal of DPS for such a small and fast package.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 23:06:00 -
[12]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 12/01/2011 23:08:18 T1 cruiser > AF, but AF's are great mission ships and can avoid gate camps better.
And triple-web Celestis for the frigate pwn'ing win.
|
Kahega Amielden
T.R.I.A.D
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 23:22:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Worgen Fratmon For solo PvP, go with the a t1 cruiser. They are cheaper and have more slots available for web, neuts, points, and e-war. Even the awesome Jaguar is at a general disadvantage in solo PvP.
Currently, assault ships shine in missioning or gang PvP. A Wolf can easily handle most level 3 missions (with Angels posing more difficulty). A Jaguar in a full squad or less, adds a great deal of DPS for such a small and fast package.
Depending on the fit, I'd argue that AFs aren't really any more expensive than cruisers.
Firstly, most AFs can actually be purchased for ~10-15 mil, surprisingly. Only the flavor of the month AFs are any more expensive.
Secondly, AF fittings are significantly less costly, most notably the rigs. The rigs alone way more than make up the hull cost difference between the two ship classes.
The main downside of AFs is that cruisers often fit specifically to **** on frigates, and they do that very well. A couple small neuts is enough to annihilate any frigate that operates within 6km. Ever run into a 1600mm plate neuting vexor in a gang of frigates? Nasty.
However, AFs have a big upside in that it's much harder to catch them. Frigate hulls -are- significantly more agile than cruiser hulls and let you dodge ganks much better, which are an omnipresent threat in solo PVP.
|
Aquana Abyss
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 00:02:00 -
[14]
Such great contradictory advice in this thread. Nice work.
|
Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 00:46:00 -
[15]
AFs are great for solo work and frigate gangs. ~
|
IoWalker
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 01:44:00 -
[16]
Edited by: IoWalker on 13/01/2011 01:48:10 AFs are just good for small gangs, period. I don't count missioning b/c I don't care about them.
If you were looking at the aspect a 1v1 a cruiser (even a T1 crusier).. lol. Cruiser.
I think an AF is excellent for either RvB, or a corp that truly gets small gang fights (extremely rare)
Edit: the thing that really gets me about AFs (like EAFs as well), is that you are spending crazy time to max those little dead-end things that lead to no other ship skill tree. Think about that, b/c that is a leading reason why no one is flying them, second only to sheer performance.
|
Deandra Walran
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 04:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
The main downside of AFs is that cruisers often fit specifically to **** on frigates, and they do that very well. A couple small neuts is enough to annihilate any frigate that operates within 6km. Ever run into a 1600mm plate neuting vexor in a gang of frigates? Nasty.
I once lost a Wolf (on an alt) to a Broadsword and a Raven Navy Issue, but considering I was the bait and my corpies podded both pilots, I think it was a win.
|
Coffeez
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 05:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: IoWalker Edited by: IoWalker on 13/01/2011 01:48:10 AFs are just good for small gangs, period. I don't count missioning b/c I don't care about them.
If you were looking at the aspect a 1v1 a cruiser (even a T1 crusier).. lol. Cruiser.
I think an AF is excellent for either RvB, or a corp that truly gets small gang fights (extremely rare)
Edit: the thing that really gets me about AFs (like EAFs as well), is that you are spending crazy time to max those little dead-end things that lead to no other ship skill tree. Think about that, b/c that is a leading reason why no one is flying them, second only to sheer performance.
I think you need AF IV for HACs so it's not wasted training time. |
Aiwha
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 08:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Aquana Abyss Such great contradictory advice in this thread. Nice work.
You know somethings good when people love it and hate it.
Gullible
|
foksieloy
Minmatar Universal Army
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 09:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Aiwha You know somethings good when people love it and hate it.
Are you referring to AF's or to T1 cruisers? :) _______________________ Drink Eau du Nichup«, the taste of heaven. Now available as Nichup Citrus« as well! |
|
VanNostrum
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 12:38:00 -
[21]
With an AF and a small nos you can orbit any BC/HAC/Cruiser (even ashimmu if u got AB) indefinitely without getting hit, after you take out the drones
can never do that with a cruiser
|
Diesel47
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 13:34:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Diesel47 on 13/01/2011 13:35:41
Originally by: Lilla Kharn Edited by: Lilla Kharn on 12/01/2011 19:30:59 Assault frigates will outperform a T1 cruiser in most instances. They are faster, smaller, more maneuverable and output around the same DPS. However, they also require a great deal more skills to become viable. Such as a T2 fit including the guns. I would recommend training cruisers first as they are also quite a bit cheaper and don't need as much skills.
A T2 cruiser will at most cost you 10 million. An assault frigate hull will cost you upwards of 15 million, not including fittings.
I disagree, an assault frigate in most instances when fighting a pilot that knows what he is doing will be neuted, webbed, and then attacked by drones until he dies. (Unless you fit nos and AB)
Plus you never know when to attack that caracal floating around because you can't tell if he has heavy missiles loaded or assault missiles.
If you are looking for a counter to cruisers, then assault ship is not the best.
|
Dorian Tormak
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 22:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Diesel47 Edited by: Diesel47 on 13/01/2011 13:35:41
Originally by: Lilla Kharn Edited by: Lilla Kharn on 12/01/2011 19:30:59 Assault frigates will outperform a T1 cruiser in most instances. They are faster, smaller, more maneuverable and output around the same DPS. However, they also require a great deal more skills to become viable. Such as a T2 fit including the guns. I would recommend training cruisers first as they are also quite a bit cheaper and don't need as much skills.
A T2 cruiser will at most cost you 10 million. An assault frigate hull will cost you upwards of 15 million, not including fittings.
I disagree, an assault frigate in most instances when fighting a pilot that knows what he is doing will be neuted, webbed, and then attacked by drones until he dies. (Unless you fit nos and AB)
Plus you never know when to attack that caracal floating around because you can't tell if he has heavy missiles loaded or assault missiles.
If you are looking for a counter to cruisers, then assault ship is not the best.
So why doesn't anyone fit AB and nos and go anal **** cruisers? I se cruisers preying on frigs and frigs running away, never seen a frig take down a cruiser (except the few I've taken down) if this nos tactic is so effective why doesnt anyone do it? Or have I just missed it?
|
Lain Umi
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 00:27:00 -
[24]
a properly fit cruiser will always always always give you more survivability*, utility* and DPS than an AF.
*unless you want to tackle, in which case an inty/EAF is more useful to begin with.
do what you like, but eventually you'll figure out what im saying through experience.
|
Lain Umi
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 00:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Diesel47
I disagree, an assault frigate in most instances when fighting a pilot that knows what he is doing will be neuted, webbed, and then attacked by drones until he dies. (Unless you fit nos and AB)
If you are looking for a counter to cruisers, then assault ship is not the best.
this pretty much. hell, you could setup an exequror to take down all frigs with ease.
|
Dorian Tormak
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 01:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lain Umi
Originally by: Diesel47
I disagree, an assault frigate in most instances when fighting a pilot that knows what he is doing will be neuted, webbed, and then attacked by drones until he dies. (Unless you fit nos and AB)
If you are looking for a counter to cruisers, then assault ship is not the best.
this pretty much. hell, you could setup an exequror to take down all frigs with ease.
You could setup any cruiser to pwn frigs yes... but how effective will it be against a cruiser who's fit to fight cruisers? Im guessing not very effective.
Ive got a question though that needs to be answered for this thread to be decided: How effective is a Nos against a medium neut? Will you need to pack CCCs to make it worth it or will a nos my itself work? two medium neuts is probly done either way but what about a meed small combo against a small nos? all thats really needed is to keep your scram running and you can speed tank probably. Anyone got the answer to this?
|
foksieloy
Minmatar Universal Army
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 07:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dorian Tormak How effective is a Nos against a medium neut?
Using a small NOS you can keep a scram on a target indefinitely. Regardless of the number of neuts on you. Turn off autocycle on the NOS, then activate it just before your scram has to activate. You would have to be extremely unlucky for his neut cycle to come between your NOS cycle and scram cycle.
And even if he manages that (he wont unless you **** up!), you are at most 3 seconds away from reactivating the scram. He might not realise you lost point for that short period. _______________________ Drink Eau du Nichup«, the taste of heaven. Now available as Nichup Citrus« as well! |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dorian Tormak
You could setup any cruiser to pwn frigs yes... but how effective will it be against a cruiser who's fit to fight cruisers? Im guessing not very effective.
A Rupture with two neuts, a massively tanked AML Caracal flown properly, and an underfit 1600mm plated Vexor have pretty big engagement envelopes.
|
Dorian Tormak
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Dorian Tormak How effective is a Nos against a medium neut?
Using a small NOS you can keep a scram on a target indefinitely. Regardless of the number of neuts on you. Turn off autocycle on the NOS, then activate it just before your scram has to activate. You would have to be extremely unlucky for his neut cycle to come between your NOS cycle and scram cycle.
And even if he manages that (he wont unless you **** up!), you are at most 3 seconds away from reactivating the scram. He might not realise you lost point for that short period.
That's neat man. I am definately gonna check it out.
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Dorian Tormak
You could setup any cruiser to pwn frigs yes... but how effective will it be against a cruiser who's fit to fight cruisers? Im guessing not very effective.
A Rupture with two neuts, a massively tanked AML Caracal flown properly, and an underfit 1600mm plated Vexor have pretty big engagement envelopes.
Fair enough.
|
Othran
Ad Infernum
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 17:32:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dorian Tormak
Ive got a question though that needs to be answered for this thread to be decided: How effective is a Nos against a medium neut? Will you need to pack CCCs to make it worth it or will a nos my itself work? two medium neuts is probly done either way but what about a meed small combo against a small nos? all thats really needed is to keep your scram running and you can speed tank probably. Anyone got the answer to this?
Two medium neuts will not reliably kill the cap on a frigate with a small nos. The small nos cycle time is simply too fast compared to the medium neuts. It may cap the frigate out for a second or so but you'll be lucky to get away in that time.
One medium and one small neut will kill the cap pretty effectively on most frigates that require cap for weapons.
On frigates that don't require cap for weapons you will be pretty screwed even with a medium/small combo.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |