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Ehrghiez
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Posted - 2011.01.04 13:04:00 -
[1]
I was just curious how the three of these match up in usefulness/utility. If there is already a thread that touches on this subject it would be appreciated if a link could be provided.
I was reading another thread on how railguns are broken, etc, blah blah blah, and it got me wondering how they compare to one another in general utility. I understand they all have 'roles' to fit, but Im not so much interested in one specific role as opposed to a myriad of possible roles.
I personally use Rails as I do not have either projectiles or lasers trained, and because of this I have no educated experience on the subject, which is why I am asking =)
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Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.04 13:43:00 -
[2]
There are tons of threads on it, but since railguns suck so much why not have another one.
I am also bolding the traits that have the biggest differences between the weapon types.
Artillery is best at: selectable damage types, capless shooting, alpha strike worst at: tracking (unless you use mid range ammo), dps (its almost the same dps as railguns though)
Railguns are best at: optimal range , optimal range, optimal range, (which ironically enough got nerfed compared to artillery when they added the fall off bonuses to tracking modules) worst at: alpha strike, ammo usage
Beams at best at: DPS, tracking, ammo usage (infinate ammo and instant reloading/swaps) worst at: cap usage
In real world usage you will notice more of a difference between them and its shown in typical fleet compositions, Zealots/Munnins are used 10 times more than Eagles/Deimoses. Maelstroms, Geddons, Abaddons outnumber any rail boat by a large margin also.
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Kendon Riddick
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Posted - 2011.01.04 14:01:00 -
[3]
Rails need to use less cap, and have a distinct tracking advatange.
They have average dps, average range, average fall off, average fitting theres nothing going for them.
They use a shell, takes lots of cap to fire before anything else thats two negative factors. nothing to make up for it, other than "they work".
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Gianath
Gallente Gallentian Legitimate Businessmen
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Posted - 2011.01.04 15:12:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kendon riddick Rails need to use less cap, and have a distinct tracking advatange.
They have average dps, average range, average fall off, average fitting theres nothing going for them.
They use a shell, takes lots of cap to fire before anything else thats two negative factors. nothing to make up for it, other than "they work".
Yeah, I made the mistake of taking a month off my drone training to work on adding large hybrid skills to my Dominix thinking there's no way it could be as bad as everybody said, and it could only make missioning even better/faster. Boy was I wrong. I tried with full sets of dual 250s, 350s, and 4x425's, faction tracking computers and faction stabilizers, the extra damage I picked up versus rat battleships whether at close range with navy antimatter or extreme range with navy iron ammo was laughable. Forget using blasters on a Domi in missions, atleast until MWDs work in missions in the hopefully near future. Even incoming frigates would barely get grazed before they could close to orbit range. And filling my hull with 2000-3000 rounds of large charges needed to get through most level 4s severely limited the amount of loot I could carry back. I swear every time I fired off a volley I felt like I was just tossing my ISK out a window, the damage was so pitiful. My T1 heavy drones would do 10 times the damage my guns would at the time.
Maybe I would feel differently if I went with a Megathron, but atleast in a Dominix you are far better off using the cliche civilian gun to grab aggro, and filling your highs with anything *other* than hybrids, whether it's salvagers, remote reps, or nos. Leave that crappy hybrid ammo out of your cargo bay and fill it with loot as the Eve Gods intended.
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2011.01.04 15:23:00 -
[5]
I'll say it now that I'm no fan of the daily 'so... hybrids... suck?' threads but knowing how long and how many threads it look to get projectiles looked at:
Yes, Hybrids currently lack a strong enough reason to use them in many cases over their turret-based counterparts (projectiles, lasers).
The most common complaints are that hybrid ships tend to be slow and cumbersome (a poor match for close range weaponry) and that when you actually do get in range the tracking on hybrids does not make up for the small damage increase.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:00:00 -
[6]
main problem of hybrids is simply that they are "extremes" weapons.
rails are the guns with the biggest base optimal in game, and to balance that they have not so great damage and tracking is "average", making them able to dish a low but very uniform dps. it is rather "ok" in theory. problem is, beyond 150km, it becomes useless with in-grid warps, and at 150km both lasers and projectiles can do the same as railguns do, but with better damage.
blasters are on the other extreme, but have quite the different problems: they work the best when using buffer tanks, but this either means you're stuck with 5 midslots for shield tanks or you go turtle mode and you're kited by everyone. Add the extreme penalties you get for blasters' range and tracking to get just some 5-10% damage advantage over weapons that have up to 300% more range, and you have blasters.
fixing these is kind of hard. About blasters, the ways to fix them are easier. I myself would like to see blasters to be pretty much the weapon of choice to fight up to 10km (for large blasters) and some tracking and make blaster ships somewhat more mobile on the battlefield (less mobile than minmatar tho).
fixing rails is... hard. Simply boosting damage doesn't seem to be the best idea since it could make all the other weapon systems redundant for long range, but beyond that it's really a blank sheet. Some rail boats do need a fix, specially the eagle that struggles to fit a full rack of 250's and anything else that uses grid. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
InColdBlood
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:28:00 -
[7]
Edited by: InColdBlood on 04/01/2011 16:28:05 How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between to systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. I a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
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McRoll
Minmatar The Legion of Darkness
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:29:00 -
[8]
About that fixing of hybrids: it is true that you cannot simply increase damage, optimal or tracking, that either doesn't solve the problem or makes them overpowered. What hybrids need is a special effect on them like biggest alpha for arties or no cap usage on T1 crystals.
I proposed some sort of "piercing damage" a while ago on the ideas forum, this would give railguns a chance to penetrate the shield and do damage on the armor or hull (only until a certain value). Other thing that comes to mind is an increased chance of dealing a wrecking hit (lolrp: railguns shoot with such velocity and precision that they can hit vital structures on the ship more often and more reliably than their counterparts /lolrp)
Basically stuff like that, some flavour to set them apart from other weapons. I strongly disagree with proposals to increase damage or optimal because they are already devastating once they are in the right conditions. The problem is to get there but it also should remain, because when you choose to play with hybrids, you have chosen the "extreme" weapon type which means it is either extremely strong or you have difficulty to use it.
Projectile is the allround weapon, good stats damage and range wise but not the best in a specific situation (Amarr are best at range witch Scorch and Gallente DPS wise with blasters in optimal)
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: InColdBlood Edited by: InColdBlood on 04/01/2011 16:28:05 How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between to systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. I a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
A completely new weapons system? CCP doesn't have the balls to try that as cool as it sounds.
And that idea would be WONDERFUL. It would seperate all the weapons systems completely.
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
To mare
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: InColdBlood Edited by: InColdBlood on 04/01/2011 16:28:05 How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between to systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. I a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
A completely new weapons system? CCP doesn't have the balls to try that as cool as it sounds.
And that idea would be WONDERFUL. It would seperate all the weapons systems completely.
probably because its a stupid idea, having a weapon that can change from blaster dps to railgun range just switching ammo is bad
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: InColdBlood Edited by: InColdBlood on 04/01/2011 16:28:05 How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between to systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. I a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
A completely new weapons system? CCP doesn't have the balls to try that as cool as it sounds.
And that idea would be WONDERFUL. It would seperate all the weapons systems completely.
probably because its a stupid idea, having a weapon that can change from blaster dps to railgun range just switching ammo is bad
Lasers do this? And balance it with cap usage. Oh, and YOU'RE STUIPD nener nener nener.
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
Darth Anonymous
Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: InColdBlood Edited by: InColdBlood on 04/01/2011 16:28:05 How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between to systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. I a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
A completely new weapons system? CCP doesn't have the balls to try that as cool as it sounds.
And that idea would be WONDERFUL. It would seperate all the weapons systems completely.
probably because its a stupid idea, having a weapon that can change from blaster dps to railgun range just switching ammo is bad
So you don't like Amarr ships, then?
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McRoll
Minmatar The Legion of Darkness
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:50:00 -
[13]
And why exactly do we need another weapon system that can switch their range as flexible as Amarr do?
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Pheusia
Gallente The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: InColdBlood Edited by: InColdBlood on 04/01/2011 16:28:05 How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between to systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. I a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
Aahahahaa you crazy fool that's a completely...
...not too bad and rather original idea. Add in Megan's script suggestion and you have a genuinely different turret type, which is what hybrids have needed to be all along. That would make Hybrids, Lasers and Projectiles all "overpowered" in their own unique way. I like that a lot. Go write it up in the assembly hall so I can vote for it.
It would need a lot of work putting in to make sure that there aren't genuinely overpowered combinations, but it could really work. Signed, Pheusia |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:57:00 -
[15]
i seem to have to fly further than i ever did plus with rigs one practicly MUST use trimarks to last long enough to apply my dps and Null does not give enough of anything to be usful, this is why i stopped flying my mega.
Now if Null gave a savage falloff bonus instead of range and changed the blasters into somthing resembling an auto cannon to actually do some okay damage from range while closing, i might use the mega again.
Else its geddon all the way baby, i odnt think theres anything that can be done to blasters besides WTFPWN dps that would work wihtout just creating yet another line of shield tanked gank machines.
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To mare
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.01.04 17:02:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Darth Anonymous
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: InColdBlood Edited by: InColdBlood on 04/01/2011 16:28:05 How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between to systems.
Lets go from there...
Why not let ammo deside how the weapon works. I a player loads rail ammo the gun will fire as a rail. If the player loads blaster ammo it will work as a blaster.
2 guns in one. A hybrid.
Both rail and blasters suck so much that combined they just about make a decent weapon.
A completely new weapons system? CCP doesn't have the balls to try that as cool as it sounds.
And that idea would be WONDERFUL. It would seperate all the weapons systems completely.
probably because its a stupid idea, having a weapon that can change from blaster dps to railgun range just switching ammo is bad
So you don't like Amarr ships, then?
tell me a amarr ships that can have pulse TRACKING/dps at < 50km and beam dps at > 150km w/o switching the high slots
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To mare
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.01.04 17:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Megan Maynard Lasers do this? And balance it with cap usage. Oh, and YOU'RE STUIPD nener nener nener.
no laser dont do this and . and there is reason if CCP added two type of weapon for any race one with long range capabilities and one for short. switching ammo shouldnt allow any ship to change from sniper to brawler
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Pheusia
Gallente The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.04 17:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: McRoll And why exactly do we need another weapon system that can switch their range as flexible as Amarr do?
Because ACs have range flexibility due to falloff, lasers have range flexibility because of instant ammo change and only hybrids are left out in the cold (as usual). Signed, Pheusia |
McRoll
Minmatar The Legion of Darkness
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Posted - 2011.01.04 17:29:00 -
[19]
Edited by: McRoll on 04/01/2011 17:35:29 AC's don't have range flexibility, where do you have that from? On the edge of falloff you are doing next to no damage, but EFT warriors only see the number that describes falloff and assume that the ship is doing most of its DPS up to this range.
They do not.
Learn about how falloff works and recognize that not every Minmatar ship has a bonus to falloff. In order to do meaningful damage, every ship without a falloff bonus has to come as close to his enemy as a Gallente ship. Only ships with a falloff bonus like the Vagabond are able to engage from longer distances and they have to use Barrage for that, which limits your damage type choice exactly like with Amarr or Gallente.
Edit: Lasers need that changeable range advantage because they are left with nearly pure EM damage when they use Scorch which hits the highest natural resists on armor tankers and strong shield resistances on Minmatar T2 ships. Furthermore they use the most cap and heavy pulse lasers are very difficult to fit so you often have to downgrade to smaller tier, like on armor tanked Harbinger.
Once you got that come back again and discuss advantages and disadvantages of weapon systems with some knowledge backing you up.
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Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.04 18:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: McRoll Edit: lasers need that changeable range advantage because they are left with nearly pure EM damage when they use Scorch which hits the highest natural resists on armor tankers and strong shield resistances on Minmatar T2 ships. Furthermore they use the most cap and heavy pulse lasers are very difficult to fit so you often have to downgrade to smaller tier, like on armor tanked Harbinger.
Once you got that come back again and discuss advantages and disadvantages of weapon systems with some knowledge backing you up.
Oh give me a break, Amarr people cried about the EM resist thing and they did an across the board nerf to EM and Explosive resists to ALL ships shields and armor, and that was when there was nothing wrong with lasers.
As for tough Amarr fitting requirements, all top tier weapons are hard to fit on all ships, except for maybe autocannons.
Quote: Learn about how falloff works and recognize that not every Minmatar ship has a bonus to falloff. In order to do meaningful damage, every ship without a falloff bonus has to come as close to his enemy as a Gallente ship
Must be a good thing that those ships are fast and nimble, unlike plated trimarked Gallentes, thats the reason why many gallente armor rep bonused ships are fit with a shield tank.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.01.04 18:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rastigan
Must be a good thing that those ships are fast and nimble, unlike plated trimarked Gallentes, thats the reason why many gallente armor rep bonused ships are fit with a shield tank.
That reason would be because active tanks in general are garbage when more than 2 people are involved in a fight, and half of those platforms lack the slot layout to actually fit a credible active tank without gimping themselves completely.
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Xia Xiou
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Posted - 2011.01.04 19:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Rastigan
Must be a good thing that those ships are fast and nimble, unlike plated trimarked Gallentes, thats the reason why many gallente armor rep bonused ships are fit with a shield tank.
That reason would be because active tanks in general are garbage when more than 2 people are involved in a fight, and half of those platforms lack the slot layout to actually fit a credible active tank without gimping themselves completely.
Also, those same Gallente ships with a rep bonus are the few ships in the game with an active tank bonus and weapons that use cap. That's not the best combo in the world. Although that really has nothing to do with hybrids as it does with goofy Gallente ship design.
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McRoll
Minmatar The Legion of Darkness
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Posted - 2011.01.04 19:33:00 -
[23]
Its not like all Minmatar ships are shield tanked, is it? Those who are armor tanked are only slightly faster than Gallente in reality. For a specific comparison you need to compare many ships with each other, you cannot just say Gallente is always slower than Minmatar. Also, shield tanked Minmatar ships have crappy EHP and will die if you manage to catch them, otherwise they kite you, like it is intended.
Oh and one should determine whether were speaking about a 1v1 situation, gang or fleet. Imo Gallente is best in small gangs with a webbing ship like Rapier, there they can bring their DPS on the enemy and it will matter. For BS fleets Mega might be crappy but again, who flies BS these days in PVP?
And as far as 1v1 goes, Gallente has some excellent ships like Ishkur, Taranis, Daredevil... also the Vigilant with its webber bonus and 850 DPS from a cruiser hull doesn't sound too shabby. The Proteus is an excellent T3 and my corpmate melts everything on gate with his Vindicator, you just have to know where and how to put those ships to work.
I even consider training hybrids just for Daredevil and Vigilant. Stop whining and adapt, seriously. Back then when Minmatar were really crappy, nobody complained about hybrids, now they want a piece from the pie.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.01.04 19:39:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 04/01/2011 19:41:02
Originally by: McRoll For BS fleets Mega might be crappy but again, who flies BS these days in PVP?
I wouldnt say it is crappy at all, for small-scale RR BS gangs as well as without RR it is a terrific battleship that doesnt need to hide from the minnie platforms at all.
The thing is, as numbers grow, the amarr platforms outclass everything else by a huge margin.
But then again, amarr are the masters of battleship combat, while they are typically very weak in the small hull classes, especially on the frigate level.
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McRoll
Minmatar The Legion of Darkness
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Posted - 2011.01.04 19:47:00 -
[25]
Exactly and this is needed for the game for keeping it interesting. Gallente pilots have a niche and this is either solo or small gang department. Anyway, I think most of the whine comes from bad performance of large hybrids because in the BS class speed issues have the most impact. In frigate and cruiser class hybrids are totally fine.
So the issue is rather limited and applies only to certain ships and that can be solved by adjusting the ships or giving hybrids some flavour that doesn't necessarily increase their range or DPS output.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2011.01.04 19:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
But then again, amarr are the masters of battleship combat, while they are typically very weak in the small hull classes, especially on the frigate level.
T1 maybe but they have some relly nice options even on the smaller sizes crusader/slicer are two very good frigs the malediction and the vengeance are not that bad either, zealot curse pilgrim are all at the top in their class
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William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.01.04 19:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: InColdBlood Edited by: InColdBlood on 04/01/2011 16:28:05 How about this for a solution:
Take a look at the word hybrid. It means a melt between two systems.
Lets go from there...
... And have hybrids be a mix of energy-based and projectile-based weapons, using capacitor to energize and/or contain the charges in ammo before firing them!
...OH WAIT. -
I troll stupid people. |
Marlin ClownFish
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Posted - 2011.01.04 20:02:00 -
[28]
Absolutely love my Kronos for mission running - soloing level 4's and mission arc. The 4 * 425mm Railgun II's fit great with other modules. Hits anything from 0-60km with Anti-matter including orbiting cruisers.
Having read about rails sucking, I looked at switching to lasers on a Paladin but I'm am having trouble fitting Tachyon II's with top skills. I'm now looking at Mega Beam II's instead which I guess it the equivalent of 350mm Railgun II's on a Kronos. Why the difficulty fitting fitting the Tachyon II's?
Haven't tried Minmitar or Caldari fits for Marauders but I'm wondering if my Kronos can be beat for missioning. Yes, it's easy to pump modules into EFT and come up with more DPS but reality is often different to EFT's theoretical DPS.
I do like the idea of no ammo for lasers and also no cap for using projectiles. I'm more than happy at the moment with my rails.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.01.04 20:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Marlin ClownFish Having read about rails sucking, I looked at switching to lasers on a Paladin but I'm am having trouble fitting Tachyon II's with top skills. I'm now looking at Mega Beam II's instead which I guess it the equivalent of 350mm Railgun II's on a Kronos. Why the difficulty fitting fitting the Tachyon II's?
actually wrong.
there is no straight-up equivalent to the 350mm on lasers. tachyon is equivalent to either a 575mm railgun or a 2200mm arty.
thing is, these two callibers don't exist, which means tachys are a tier above pretty much the 1400mm arty and the 425mm rail. Megabeam is the equivalent on lasers. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.05 02:37:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 05/01/2011 02:37:26
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Marlin ClownFish Having read about rails sucking, I looked at switching to lasers on a Paladin but I'm am having trouble fitting Tachyon II's with top skills. I'm now looking at Mega Beam II's instead which I guess it the equivalent of 350mm Railgun II's on a Kronos. Why the difficulty fitting fitting the Tachyon II's?
actually wrong. Really, really wrong.
there is no straight-up equivalent to the 350mm on lasers. tachyon is equivalent to either a 575mm railgun or a 2200mm arty.
thing is, these two callibers don't exist, which means tachys are a tier above pretty much the 1400mm arty and the 425mm rail. Megabeam is the equivalent on lasers.
Quoted for truth. If only people did actually look at numbers before making inane comments. ------------
+15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG |
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