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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.22 20:02:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion
1. You don't need dozens to compete. Even a single character will provide competition and an income stream. Maybe not as much, having multiple characters is simply away of making more isk faster. The advantage a T2 BPO owner has exists, but is not that significant.
I have repeatedly explained this: - T2 BPO owners DO have advantages in large markets - both in terms of ISK/unit and Player Time/unit. - T2 BPO owners have ENORMOUS advantages in smaller markets by virtue of being given the power to totally shutting everyone else out of the market - T2 BPOs are very low risk investments that retain value extremely well and in fact increase in value as time goes on. Furthermore, they produce extraordinary amounts of interest. - T2 BPOs destroy the illusion that the game is not rigged against you - especially in smaller markets.
Quote:
2. With invention monopolies (or more accurately cartels) can no longer form. Even if they did, they'd have a competitive fringe keeping prices down. That is, even if a T2 BPO owner was able to monopolize a given segment of the market there is really no effective barrier to entry, so if prices start to rise inventors enter the market driving prices back down. So, this too is simply wrong.
Of course you cannot push your profits too high - but you can push all competition out of your market. The market simply isn't properly functioning as long as T2 BPOs are in the state they are in.
Quote: So, all I see is you whining about things that I don't see as that big a deal.
All I see you doing is justifying people who are basically cheating in a multiplayer game.
Quote: Yeah, some guy is making more isk than a pure inventor, he also has billions tied up in that endeavor meaning he'll be doing it no matter what hoping to get his investment back.
No, he'll sell the item if he wants his investment back, and laugh at his enormous interim profits.
Quote: The pure inventor can always shift to inventing something else or even another activity entirely.
Amusingly enough, so can the T2 BPO owner.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.22 20:48:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/12/2010 03:55:56 Of course you have made a profit with invention. My contention is not that invention is not profitable. My contention is that T2 BPOs represent an unfair distribution in costs and effort, and can potentially lead to outright "monopolies" of smaller markets. You will never do profitable invention in one of these markets.
As to the comment about buying dozens of characters across many accounts - that math and contention was covered in the other thread with Akita T. Amusingly, many people seemed to think it was the right way to go to compete with a T2 BPO owner. So if you find the argument vapid... well frankly so did I. Obviously the playing field should be more even and the Guy With The Golden Gun And Aimbot should give up his Cheaty McGoo toys.
-Liang
You have posted some counter argument to that? beside the current "So if you find the argument vapid... well frankly so did I."?
With the same initial investment and a bit more work you way more than the owner of 1 T2 BPO.
So, to repeat it, wha tis your counter argument to that?
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Lirinas
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Posted - 2010.12.22 21:02:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Akita T You mean... CCP decided long ago T2 BPO's are good enough, Akita T created a thread to make people take a different direction with their misguided whineage that WILL be ignored by CCP.
FOR INSTANCE, whine about moon mineral bottlenecks and the wasteful nature of the invention process, THAT at least has some chance of being at lest remotely palatable.
Pretty much my opinion also. I don't support any changes to T2 BPO's unless the entire system is overhauled. That includes the true monopoly in EVE, Moon Mining.
And some of the numbers & facts I've seen people tossing around are flat-out wrong (on both sides of the fence). Please reference the QEN from 2009 - 2nd Quarter.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.22 21:17:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion
1. You don't need dozens to compete. Even a single character will provide competition and an income stream. Maybe not as much, having multiple characters is simply away of making more isk faster. The advantage a T2 BPO owner has exists, but is not that significant.
I have repeatedly explained this: - T2 BPO owners DO have advantages in large markets - both in terms of ISK/unit and Player Time/unit.
Very small advantage for an huge investment. Do your math and you will see that it is true.
Originally by: Liang - T2 BPO owners have ENORMOUS advantages in smaller markets by virtue of being given the power to totally shutting everyone else out of the market
False, if a marginal market they can make unprofitable to invent but they can't shut anyone off. And that only virtue of it being from starter an unprofitable market for inventors. BPO owners don't push inventors out of the T2 100 mn armor plates market, 100 mn rolled tungsten armor plates do that. For most of the marginal items the meta 4 version is good enough and common enough to cover demand if you remove the T2 BPO. No one would care to pay the added invention price.
Originally by: Liang - T2 BPOs are very low risk investments that retain value extremely well and in fact increase in value as time goes on. Furthermore, they produce extraordinary amounts of interest.
Low risk acceptable (but every patch is a risk). Extraordinari interest? False. With most BPO you can get as much or more with a T1BPO
Originally by: Liang - T2 BPOs destroy the illusion that the game is not rigged against you - especially in smaller markets.
So if someone has worked to get something before you the game is rigged? PFT.
Originally by: Liang
Quote:
2. With invention monopolies (or more accurately cartels) can no longer form. Even if they did, they'd have a competitive fringe keeping prices down. That is, even if a T2 BPO owner was able to monopolize a given segment of the market there is really no effective barrier to entry, so if prices start to rise inventors enter the market driving prices back down. So, this too is simply wrong.
Of course you cannot push your profits too high - but you can push all competition out of your market. The market simply isn't properly functioning as long as T2 BPOs are in the state they are in.
I repeat, false.
Originally by: Liang Quote: So, all I see is you whining about things that I don't see as that big a deal.
All I see you doing is justifying people who are basically cheating in a multiplayer game.
So "having something I don't have2 is cheating for you.
Originally by: Liang Quote: Yeah, some guy is making more isk than a pure inventor, he also has billions tied up in that endeavor meaning he'll be doing it no matter what hoping to get his investment back.
No, he'll sell the item if he wants his investment back, and laugh at his enormous interim profits.
Again the "enormous" interim profit. I repeat do some math and see what is the return of investment. For the same investment a guy running multiple invention jobs will get a much higher return.
Originally by: Liang Quote: The pure inventor can always shift to inventing something else or even another activity entirely.
Amusingly enough, so can the T2 BPO owner.
-Liang
Not if he want to use the BPO.
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.12.22 21:36:00 -
[35]
Liang,
The do not have an enormous advantage. They can only shut out inventors by keeping prices below the price that would provide profits to inventors. Really. This narrative of yours makes absolutely no sense.
Yes, T2 BPO olders can earn a higher profit, but it is not assured. You could also buy a BPO have the item nerfed and then be S.O.L.
The game is not rigged against you because of T2 BPOs. You can buy one if your work hard at it like most T2 BPO owners. The price is determined by invention, not T2 BPOs.
Quote: Of course you cannot push your profits too high - but you can push all competition out of your market. The market simply isn't properly functioning as long as T2 BPOs are in the state they are in.
But that competition can always come back and it will. So invention, even in this case, puts an effective upper limit on the price that T2 BPO owners can charge. In short, invention neuters the price setting power of T2 BPO owners.
Quote: All I see you doing is justifying people who are basically cheating in a multiplayer game.
<--------- Petitions are over that way
File a petition then. Of course you'll be laughed at cause T2 BPOs are a legit part of the game and are not in any way cheating. While they enjoy an advantage over inventors there is also substantial risk in purchasing a T2 BPO. For example, right now the zealot is an awesome ship. If you are going to go out an do stuff in a sniper HAC gang that is the "go to" ship. Such a T2 BPO right now is very valuable. But the game is also unbalanced. Gallente have a crap snipe HAC ship by comparison. So what if zealots get a nerf and the deimos gets a buff? If you just bought a zealot T2 BPO you'd see a huge portion of your investment evaporate instantly. The amount of time to pay off that initial investment just went up. With a bad enough nerf you might never recoup it.
Quote: No, he'll sell the item if he wants his investment back, and laugh at his enormous interim profits.
Let me fix that for you....
Quote: No, he'll might be able to sell the item if he wants his investment back, and be relieved at his slightly higher than invention profits.
Quote: Amusingly enough, so can the T2 BPO owner.
Yes, yes he can, but then he is essentially admitting that his T2 BPO lost massive value to the point where he'll likely never recoup the initial investment.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.22 21:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Very small advantage for an huge investment. Do your math and you will see that it is true.
No, it is not a 'very small advantage' - it's an enormous advantage as the QEN above showed. 33% of the T2 market produced by 10% of the people with only a tiny fraction of the effort. It's a very large advantage in material and labor costs - it's just that this advantage can't be extended to cover very large markets. However, this advantage is plenty big enough to cover smaller markets and draw enormous profits even in larger markets.
In either case, it represents a rift in the game that people view as unfair, and just like any game that's viewed as unfair, people will refuse to play. This is true in life (visit a preschool some time to watch it in action), and it's true in Eve.
Will T2 BPOs kill the game? Of course not. But they're still destructive to it.
Originally by: Liang False, if a marginal market they can make unprofitable to invent but they can't shut anyone off.
Look how you exactly proved my point. You are aware that this is a perfect example of a dysfunctional market?
Quote:
Low risk acceptable (but every patch is a risk). Extraordinari interest? False. With most BPO you can get as much or more with a T1BPO
The introduction of secondary markets doesn't change the basic imbalance. Anything you can do, they can do as well. But you can't do anything they can do - because the rules of the game are stacked against you.
Quote:
Originally by: Liang - T2 BPOs destroy the illusion that the game is not rigged against you - especially in smaller markets.
So if someone has worked to get something before you the game is rigged? PFT. So "having something I don't have2 is cheating for you.
The rules of the game have fundamentally changed yet some older players maintained their previous advantage. The current situation is exactly like CCP removing learning skills and leaving the older players with them. And then introducing a system by which new players can buy the chance to increase their SP... and then providing it to the older players too.
Look how stupid you are.
Quote:
Again the "enormous" interim profit. I repeat do some math and see what is the return of investment. For the same investment a guy running multiple invention jobs will get a much higher return.
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Investments include your personal time.
Quote: Not if he want to use the BPO.
There's nothing that says he can't do both - and do so more successfully than you because he doesn't have to spend the time + energy that you would to stay in both markets.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.22 22:02:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: False, if a marginal market they can make unprofitable to invent but they can't shut anyone off.
Look how you exactly proved my point. You are aware that this is a perfect example of a dysfunctional market?
So, if I would want to enter the icecream making business as an upstart and would try to "copy" one of the industrial food magnates' recipie and end up with it costing more than they sell it for in the shop, is that also an example of a dysfunctional market ? Granted, it's not a perfect analogy, because in RL you can improve the quality or advertise to draw more attention to your particular brand that is somehow different from everything on the market (while in EVE you are limited to exact copies of whatever already exists), but the main point still stands - it's NOT a dysfunctional market, it's just a market with not enough demand to make room for you, and you should simply go into one which HAS room for you instead. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.12.22 22:05:00 -
[38]
Quote: WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Investments include your personal time.
You are vastly over stating the time component. Yes, logging in once and starting 1 job is fine, but then he wont make nearly as much as the inventor, not by a long shot. The only way for a T2 BPO owner to make more than an inventor is to use his BPO and invent. If he picks just the former, he'll be outproduced and out earned by the inventor.
Now if the inventor's time is that valuable, he'd be better off looking for alternative sources of isk including buying and selling GTCs.
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.12.22 22:11:00 -
[39]
Quote: Look how you exactly proved my point. You are aware that this is a perfect example of a dysfunctional market?
Now, its an example of limit pricing. So long as invention provides a credible threat of entry then the incumbent (the T2 BPO holder) will charge a price that is just at that range to discourage entry. Anything higher than that and you have entry.
Is this dysfunctional? Well if the marginal cost of the incumbent is lower than the potential entrant then the incumbent will earn some economic rents. However, in this case there are no rents given the massive fixed cost associated with the T2 BPO.
So...no, he proved how you are wrong.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.22 22:13:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/12/2010 22:13:45
Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion
The do not have an enormous advantage. They can only shut out inventors by keeping prices below the price that would provide higher profits than other market areas to inventors, and they can totally shut them out by keeping the price just above invention prices with negative ME BPCs + invention costs + POS fuel costs.
I thought I'd fix your post up a bit.
Quote: Yes, T2 BPO olders can earn a higher profit, but it is not assured. You could also buy a BPO have the item nerfed and then be S.O.L.
You can also download a cheat for counter strike and have your account banned.
Quote: The game is not rigged against you because of T2 BPOs. You can buy one if your work hard at it like most T2 BPO owners. The price is determined by invention supply and demand, not T2 BPOs.
Thought I'd fix that up a bit.
Quote:
But that competition can always come back and it will. So invention, even in this case, puts an effective upper limit on the price that T2 BPO owners can charge. In short, invention neuters the price setting power of T2 BPO owners.
More accurately T2 BPOs are setting the prices for inventors by virtue of flooding the market with items.
Quote: <--------- Petitions are over that way
;-)
Quote: Of course you'll be laughed at cause T2 BPOs are a legit part of the game and are not in any way cheating.
Keep telling yourself that.
Quote: Yes, yes he can, but then he is essentially admitting that his T2 BPO lost massive value to the point where he'll likely never recoup the initial investment.
One is not the exclusion of the other.
-Liang
Ed: Formatting -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.12.22 22:37:00 -
[41]
Liang,
If you are going to fix posts, try to do so in a coherent manner. Sure, a T2 BPO can shut out inventors, but he can't raise prices, if he does then the inventors will enter and no longer be shut out. Simple as that, really.
Quote: You can also download a cheat for counter strike and have your account banned.
T2 BPOs are not an exploit/cheat. Never have been, and never will be.
Quote: Thought I'd fix that up a bit.
Of course, it is supply and demand, but the supply is largely based on invention. Thus the impact of T2 BPOs in setting the price is not significant. Remove T2 BPOs and price wouldn't change.
Quote: More accurately T2 BPOs are setting the prices for inventors by virtue of flooding the market with items.
Factually wrong. Two thirds of (non-ammo) t2 items are produced via invention.
Quote: One is not the exclusion of the other.
But the point still remains, it means he just lost massive amounts of wealth since he has switched over to another production line.
The bottom line is that T2 BPOs do convey some additional advantages in terms of isk/unit sold. However, countering that benefit is the massive fixed costs. Add on the just the right nerf and those fixed costs become sunk costs.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.22 22:41:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote: But that competition can always come back and it will. So invention, even in this case, puts an effective upper limit on the price that T2 BPO owners can charge. In short, invention neuters the price setting power of T2 BPO owners.
More accurately T2 BPOs are setting the prices for inventors by virtue of flooding the market with items.
You're both right and you're both wrong.
For high demand items, INVENTORS set the price, and T2 BPO owners just sell at whatever price inventors have set.
For slightly less high demand items, even if just a couple of inventors enter a certain item's market, it's STILL the presence of the inventor factor that determines the price point of that particular T2 item.
Those two situations above are those where having a T2 BPO of the item can be somewhat of a good thing. Of course, unless you're swimming in ISK and you have absolutely no idea what to do with it, your best course of action would still be to just SELL the damn T2 BPO at the current market prices, and use whatever ISK you got to do something else that's much more lucrative. But hey, let's say you do have a metric truckload of ISK and no idea what to do with it except "make more"... then sure, hang on to or even get more of this particular type of T2 BPO... that is, if you plan to stick around for a long time, or if you plan to resell the T2 BPO for about the same price you purchased it for, or both. And barring ANY changes that would make it lose value, in which case, you're screwed again.
For even less demand items, inventors start to not even come across the market (or they only do so by accident). T2 BPO owners are STILL top-capped at whatever level inventors would start coming in, so even if no inventor is present, the upper limit of the price is STILL determined by the existence of invention, so price hovers between near-BPO-cost and near-invention cost.
Being the owner of such a T2 BPO is "meh" at best, and there are very few items that fit in this category.
For extremely low demand items, where there's less demand than even what existing T2 BPOs can easily produce, the prices go down towards near-BPO-cost levels. And who exactly sets that bottom cost ? It's not T2 BPO owners, it's moon miners and reactors !
It's not good at all to be an owner of such a T2 BPO. Most of the time you probably won't even have it in production. This is actually the category most T2 BPOs actually belong to, number-wise.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.12.22 22:53:00 -
[43]
Quote: For extremely low demand items, where there's less demand than even what existing T2 BPOs can easily produce, the prices go down towards near-BPO-cost levels. And who exactly sets that bottom cost ? It's not T2 BPO owners, it's moon miners and reactors !
It's not good at all to be an owner of such a T2 BPO. Most of the time you probably won't even have it in production. This is actually the category most T2 BPOs actually belong to, number-wise.
But we should still screw these people over just because Some think that stoning a virgin in the town square will result in good crops. It really the same mentality, when you get right down to it.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.22 22:58:00 -
[44]
Well, to be fair, they make so little ISK out of it that they won't even notice "getting screwed" by having the T2 BPO turn into a "Ye olde gold-framed former T2 BPO" item.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Tuleingel
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Posted - 2010.12.23 06:32:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Akita T Well, to be fair, they make so little ISK out of it that they won't even notice "getting screwed" by having the T2 BPO turn into a "Ye olde gold-framed former T2 BPO" item.
Well - should they get removed it would be only fair to turn the current BPO's into similar items, just without production capabilities in addition to whatever compensation is handed out for them.
In some markets however having your BPO removed would sting a bit. Few bil a month for pushing a button once per month and installing long production job is pretty noticeable passive income. Ok well it's a bit more complex than that ofc as there is some hauling and selling the pile of T2 involved in there as well ofc. Yes you can do more than that through invention but you have to grind through such pile of button smashing that it's hard to consider it a 'passive' income. With high volume items if you have put ME 1 .. 2 on your BPO you can just undercut the inventors enough so they dont feel the urge to 0.01 isk you all the time and the items sell alright over the month.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.23 07:37:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Venkul Mul Very small advantage for an huge investment. Do your math and you will see that it is true.
No, it is not a 'very small advantage' - it's an enormous advantage as the QEN above showed. 33% of the T2 market produced by 10% of the people with only a tiny fraction of the effort. It's a very large advantage in material and labor costs - it's just that this advantage can't be extended to cover very large markets. However, this advantage is plenty big enough to cover smaller markets and draw enormous profits even in larger markets.
33% of all modules and ships in number of items. So the guy with one T2 100mn Armor plate that produce 20 of them in a day counts like 40 inventor building hulks. As usual the QUEN don't geve enough data.
Look the hulk production: 90% are made from invention , HAC 75% producet by inventors, interceptors 16% by inventors.
You have trouble getting why BPO owner have a so heavy presence in the interceptor market? The isk are in producing hulk and the good HAC, but the BPO owner to use the BPO need to produce what his BPO produce, so they produce the bad HACs and the bad interceptors. As the guy producing an interceptor from a BPO has a faster building time than the guy inventing hulks the net effect is that of a higher production, but not a higher gain as the margin on interceptors is way smaller than that of a hulk.
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Kaarnakivi
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Posted - 2010.12.23 08:49:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
33% of all modules and ships in number of items. So the guy with one T2 100mn Armor plate that produce 20 of them in a day counts like 40 inventor building hulks. As usual the QUEN don't geve enough data.
Look the hulk production: 90% are made from invention , HAC 75% producet by inventors, interceptors 16% by inventors.
You have trouble getting why BPO owner have a so heavy presence in the interceptor market? The isk are in producing hulk and the good HAC, but the BPO owner to use the BPO need to produce what his BPO produce, so they produce the bad HACs and the bad interceptors. As the guy producing an interceptor from a BPO has a faster building time than the guy inventing hulks the net effect is that of a higher production, but not a higher gain as the margin on interceptors is way smaller than that of a hulk.
You have valid point, however having a BPO does not prevent the BPO owner doing the invention as well (or even instead of using a BPO) should he feel he can make better profit per build slot there with smaller amount of effort. The BPO owner does not NEED to make the item. They CAN make the item if it makes economic sense.
Yet for some reason the bad interceptors and HAC's and even the crappy 50 mm T2 armor plates get done and sold on market, so there must be some economic reason there for them to be made. Majority of people having a T2 BPO should have had enough brains to figure out how to get one so it would stand to reason they would not make those items if they could do better when doing something else. I like to believe only handful of them are guys who bought RMT isk to get their 'play EVE free for rest of the time' ticket only to find out they bought so crappy item BPO that making it does not cover even the material cost.
As far as I understand most of the lamentation about T2 BPO's is about having effectively monopoly over some markets where BPO's are capable of covering biggest part of demand for the item shutting out inventors from those markets. Yeh inventors can do something else, same as BPO owners. Yet that des not change the fact that the guy with a BPO has 'monopoly' in some item. And nothing inventor does can change that. Other than ofc buying his own T2 BPO - but there is a problem with that - for that one of those who 'have' should be willing to give up his spot. And what happens if they dont want to do that ? Well nothing - it's not like you can do anything about it.
I myself are relatively neutral in T2 BPO vs invention thingy. Tilting mildly towards not liking the T2 BPO's for the reasons Liang posts about the T2 BPO's have risen - ie. making 'rules of play' not the same for all participants of the game. Yet as it does not affect me directly for now I'm not feeling all emo about them. I'm more of a 'solo' type who does not make stuff for my living.
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Nicky's Tomb
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Posted - 2010.12.23 13:39:00 -
[48]
Originally by: lateralvelocity NOT BROKEN MORONS
Wow! What are articulated and informed post. I must say, once I started reading your post I couldn't put it down. Your points are carried in depth and concisely. Well done!
I shall subscribe to your wisdom in future.
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lateralvelocity
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Posted - 2010.12.23 22:11:00 -
[49]
Edited by: lateralvelocity on 23/12/2010 22:15:45 We should have some mechanism where everybody had a chance to get one.... like a lottery..... O wait
nevermind
Quote: Originally by: lateralvelocityNOT BROKEN MORONS Wow! What are articulated and informed post. I must say, once I started reading your post I couldn't put it down. Your points are carried in depth and concisely. Well done! I shall subscribe to your wisdom in future.
It has been explained several hundred times over the last year dumbass. log in and do the work quit crying on the forums like a 13 year old girl.
I am tired of morons, in particular you. Go blow a ****ing goat like your mamma taught you asswipe
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.24 06:12:00 -
[50]
Originally by: lateralvelocity
We should have some mechanism where everybody had a chance to get one.... like a lottery..... O wait
Feel free to enlighten me how I would have had a possibility to get one through lottery if I started oh ... lets say 2009.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.24 07:11:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: lateralvelocity We should have some mechanism where everybody had a chance to get one.... like a lottery..... O wait
Feel free to enlighten me how I would have had a possibility to get one through lottery if I started oh ... lets say 2009.
I think you're missing the point lateralvelocity was trying to make... namely that the lottery itself was the mistake, and exactly what other method of distribution of new BPOs would you like to get instead of a lottery... _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.24 08:00:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: lateralvelocity We should have some mechanism where everybody had a chance to get one.... like a lottery..... O wait
Feel free to enlighten me how I would have had a possibility to get one through lottery if I started oh ... lets say 2009.
I think you're missing the point lateralvelocity was trying to make... namely that the lottery itself was the mistake, and exactly what other method of distribution of new BPOs would you like to get instead of a lottery...
It's a real big stretch to think that's what lateralvelocity meant - especially given that "log in and do the work" jab at the end. You're letting your own biases blind you. And if you must have ways to distribute T2 BPOs - have them drop from officer spawns, faction spawns, exploration, or be inventable. The ways to introduce items into the game are damn near endless.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.24 08:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Liang Nuren The ways to introduce items into the game are damn near endless.
Hey, why don't we have them as prizes for the alliance tournaments instead ? And make it "whatever group of people want to participate" tournaments. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.24 08:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Liang Nuren The ways to introduce items into the game are damn near endless.
Hey, why don't we have them as prizes for the alliance tournaments instead ? And make it "whatever group of people want to participate" tournaments.
The introduction of a T2 BPO per year isn't going to resolve the issue. I stand by what I said: they need to be freely available or removed.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.24 09:09:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Liang Nuren The introduction of a T2 BPO per year isn't going to resolve the issue. I stand by what I said: they need to be freely available or removed.
Removing them is simply not an option, you DO NOT just remove something somebody purchased without compensation ; offering compensation will be extremely problematic, to the point of not being worth the trouble it will create. Them becoming freely available would be better, but it will inevitably lead to the disappearance of the inventor profession, which is arguably NOT a good idea either. You'd better focus on ways to render them nearly completely irrelevant without bothering to alter them in any way.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2010.12.24 19:14:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The introduction of a T2 BPO per year isn't going to resolve the issue. I stand by what I said: they need to be freely available or removed.
"Freely available"? You do know that means FREE don't you? Nothing in the game aside from the rookie frigates are freely available. It always takes some effort, such as training up science skills or putting a laser on a roid to get something. T2 BPOs are already available, just buy them from someone else.
I'm really disappointed by the arguments you make here Liang. I don't care that you label the advantages that T2 BPO owners have as "unfair". That label has little meaning in the game and people labor mightily to obtain these sorts of advantages in a variety of markets, not just T2 gear. I don't care that T2 BPOs trade for a high price, that turns out to balance the advantages of the BPO greatly. And T2 BPOs do not "destroy the illusion that the game is not rigged against you", whether or not you own them. For that last thing, there have to be an advantage which you can never obtain. But by merely buying a T2 BPO, you acquire this alleged advantage.
My view is that the T2 BPO doesn't have the most important symptom of an unbalanced advantage. Namely, they aren't an "i-win" button or a "must own". When you get rich enough, you don't automatically think "Now I need to get T2 BPOs".
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.24 22:02:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Akita T
Removing them is simply not a good option - you DO NOT just remove something somebody purchased without compensation ; offering compensation will be extremely problematic, to the point of not being worth the trouble it will create.
Its not my fault they invested in dubious god mode game mechanics. The risk of the nerfing/removal of T2 BPOs has always existed.
Originally by: Tasko Pal "Freely available"? You do know that means FREE don't you?
What an interesting interpretation of that. Freely modifies available - which is to say that "freely available" is as opposed to unavailable. It refers to the lack of restriction on distribution and creation.
Quote:
I don't care that you label the advantages that T2 BPO owners have as "unfair". That label has little meaning in the game and people labor mightily to obtain these sorts of advantages in a variety of markets, not just T2 gear.
People act to take advantage of other players - that is the nature of any competitive game. Where "fairness" comes into it is when the rules themselves are rigged. T2 BPOs break the rules of the game.
Quote: For that last thing, there have to be an advantage which you can never obtain.
No... there doesn't.
Quote: My view is that the T2 BPO doesn't have the most important symptom of an unbalanced advantage. Namely, they aren't an "i-win" button...
With regards to invention - you know, that action that most people that make T2 items do - they most certainly are.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Comor Dunathis
TerraNovae Workers Trade Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.26 09:44:00 -
[58]
Here's how we get rid of the big issue about T2 BPOs:
Permaban anyone who complains about how ___________(insert QQ-related adjective here) T2 BPOs are.
Then, no more problems.
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.12.26 14:15:00 -
[59]
T2 BPO's have not been unfair since invention capped their selling prices.
They would be unfair IF they could not be traded. But as they can be traded, they will always be balanced by their opportunity cost.
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.12.26 14:45:00 -
[60]
I also find it incredibly funny that every one of these threads has a title like "A New Idea to Fix T2 BPO's"... as if that's what has been keeping CCP from nerfing them: the lack of a method to accomplish such.
Your ideas on "how" are borderline irrelevant. First you need to demonstrate that they should be nerfed to begin with, and obviously none of you have done so or it would have happened by now. In fact, this argument has been going on for so long that the lack of a change can be taken as an answer from CCP. If they agreed with you, the change would have been made a long time ago.
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