Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Junta Saavo
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:19:00 -
[1]
Do they need a change? The only real benefit to using one before Incursion was the tractor beam bonus. Now, they are pretty much subpar to most faction BS's pirate and navy. Since they are basicly a carebear ship I feel they need some sort of pve boost that puts them above the faction BS's in that respect. c/d?
|
TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:26:00 -
[2]
Edited by: TimMc on 17/12/2010 00:25:39 Or give them sensor strength boost and let us grief with them.
|
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:28:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Junta Saavo Do they need a change? The only real benefit to using one before Incursion was the tractor beam bonus. Now, they are pretty much subpar to most faction BS's pirate and navy. Since they are basicly a carebear ship I feel they need some sort of pve boost that puts them above the faction BS's in that respect. c/d?
PvE certainly doesn't need any boosting. It's already too damn easy.
The real questions are all about PvP
Personally, I flew all Marauders except Golem for PvP, Kronos and Paladin definitely got an edge over other ships - thanks to web bonus, but in the end, it all comes down to the fact that these ships aren't mobile enough, lock targets too slow (cloak is almost mandatory), and just too easy to blob (blobs usually have some ECM support).
Pirate faction bs seems better chance since they been upgraded. I doubt I'd ever use Marauder again unless they change.
|
Junta Saavo
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:36:00 -
[4]
Quote: PvE certainly doesn't need any boosting. It's already too damn easy.
The real questions are all about PvP
Personally, I flew all Marauders except Golem for PvP, Kronos and Paladin definitely got an edge over other ships - thanks to web bonus, but in the end, it all comes down to the fact that these ships aren't mobile enough, lock targets too slow (cloak is almost mandatory), and just too easy to blob (blobs usually have some ECM support).
Pirate faction bs seems better chance since they been upgraded. I doubt I'd ever use Marauder again unless they change.
That's my point, they offer no benefit over faction ships anymore in pvp (which they never did) or pve since the noctis was released. I know pve is easy already but they need to give them some other sort of utility/bonus or they're pretty much useless. Or as suggested, boost the sensor strength so they are viable in pvp.
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: TimMc Or give them sensor strength boost and let us grief with them.
I'd really like to see this happen, and am also in favor of a general Kronos boost.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Isaac Apylon
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:58:00 -
[6]
I do not understand people who say that Marauders are obsolete now that the Noctis is out. They have entirely different roles. Can the Noctis destroy ships with near top-of-the-line efficiency as it salvages? Can the faction BS's salvage as they go? Didn't think so.
Marauders are not supposed to kill stuff, and then salvage. They're supposed to salvage as they kill stuff, minimizing the time spent on both. If you salvage as you kill, you don't have to come back and salvage later. If you don't want to salvage as you go, or you have a second account to run a Noctis at the same time, then sure, Marauders aren't for you.
But for their intended role, they work great. They gank almost as fast the faction BS's, and can salvage reasonably well, too. It's incredibly convenient for those of us who either don't have an alt or who don't want to run two accounts to get the most of of their missions.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/ |
Fulbert
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 01:00:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Fulbert on 17/12/2010 01:00:24 Kronos is really weak Seriously it's way more easy to make level4s with a double-rep Proteus. Boost railguns, or give Kronos more tank (so we could drop one or two defense modules to fit tracking enhancers and magstabs). -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist |
Junta Saavo
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 01:17:00 -
[8]
Quote: I do not understand people who say that Marauders are obsolete now that the Noctis is out. They have entirely different roles. Can the Noctis destroy ships with near top-of-the-line efficiency as it salvages? Can the faction BS's salvage as they go? Didn't think so.
Marauders are not supposed to kill stuff, and then salvage. They're supposed to salvage as they kill stuff, minimizing the time spent on both. If you salvage as you kill, you don't have to come back and salvage later. If you don't want to salvage as you go, or you have a second account to run a Noctis at the same time, then sure, Marauders aren't for you.
But for their intended role, they work great. They gank almost as fast the faction BS's, and can salvage reasonably well, too. It's incredibly convenient for those of us who either don't have an alt or who don't want to run two accounts to get the most of of their missions.
You don't need two accounts. It's much quicker and more efficient to warp back to a station, grab a noctis, and go back and loot and salvage. You state yourself they gank ALMOST as quick as a faction BS, almost does not cut it. As it staands, its MUCH quicker and more efficient to destroy everything in a faction BS, a nightmare for example, and then return in a noctis; this makes marauders pretty much obsolete.
|
Isaac Apylon
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 01:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Junta Saavo You don't need two accounts. It's much quicker and more efficient to warp back to a station, grab a noctis, and go back and loot and salvage. You state yourself they gank ALMOST as quick as a faction BS, almost does not cut it. As it staands, its MUCH quicker and more efficient to destroy everything in a faction BS, a nightmare for example, and then return in a noctis; this makes marauders pretty much obsolete.
That's the thing. By the time you go back through a few session change timers, grab your Noctis, fly back to the mission, grab all the wrecks, and salvage them, I've already grabbed a new mission and finished it. The thing about Marauders is that you salvage as you go. Just go through the wrecks as you go through all the red crosses, and by the time the rats are dead, you've likely salvaged all the wrecks that are worth salvaging. There's no need to come back.
Yes, faction BS's can blitz through the missions faster (although to be honest it's not a huge difference), but they can't salvage as well. Mission completion times with Marauders (Kronos aside) are only slightly longer than times with Faction BS's, and if you intend to salvage, then you're saving time with a Marauder.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/ |
Junta Saavo
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 02:07:00 -
[10]
Quote: That's the thing. By the time you go back through a few session change timers, grab your Noctis, fly back to the mission, grab all the wrecks, and salvage them, I've already grabbed a new mission and finished it. The thing about Marauders is that you salvage as you go. Just go through the wrecks as you go through all the red crosses, and by the time the rats are dead, you've likely salvaged all the wrecks that are worth salvaging. There's no need to come back.
Yes, faction BS's can blitz through the missions faster (although to be honest it's not a huge difference), but they can't salvage as well. Mission completion times with Marauders (Kronos aside) are only slightly longer than times with Faction BS's, and if you intend to salvage, then you're saving time with a Marauder.
As someone who has marauders trained to 5, every bs skill trained to 5 AND ORE industrial trained to 5, I can tell you this is a load of horse crap. The speed at which faction BS's can tear through a mission, the range and speed of a noctis' tractors, and the speed advantage of the noctis itself comletely outweighs the time it takes for a couple session changes and warps. If you don't see this either a. your skills are lacking or b. you're doing it all wrong
|
|
Star P'ergish
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 03:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Junta Saavo
Quote: That's the thing. By the time you go back through a few session change timers, grab your Noctis, fly back to the mission, grab all the wrecks, and salvage them, I've already grabbed a new mission and finished it. The thing about Marauders is that you salvage as you go. Just go through the wrecks as you go through all the red crosses, and by the time the rats are dead, you've likely salvaged all the wrecks that are worth salvaging. There's no need to come back.
Yes, faction BS's can blitz through the missions faster (although to be honest it's not a huge difference), but they can't salvage as well. Mission completion times with Marauders (Kronos aside) are only slightly longer than times with Faction BS's, and if you intend to salvage, then you're saving time with a Marauder.
As someone who has marauders trained to 5, every bs skill trained to 5 AND ORE industrial trained to 5, I can tell you this is a load of horse crap. The speed at which faction BS's can tear through a mission, the range and speed of a noctis' tractors, and the speed advantage of the noctis itself comletely outweighs the time it takes for a couple session changes and warps. If you don't see this either a. your skills are lacking or b. you're doing it all wrong
I can tell you THAT is a load of horse crap. You obviously do not know what you're talking about. PVE wise marauders are fine.
|
Junta Saavo
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 03:35:00 -
[12]
Quote: I can tell you THAT is a load of horse crap. You obviously do not know what you're talking about. PVE wise marauders are fine.
While you're arguement is vvery sound, I'm gonna stand by my experience...
|
Star P'ergish
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 03:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Junta Saavo
Quote: I can tell you THAT is a load of horse crap. You obviously do not know what you're talking about. PVE wise marauders are fine.
While you're arguement is vvery sound, I'm gonna stand by my experience...
It happens your experience is contrary to mine and the rest of marauder pilots. Stop trolling and stop lying.
|
Junta Saavo
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 03:45:00 -
[14]
Quote: It happens your experience is contrary to mine and the rest of marauder pilots. Stop trolling and stop lying.
Again you provvide absolutely nothing as proof and claim to speak for all other marauder pilots...What would be my motive to lie or troll? I'm wondering what yours is...
|
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 05:07:00 -
[15]
give marauders ridiculous agility and speed boosts, I want to fly them around like they were cruisers, would make using blasters on a kronos worthwhile.
and NO U! in regards to faction ship + noctis vs marauder
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 05:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Junta Saavo As someone who has marauders trained to 5, every bs skill trained to 5 AND ORE industrial trained to 5, I can tell you this is a load of horse crap. The speed at which faction BS's can tear through a mission, the range and speed of a noctis' tractors, and the speed advantage of the noctis itself comletely outweighs the time it takes for a couple session changes and warps. If you don't see this either a. your skills are lacking or b. you're doing it all wrong
Have you considered that you may be doing it wrong with your Marauder? I collect 80%+ of the loot when I run a mission with my Marauder. Furthermore, I do this without slowing down my kill times - and I'm not noticeably slower than a faction battleship in my mission times. This implies that all the time you spend getting in your noctis, warping to the mission, looting, and salvaging comes is for 20% of the loot and 100% of the salvage from a mission.
And now for an example: Suppose for a moment that 30% of your potential ISK comes from loot/salvage when you run missions. Suppose that a Marauder is able to collect 80% of this value without slowing down Suppose that a Faction BS completes missions 10% faster but collects none of the loot Suppose an average mission with a Marauder takes 15 minutes (4 missions/hr) Suppose it takes 3 minutes to undock, loot, and salvage an entire mission with a Noctis
Suppose the Marauder makes 75M ISK/hr: - 52.5M ISK/hr from missions - 22.5M ISK/hr from loot
Faction BS Stats: - 58M ISK/hr from missions
Faction BS + Noctis: - 1 of Marauder missions = (15 + 3)*4=72 minutes - 58M ISK/72min from missions - 28M ISK/72min from loot - Convert the Faction BS + Noctis to ISK/hr: 60/72 * (58+28) = 71.5M ISK/hr
I feel that I am being extremely optimistic that a faction BS is on average 10% faster than a Marauder, and that it only takes you 3 minutes to loot+salvage an entire mission. I feel slightly pessimistic about the Marauder only collecting 80% of the loot.
Anyway. I would still approve of a general sensor strength improvement to Marauders.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 05:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Anyway. I would still approve of a general sensor strength improvement to Marauders.
awww, I liked my idea better
|
Isaac Apylon
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 05:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Junta Saavo Unmitigated bull**** or stupidity. Take your pick.
I had a response to this, but Liang said it much better than I could have.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/ |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 05:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Liang Nuren Anyway. I would still approve of a general sensor strength improvement to Marauders.
awww, I liked my idea better
Me too, I didn't see it before I posted.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 06:36:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Isaac Apylon
I had a response to this, but Liang said it much better than I could have.
Same here. What's more, Liang is just ball parking it this time. He did a rather extensive analysis of the isk/hour difference comparing a Mach and a Vargur a while ago that factored in the operational cost of using normal and RF ammo. They ended up surprisingly close, and that was without accounting for loot and salvage.
People like him are going to get tired of giving the complicated correct answer eventually though, and threads like this pop up almost daily...
ùùùùù
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
|
|
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 07:11:00 -
[21]
is it really true that high sec mission runner can make 70 mil an hour?
I thought it was like 20 mil. If it's true, then that's unbelievably broken. You make LESS in 0.0! Tell me this was a made up number
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 07:16:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/12/2010 07:16:24
Originally by: Ephemeron is it really true that high sec mission runner can make 70 mil an hour?
Of course.
-Liang
Ed: In fact, I was being a bit pessimistic of potential incomes so it wouldn't start a fight. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 07:36:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/12/2010 07:16:24
Originally by: Ephemeron is it really true that high sec mission runner can make 70 mil an hour?
Of course.
-Liang
Ed: In fact, I was being a bit pessimistic of potential incomes so it wouldn't start a fight.
*Sigh* and I thought my respect for CCP couldn't get any worse. I'm not even gonna try anymore. There's no hope
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 07:40:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ephemeron *Sigh* and I thought my respect for CCP couldn't get any worse. I'm not even gonna try anymore. There's no hope
I dunno, people make 100M ISK/hr in 0.0 - and its a better 100M ISK/hr than in high sec because they don't have to worry about how to convert their LP into ISK or compete with other players in the market. Furthermore, I don't think CCP can possible anticipate all the ways in which their content can be 'exploited' and made easy by ingenious players.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 13:42:00 -
[25]
This is so weak, I opend a thread about exactly the same thing half a month ago and got flamed....
Now everyone agress...
Ah well, I am all for it.
|
King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 14:04:00 -
[26]
To be honest, I don't think the argument as to whether a maruader is marginally better or not to a faction BS + noctis is really that important. Mardauders were already terribly limited ships (lvl4 boats almost exclusively). The noctis is more of the final nail in the coffin than anything else. Marauders need a boost.
The very first thing on the list needs to be sensor strength. The vargur (for example) has some pretty nice pvp stats if it weren't for the fact that it can't lock anything that packs even a flight of EC-300's. That must change. I believe sensor strength on marauders should be increased to that of faction BS's, somewhere between navy and pirate versions.
Another sticking point is the powergrid and cpu. They were geared towards cap rechargers and tractor beams, not heavy neuts/nos and cap injectors. So they need a big buff to fittings. Don't think that I'm suggesting my vargu should be able to fit a MWD, 800mm AC's, large cap booster and 3 heavy neuts though. I'm not. But it should be able to fit downgraded guns and all those items without RCU's or co-processors. Alternatively it should be able to fit all of those minus the MWD or perhaps with medium neuts but a MWD. Something along those lines. Tight fittings, but workable for pvp without empty slots.
It's been said a million times before but the other t2 BS's, the black ops, also need a general buff. The above fixes would correct them as well. However if marauders were given these buffs, I think the BO's should be completely redone to be EW ships rather than straight gank/tank ships. BS sized recons I think would be best for them.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 14:35:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Tippia on 17/12/2010 14:37:28
Originally by: Ephemeron is it really true that high sec mission runner can make 70 mil an hour?
I thought it was like 20 mil. If it's true, then that's unbelievably broken. You make LESS in 0.0! Tell me this was a made up number
Let's put it this way: in a less-than-optimal Tengu (which is certainly good, but not the best mission-running shipà and I fit it suboptimally, as mentioned), and with a severe case of wallet-management/accounting OCD that often makes me wait for a full wallet tick to get all the bounties accounted for (which, incidentally, leaves me plenty of time to go nuts with the Noctis), I rake in 40û50M/h in raw ISK and LP plus maybe 25% (so another 10û15M ISK) worth of loot and salvage per hour.
àand again, I'm not even close to doing it efficiently.
Anyway, as for the topic itself, I'll quote myself from a different thread:
Want to kill everything, really quickly? Faction BS. Want to kill and loot/salvage as you go? Marauder. Want to loot/salvage? Noctis.
There's actually very little overlap between these three jobs, and picking one should depend on what you want out of your little outings. None of them need to be changed to accommodate for any of the others.
The Noctis, for its part, is an excellent ship to chuck your alt in while it's training for bigger things (or as a very quickly trained sideline for your market/industry alts) so that you can go for a combination dual-boxing the first and third functions. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Mike712
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 14:50:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Junta Saavo
Quote: I do not understand people who say that Marauders are obsolete now that the Noctis is out. They have entirely different roles. Can the Noctis destroy ships with near top-of-the-line efficiency as it salvages? Can the faction BS's salvage as they go? Didn't think so.
Marauders are not supposed to kill stuff, and then salvage. They're supposed to salvage as they kill stuff, minimizing the time spent on both. If you salvage as you kill, you don't have to come back and salvage later. If you don't want to salvage as you go, or you have a second account to run a Noctis at the same time, then sure, Marauders aren't for you.
But for their intended role, they work great. They gank almost as fast the faction BS's, and can salvage reasonably well, too. It's incredibly convenient for those of us who either don't have an alt or who don't want to run two accounts to get the most of of their missions.
You don't need two accounts. It's much quicker and more efficient to warp back to a station, grab a noctis, and go back and loot and salvage. You state yourself they gank ALMOST as quick as a faction BS, almost does not cut it. As it staands, its MUCH quicker and more efficient to destroy everything in a faction BS, a nightmare for example, and then return in a noctis; this makes marauders pretty much obsolete.
No it's definitely not faster to come back in a noctis and salvage after you've completed a misssion, most of the time a marauder will complete a mission as fast as a faction BS, if not faster in some cases.
|
Mona X
Caldari Red Federation
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 15:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 17/12/2010 00:25:39 Or give them sensor strength boost and let us grief with them.
Fit smartbombs and grief falcons. :P
Join Eve-Online, meet interesting people, grief them. |
General Trajan
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2010.12.17 15:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mike712
No it's definitely not faster to come back in a noctis and salvage after you've completed a misssion, most of the time a marauder will complete a mission as fast as a faction BS, if not faster in some cases.
blockade [blood raiders]. if you intend to salvage everything in this mission room with wrecks at all hell different ranges, you still think a 40km tractor on a marauder is going to clean that whole room faster than a noctis at L5 sitting pretty in the middle and grabbing wrecks from 80km? even if your marauder was AB fitted too? and that's not the only mission like this either.
i don't see how on earth you (and others) can think that a noctis with 4-80km tractor range capability AND 4-salvagers with more cargo bay room capability is inferior to a marauder's 1-40km tractor range and 2-salvagers on average for every room. but if you make your living off of selling marauders then i can see why some would make this statement.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |