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Tethraa KaiSuun
Caldari KaiSuun Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.31 15:33:00 -
[1]
The last few days, I have been battling a trade bot. A particular item that I found that moves --VERY-- fast (within minutes) with a 21% spread between buy and sell orders has been soaking up a bit of my time.
What I noticed at first is that for this particular item, there was both a buy and sell order for 14 items at all times. These particular orders kept on 1 isking me. No big deal, market pvp, understood. However, I thought the low count of 14 cycling every 15-20 minutes was kind of... odd. Even if it was a trader that didn't have much starting capital, after a couple of hours, he/she could have been able to bump it up to 50 or 100 units per order and the risk of this item tanking in price before they could sell off 100-200 items was extremely low. So, I kept watching and kept up on the 1 isk war.
Finally, I decided to get tricky. One of my buy orders was a little over half fulfilled. So, I created a second sell order and spaced out 5 minute timer that way I can 1 isk this person every 2.5 minutes rather than every 5. Not 3 minutes later, the same person placed a second sell order with the same quantity of 14 units to do the same with me.
I immediately bought 1 of his items so I could identify the character name. Looked him up and added him to my watch list. This guy has been on for the last 3 days that I have been watching him.. 23 hours a day. Playing the 1 isk war with anyone that undercuts (sell orders) or overbids (for buy orders) with very low quantities that are continually reissued. The orders seem to always be modified within 1 minute after the 5 minute market modifier timer is up.
The only way I could compete was to ... change up the timer and splitting orders. Hoping that I had more market coverage than what I believe to be a bot. I'm sure others have had this issue to. How do you deal with it?
NOTE: I initially was hoping that this person was in a private corporation and was hoping that they hauled as well . However, this particular trade bot is only 16 days and was still in the original npc starter corp this character was born into. ~~ Tethraa KaiSuun |
Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.31 15:45:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun
This guy has been on for the last 3 days that I have been watching him.. 23 hours a day.
So you are saying that you are a bot as well?
If you have been online watching him and updating orders, are you sure it isn't another real person doing the exact same thing to you?
If you can do it, so can someone else.
Also, multiple buy/sell orders is what a lot of traders use that way they can bypass the 5 minute update timer. There is nothing botlike about that.
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Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2010.12.31 15:46:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun
This guy has been on for the last 3 days that I have been watching him.. 23 hours a day.
So you are saying that you are a bot as well?
If you have been online watching him and updating orders, are you sure it isn't another real person doing the exact same thing to you?
If you can do it, so can someone else.
Also, multiple buy/sell orders is what a lot of traders use that way they can bypass the 5 minute update timer. There is nothing botlike about that.
Because we all know there are not bots in EvE...
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.31 15:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Because we all know there are not bots in EvE...
No, I'm sure there are all kinds of bots in eve. However calling someone a bot when you are doing the exact same thing they are doing is rather stupid.
"OMG They are updating their orders every X minutes and are online 23 hours a day. I know this because I'm doing the exact same thing!!!!1111oneevelin!!!"
Rather stupid isn't it?
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PinkFish
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Posted - 2010.12.31 16:08:00 -
[5]
Edited by: PinkFish on 31/12/2010 16:08:53 Beaker77 has a good point. Nothing about the behavior absolutely screams bots.
I'd like to add that the "always logged on" thing is not proof of a bot. On days where I am trading actively I will not log out even when I go to bed. Many partially active traders will use watchlists and will update orders after their primary competition goes offline.
A trader being on seemingly 23/7 during a school break is definitely no indicator of being a bot.
That said the oddly consistent numbers for the order pair does suggest you are dealing with a bot. Try pushing the bot around and find its limitations. Maybe if you outbid by more then .01 the bot will shut down. Maybe you can move the buy order up to 1% below sell order and dump 14 items, then move the sell order to 1% above the old buy order and rebuy the same 14 items, rinse, repeat. If it is a bot don't expect it to intelligently adapt and take advantage of your move in position.
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Tethraa KaiSuun
Caldari KaiSuun Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.31 16:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Because we all know there are not bots in EvE...
No, I'm sure there are all kinds of bots in eve. However calling someone a bot when you are doing the exact same thing they are doing is rather stupid.
"OMG They are updating their orders every X minutes and are online 23 hours a day. I know this because I'm doing the exact same thing!!!!1111oneevelin!!!"
Rather stupid isn't it?
You're exactly right. Which is why I said that I think this person is a bot. Also, I'm not a complete tool. I have been watching this person every so often at work and have contacted another person who is having the same problem with this individual.
I also never said that I was doing the same thing. Great how people jump to conclusions without any form of investigating or speaking to other people who are competing against the same individual. Also, noticed how I didn't mention the person's name? Mainly because there is no way for me to undeniably tell.
Thinking that there are no bots is "rather stupid". Do a google search. Not that difficult. Once again, I wasn't outing a person. I was asking how others deal with it. Myself, I'm just chugging along with it creating split orders to reset the market timer. Others seem like to ****, moan and whine and deny of their existence. ~~ Tethraa KaiSuun |
Tethraa KaiSuun
Caldari KaiSuun Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.31 16:32:00 -
[7]
Originally by: PinkFish Edited by: PinkFish on 31/12/2010 16:08:53 Beaker77 has a good point. Nothing about the behavior absolutely screams bots.
I'd like to add that the "always logged on" thing is not proof of a bot. On days where I am trading actively I will not log out even when I go to bed. Many partially active traders will use watchlists and will update orders after their primary competition goes offline.
A trader being on seemingly 23/7 during a school break is definitely no indicator of being a bot.
That said the oddly consistent numbers for the order pair does suggest you are dealing with a bot. Try pushing the bot around and find its limitations. Maybe if you outbid by more then .01 the bot will shut down. Maybe you can move the buy order up to 1% below sell order and dump 14 items, then move the sell order to 1% above the old buy order and rebuy the same 14 items, rinse, repeat. If it is a bot don't expect it to intelligently adapt and take advantage of your move in position.
PinkFish - and this is exactly why I did several things to arrive at my conclusion. I log in every hour or so while at work. I modify my orders and wait 5 minutes. So far, in the past three days, this particular person will immediately change them. So, they definatly are not idle - which is what I first thought.
Then I decided to find out the other people that I was bidding against. I convo'ed two of them - only 1 replied and was getting annoyed at the same thing I was. So, we have been trading information back and forth the last 2 days and found out that the person I think is a bot .. is actively modifying their orders through out the 23 hour day.
This, combined with a 16 day old character in a newb corp, with at least 1 billion at their fingertips only placing orders in very small quantities of the same exact quantity each time led me to believe that the character is a bot. Either that .. or the account is being shared with more than one person.
Also, your suggestion is actually .. a very good one. There may be a x% margin that the software is allowed to underbid the sell order on. So, I may need to try it with a couple different order amounts.
NOTE: Please note - I wasn't trying to find out how to identify a bot or "out" anyone. I could care less. Normally, when someone pulls this and is in a private corp, I'll just wardec them. I am simply looking for different ways to combat the machine.
~~ Tethraa KaiSuun |
Tethraa KaiSuun
Caldari KaiSuun Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.31 17:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: PinkFish Edited by: PinkFish on 31/12/2010 16:08:53 Beaker77 has a good point. Nothing about the behavior absolutely screams bots.
I'd like to add that the "always logged on" thing is not proof of a bot. On days where I am trading actively I will not log out even when I go to bed. Many partially active traders will use watchlists and will update orders after their primary competition goes offline.
A trader being on seemingly 23/7 during a school break is definitely no indicator of being a bot.
That said the oddly consistent numbers for the order pair does suggest you are dealing with a bot. Try pushing the bot around and find its limitations. Maybe if you outbid by more then .01 the bot will shut down. Maybe you can move the buy order up to 1% below sell order and dump 14 items, then move the sell order to 1% above the old buy order and rebuy the same 14 items, rinse, repeat. If it is a bot don't expect it to intelligently adapt and take advantage of your move in position.
UPDATE: The spread between buy and sell has now been pushed to less than a 1% margin. The individual is still aggressively placing orders. I am positive that they must be loosing money with broker fees and taxes. I also noticed that others have backed off their sell orders a bit and this person is not readjusting their own. Obviously, I'm not the only one that sees this and there will be several people that will be making some money once this person takes a break after realizing that they are loosing money.
~~ Tethraa KaiSuun |
Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.31 17:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun
... Wall of text ...
Take your evidence, and petition it. If you are lucky it will be banned in a week or so. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shields are like pants, they're supposed to come off. Armor is like the condom once its gone ur ****ed |
Tethraa KaiSuun
Caldari KaiSuun Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.31 17:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lost Hamster
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun
... Wall of text ...
Take your evidence, and petition it. If you are lucky it will be banned in a week or so.
Meh... why bother. That wasn't the point, nor do I care what happens to them. Besides, earlier suggestion worked and will earn me about 200 extra million by simply waiting a day or two.
~~ Tethraa KaiSuun |
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2010.12.31 18:09:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun
Originally by: Lost Hamster
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun ... Wall of text ...
Take your evidence, and petition it. If you are lucky it will be banned in a week or so.
Meh... why bother. That wasn't the point, nor do I care what happens to them. Besides, earlier suggestion worked and will earn me about 200 extra million by simply waiting a day or two.
So you are saying you think there is a bot at work, and you are intending to profit from the operation of said bot?
Sounds like you might want to petition that for your own protection. á á
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Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2010.12.31 18:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun
Originally by: Lost Hamster
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun ... Wall of text ...
Take your evidence, and petition it. If you are lucky it will be banned in a week or so.
Meh... why bother. That wasn't the point, nor do I care what happens to them. Besides, earlier suggestion worked and will earn me about 200 extra million by simply waiting a day or two.
So you are saying you think there is a bot at work, and you are intending to profit from the operation of said bot?
Sounds like you might want to petition that for your own protection.
\
Ehm no? Profiting from a suspected market bot operated by another user, is in no way, shape or form against the EULA. Would be the same as picking up the dropped pieces after you blew up a macro miner.
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2010.12.31 19:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Thoraemond So you are saying you think there is a bot at work, and you are intending to profit from the operation of said bot? Sounds like you might want to petition that for your own protection.
Ehm no? Profiting from a suspected market bot operated by another user, is in no way, shape or form against the EULA. Would be the same as picking up the dropped pieces after you blew up a macro miner.
Incidentally profiting from some else's suspected possible misconduct might be okay, but is it still okay when you plan to profit from what you say you subjectively believe is misconduct?
I don't have a horse in this race... the advice about petitioning is not my own invention. I am simply relaying from what I read previously in the context of planning to profit from "harvesting" macro miners.
The advice seems to be that if CCP ends up reviewing one's actions in relation to exploiters (e.g., because one was involved in a number of transactions to one's own profit, for example), one would probably be in a much stronger position if one had petitioned the suspect behaviour before profiting from it. á á
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PinkFish
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Posted - 2010.12.31 20:32:00 -
[14]
Edited by: PinkFish on 31/12/2010 20:33:37
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Originally by: Thoraemond So you are saying you think there is a bot at work, and you are intending to profit from the operation of said bot? Sounds like you might want to petition that for your own protection.
Ehm no? Profiting from a suspected market bot operated by another user, is in no way, shape or form against the EULA. Would be the same as picking up the dropped pieces after you blew up a macro miner.
Incidentally profiting from some else's suspected possible misconduct might be okay, but is it still okay when you plan to profit from what you say you subjectively believe is misconduct?
I don't have a horse in this race... the advice about petitioning is not my own invention. I am simply relaying from what I read previously in the context of planning to profit from "harvesting" macro miners.
The advice seems to be that if CCP ends up reviewing one's actions in relation to exploiters (e.g., because one was involved in a number of transactions to one's own profit, for example), one would probably be in a much stronger position if one had petitioned the suspect behaviour before profiting from it.
There is really no way to tell apart a bot from a dumb player with too much time. In either case the best solution is to exploit the behavior. It has nothing to do with bots, advanced trading is learning to make your isk from other traders.
@OP: Now that you know the bot has no minimum percent either buy up the market or push it back down. Say there is an actual 20% spread in the market. Place your buy order at 1% below the sell and wait for outbid. Sell. Drop your buy order back down and place your sell order at 1% above the new low buy, buy. You should be able to move 14 items every 10-15 minutes.
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Clementina
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.12.31 21:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Ehm no? Profiting from a suspected market bot operated by another user, is in no way, shape or form against the EULA. Would be the same as picking up the dropped pieces after you blew up a macro miner.
I think the doctrine is that you are supposed to petition if you are able to hijack the macro for your benefit. For your macro mining example, destroying the macro miner's barge and looting it doesn't cause you to have to petition (Assuming that the robot doesn't come back with barges to destroy ad infinium). However, if you are able to steal their ore, allow them to fill the can again, then steal their ore again; Then you would have to petition.
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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2010.12.31 22:23:00 -
[16]
Bots bots bots. Can anyone explain to me how a bot would know that it has been undercut and needs to update the price? It's not exactly like constructing a mining bot that will go through a certain sequence of keyboard commands in a repeated loop. On the market, when another player updates their order, that action is not interacting with your account or your set of sell orders in any way that can be detected by a bot.
----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / LLSE Stock Market |
Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.31 22:30:00 -
[17]
Good question Cista.
Off the top of my head I can think of something like OCR that would check the order at the top of the buy/sell list and if the numbers are different than your current price realize it's been outbid.
Maybe some sort of "packet sniffer" that analyzes the data as it comes through your modem/ethernet.
I have also personally seen orders that update every 5 minutes even if they were the lowest sell order already. There are a lot of stupid people in EVE, but I highly doubt many of them are that stupid.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.12.31 23:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Mainly because there is no way for me to undeniably tell.
You didn't buy one of the items off him and bookmark who he is?
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Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
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Posted - 2011.01.01 00:05:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun I'm sure others have had this issue to. How do you deal with it?
I stop wasting my time and trade something else.
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PinkFish
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Posted - 2011.01.01 01:20:00 -
[20]
Edited by: PinkFish on 01/01/2011 01:24:27
Originally by: Cista2 Bots bots bots. Can anyone explain to me how a bot would know that it has been undercut and needs to update the price? It's not exactly like constructing a mining bot that will go through a certain sequence of keyboard commands in a repeated loop. On the market, when another player updates their order, that action is not interacting with your account or your set of sell orders in any way that can be detected by a bot.
And how is it a player knows when he has been undercut and needs to update an order?
Originally by: Breaker77 Edited by: Breaker77 on 31/12/2010 22:52:48 Good question Cista.
Off the top of my head I can think of something like OCR that would check the order at the top of the buy/sell list and if the numbers are different than your current price realize it's been outbid.
Edit: Screen reading software of some sort?
Maybe some sort of "packet sniffer" that analyzes the data as it comes through your modem/ethernet.
I have also personally seen orders that update every 5 minutes even if they were the lowest sell order already. There are a lot of stupid people in EVE, but I highly doubt many of them are that stupid.
No reason to use OCR. EVE has a built in export market button. The bot just has to manipulate the market screen then hit the export button and read the file. Bots undercutting themselves just shows that the barrier to entry is so low that creating a bot is easier then writing a program capable of remembering what your price is for 5 minutes at a stretch. This is why I still advocate removing the export market button!
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Tethraa KaiSuun
Caldari KaiSuun Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.01 03:11:00 -
[21]
evelibcache.. no need to export market data at all.
There are several tools that already scan the cache files of market data that you browse and pipe the data into a database to allow real time monitoring, charting and graphing. This bypasses the need to click the "Export" button.
The actions of "touching" the item to refresh the cache itself would be similar to how macro programs trigger button events with macro mining. The same with order modifications.
This is not any new technology. Ebay bots have been doing this for over a decade. Which is why they put in the maximum bid in the first place, because ebay bid-watch programs would immediately up-bid ebay users within seconds.
Anyway, the point of this thread was not how to detect or point fingers, it was to find new ways to deal with it and I did. Thanks Pink!
~~ Tethraa KaiSuun |
PinkFish
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Posted - 2011.01.01 06:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun evelibcache.. no need to export market data at all.
There are several tools that already scan the cache files of market data that you browse and pipe the data into a database to allow real time monitoring, charting and graphing. This bypasses the need to click the "Export" button.
The actions of "touching" the item to refresh the cache itself would be similar to how macro programs trigger button events with macro mining. The same with order modifications.
This is not any new technology. Ebay bots have been doing this for over a decade. Which is why they put in the maximum bid in the first place, because ebay bid-watch programs would immediately up-bid ebay users within seconds.
Anyway, the point of this thread was not how to detect or point fingers, it was to find new ways to deal with it and I did. Thanks Pink!
The point in removing the export button wouldn't be to get rid of all bots, because people will find a way. But if you raise the barrier to entry there will be a drastic reduction in the number of bots. The idea is that if a bot maker can't manage to even track his own price for five minutes at a stretch and has to update regardless of who's on top then he probably won't manage to write a bot that ties into libevecache.
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Juneau Chokis
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Posted - 2011.01.01 08:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lord Jita
Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun I'm sure others have had this issue to. How do you deal with it?
I stop wasting my time and trade something else.
Sup.
Well yeah, there's really sick traders who don't really have any real life at all. Everyone has been through that. Then there's traders whose real life is station trading.
Pretty simple solution: Find something else to trade in. If someone is willing to completely dominate a market and has the time to commit to it, he will.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.01.01 08:51:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 01/01/2011 08:51:41
Originally by: PinkFish But if you raise the barrier to entry there will be a drastic reduction in the number of bots.
Bold assumption that needs to be backed up.
AFAIK there are no decent market bots for sale, so if you have one chances are you did write it yourself and are a fairly tech-literate anyways.
Reading the cache is more convenient than using the export market logs feature from the programmer's perspective. And while "cache reading" may sound pretty complicated it is just as easy as reading the CSV files directly (because all the hard work is done by libevecache or Reverence).
Cache Reader + Simple keyboard/mouse macro is enough for a simple market bot (think about how you update your orders and you'll see that it's a fairly simple sequence of clicks and text input with fairly fixed offsets everywhere).
If you want more and don't mind shelling out a subscription fee everybody's favorite macro toolkit offers support for reading the market and modifying/placing orders as well (look around and you will find a few incomplete/redacted sample scripts) - without relying on the client's cache, exported market logs, the API or any other "official" features at all.
(and as long as your bot is mildly successful 8$/month for the toolkits it relies upon isn't a serious deterrent)
The difference between market bots and mining or mission running bots is that the market is much closer to a zero-sum game than mining or rat bounties. A good market bot can probably earn you much more than you could get by selling it to clueless people who would go on to ruin markets everywhere and force CCP into taking action against market bots.
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Gillaboo
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Posted - 2011.01.01 11:23:00 -
[25]
Again, the simplest answer is usually the right one. Some people really do play 12,18 and 23 hours a day...some of them are market traders...just accept it and move on.
-------------------------------------------------------- This space For Rent. |
Dev Jah
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Posted - 2011.01.01 11:50:00 -
[26]
http://eve-search.com/thread/1355162 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFv93mNI86w http://www.publicdemands.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?4020-EVE-Online-Tradebot
Dont know if the clip is real, but lets say it is and a couple of people have these things running, its likely not some ****** sitting 23/7 rather these bots running 23/7.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2011.01.01 13:22:00 -
[27]
No need to export, pointer to the heap and the structure of the data and you're all set.
As for thwarting them, open trade windows with the suspect. see if that stops em.
The Real Space Initiative - V7
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PinkFish
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Posted - 2011.01.01 13:34:00 -
[28]
Edited by: PinkFish on 01/01/2011 13:34:29
Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 01/01/2011 08:51:41
Originally by: PinkFish But if you raise the barrier to entry there will be a drastic reduction in the number of bots.
Bold assumption that needs to be backed up.
AFAIK there are no decent market bots for sale, so if you have one chances are you did write it yourself and are a fairly tech-literate anyways.
Reading the cache is more convenient than using the export market logs feature from the programmer's perspective. And while "cache reading" may sound pretty complicated it is just as easy as reading the CSV files directly (because all the hard work is done by libevecache or Reverence).
Cache Reader + Simple keyboard/mouse macro is enough for a simple market bot (think about how you update your orders and you'll see that it's a fairly simple sequence of clicks and text input with fairly fixed offsets everywhere).
If you want more and don't mind shelling out a subscription fee everybody's favorite macro toolkit offers support for reading the market and modifying/placing orders as well (look around and you will find a few incomplete/redacted sample scripts) - without relying on the client's cache, exported market logs, the API or any other "official" features at all.
(and as long as your bot is mildly successful 8$/month for the toolkits it relies upon isn't a serious deterrent)
The difference between market bots and mining or mission running bots is that the market is much closer to a zero-sum game than mining or rat bounties. A good market bot can probably earn you much more than you could get by selling it to clueless people who would go on to ruin markets everywhere and force CCP into taking action against market bots.
Obviously there is no way to back up what I am talking about without running a survey of all market macro users, which just isn't feasible. I think my core assumption is reasonable, however. Generally the average level of intelligence over a population, like grades, is going to form a bell shaped curve. If something is more difficult those with success fall further on the right side of the curve, thus to a point large reductions in success can be expected from small increases in intelligence requirement.
All CCP needs to do is increase this difficulty slightly while offering tools better suited for legitimate community use (improved API), and the number of market bots will decrease.
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Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2011.01.01 14:37:00 -
[29]
Im not too sure whether this ou mention is a bot, and breakers logic is sound. I stopped station trading a long time ago due to bots, its pretty obvious CCP either dont care or cant prove it, or both. The bots i am talking about will take your sell orders at a certain price, 2 seconds after being placed, 23 hours a day, and they are still there even after being reported.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.01 17:47:00 -
[30]
Try to open 1) a conversation. 2) a fleet invite. 3) a trade window.
And see if it stops trading, these will have no impact on a human player, but could kill a OCR bot.
What happens if you narrow the margin ? Try narrowing until it's buy and sell orders collide, if you can get it trading with it's self it will start paying a fortune in broker fees and tax.
Use a small order to drive down it's sells once low enough buy out the stock at the heavy discount. Then drive up the buy price until it's above what you paid + fees + a nice profit and dump the stock. Rinse and Repeat.
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