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Thermopylaee
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Posted - 2010.12.07 12:43:00 -
[1]
So... how does one go about doing it? Or rather, how does a large group of you do it? From what I've seen on killboards, they are one-stop win-machines. Any hope for us non-super pilots?
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Diesel47
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Posted - 2010.12.07 13:04:00 -
[2]
Another super carrier maybe?
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ROXGenghis
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Posted - 2010.12.07 13:05:00 -
[3]
Originally by: ThermopylaeeAny hope for us non-super pilots?[/quote
No. Game balance is tipped towards the "more isk" side of the equation.
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Millie Clode
Amarr Insert Cool Name Here
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Posted - 2010.12.07 13:41:00 -
[4]
1. Bring a hictor, hope the SC pilot is an idiot and panic logoffskis. Then you have 15 minutes to kill it...have lots of DPS on hand
2. Bring lots of hictors and BS/dreads
3. Get an SC of your own and join one of the groups that drops blobs of them. ---------- Who, me? |
Hidden Snake
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:33:00 -
[5]
while it is easy to pop single carrier in subcap ships, it is very hard to pop single supercap in subcaps as they are pwnmachines of current days. I was in group of ~25 BSs with some backup which were not able to get wyvern (we died one by one).
1) get another supercap or group of caps (preferably dreads backed by 2 triaged carriers). 2) blueball him if needed
WE ARE in STASIS NOW!
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heheheh
Phoenix Club
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Posted - 2010.12.07 15:56:00 -
[6]
How well do dreads do at damaging moms nowadays ?
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Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2010.12.07 16:16:00 -
[7]
If you cant kill him with your small fleet, quickly write email on forum and say location. Also yell in all systems for help. I am sure lots of people will come to help you, even if they are hostiles, i am sure they will forget this temporarily until the supercapital is dead. Fleet them all in and light a cyno to get even more help from other cap pilots.
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2010.12.07 20:17:00 -
[8]
^^This.
As long as they are not friends of the carrier, they will want a piece of it.
The trick is to run away after its dead before all the crazies turn on you.
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Selgeren
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Posted - 2010.12.08 04:42:00 -
[9]
Ask an entity with a big supercap fleet if they want an easy gank. PL and until recently Cry Havoc love to kill stupid pilots with shiny toys.
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Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.12.08 18:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: heheheh How well do dreads do at damaging moms nowadays ?
Pretty good, assuming he's logged off or his fighterbombers aren't around to **** them.
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Xolornem Srrpep
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Posted - 2010.12.08 18:32:00 -
[11]
Sniperdreads are a pretty good answer in some cases.
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Dimitryy
Gallente Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.08 20:21:00 -
[12]
Well, if the situation is right, and you catch him alone either on jump-in, or trying to gank someone solo, you can try to bait a logoff.
Basically, bring in all your tackle and logi, but only a bit of dps, so the guy thinks "oh no, theres too much tackle to kill, but i can surely log off and escape in time". If/when he logs, immediatly bring in the rest of your fleet/caps/titans/star destroyers, whatever, and hope you can take him down in the 15 minutes.
I've never got any myself like this, but i have seen it happen several times post hp buff, especially on pos's. ------------------------------------------
Jack Blackstone > Dimitryy I hope you die. |
Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2010.12.23 02:40:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 23/12/2010 02:41:16 Solo supercap is a dead supercap. Literally all you need is three hictors to keep it scrammed in lowsec, or just a couple light dictors in 0.0, a curse and fifteen RRBS. Thats literally all it takes. Of course its like you're shooting a large tower, but if you neut them hard enough, their tank turns off. So you don't even need dreads. Supercaps are a lot easier to kill than most people think, its just you don't find any Grade A morons floating around in them that would be solo.
When a supercap has a support fleet, then you have problems. Then again, if you're engaging a supercap and its support fleet with a smattering of subcaps, you'll never succeed without NC's numerical advantage, and even then you would need other supercaps to help break the remote rep your target is getting.
tl;dr, Supercaps aren't one-stop 'win machines.' They're extremely vulnerable, all you have to know is how to engage them properly or you die. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.23 02:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 23/12/2010 02:41:16 Solo supercap is a dead supercap. Literally all you need is three hictors to keep it scrammed in lowsec, or just a couple light dictors in 0.0, a curse and fifteen RRBS. Thats literally all it takes. Of course its like you're shooting a large tower, but if you neut them hard enough, their tank turns off. So you don't even need dreads. Supercaps are a lot easier to kill than most people think, its just you don't find any Grade A morons floating around in them that would be solo.
When a supercap has a support fleet, then you have problems. Then again, if you're engaging a supercap and its support fleet with a smattering of subcaps, you'll never succeed without NC's numerical advantage, and even then you would need other supercaps to help break the remote rep your target is getting.
tl;dr, Supercaps aren't one-stop 'win machines.' They're extremely vulnerable, all you have to know is how to engage them properly or you die.
So they're not one-stop 'win machines' but you need 20 people who know what they're doing, in specific ships, to kill one person in a supercap? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2010.12.23 03:05:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 23/12/2010 03:07:14
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
So they're not one-stop 'win machines' but you need 20 people who know what they're doing, in specific ships, to kill one person in a supercap?
Yes. Keep in mind, the target you're shooting at more than likely has more EHP than a small control tower, so you're never going to kill one solo unless the pilot just goes AFK and you manage to stick a gank dread on it. Twenty people aren't that hard to rustle up, and anyone with PVP experience would be able to tackle it and kill it. Its not that hard once you have, you know, experience.
EDIT: Or would you prefer that supercaps be the same HP they were before Dominion, where a mothership had one and a half carrier's worth of hitpoints? Hmmm, 15-50 billion isk asset, I'd rather it has the ability to survive. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.23 03:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 23/12/2010 03:26:16 I don't think you should be able to solo one in a subcap no. I do think requiring 20 players in subcaps to kill one player in a super carrier is a bit much.
Currently the super-carrier is the only ship in game that has a chance of winning against 20 to 1 odds.
I don't believe there is any other ship in game that has a chance of winning 5 to 1 against any combination of other ships (assuming equally skilled pilots), 2 vs 1 is a stretch.
Super-carrier breaks a lot of long established EvE rules (No Solopwnmobiles, larger ships having a tough time killing smaller ships, capitals not being very successful hitting moving smaller targets and a requirement to go into siege and be immobile when bbq'ing things.)
--------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.23 07:37:00 -
[17]
SC's are indeed the freak ships of eve as said. Recently in the amarr militia we've run into a similar problem. I had a bored buddy who has a nyx, we dropped it on a few minmatar triage carriers for ****s and giggles. The minmatar turned around and started stock piling nyx's based off that one incident. My fault in a way I suppose, but now we have the issue of how to kill a nyx with 20-30 guys, half in BS's, other half unable to fly a BS. Assuming the minnie nyx's are t2 fit (lol, right), it would take about 15 minutes to kill each of them if they sit there afk with no support fleet and no ganglinks.
Our cap pilots and FC's spent a bit of time trying to figure out a solution that didn't involve simply dropping more SC's. We didn't find one. We did find ways to withstand it and its realistic support fleet. But we have absolutely no way to actually kill the nyx itself in 15 minutes or less without bringing SC's of our own. Sniper dreads and some HIC's with tons of guardians could certainly pull it off, but the militia's just can't field those kinds of numbers in those types of ships. It's actually far easier to just buy a couple SC's than it is to put together a non-SC gang to counter it. The problem isn't a lack of ships or isk, it's a lack of people to fly them.
And that right there speaks volumes about how overpowered they are. A 300-400 active member alliance can't muster enough to kill 1 at any given time. But we can easily just buy a few of our own and kill it that way. The only reasonable counter to an SC is more SC's. Not even titans are appropriate. And that's a big balancing problem.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Darth Felin
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Posted - 2010.12.23 11:49:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 23/12/2010 02:41:16 Solo supercap is a dead supercap. Literally all you need is three hictors to keep it scrammed in lowsec, or just a couple light dictors in 0.0, a curse and fifteen RRBS. Thats literally all it takes. Of course its like you're shooting a large tower, but if you neut them hard enough, their tank turns off. So you don't even need dreads. Supercaps are a lot easier to kill than most people think, its just you don't find any Grade A morons floating around in them that would be solo.
Are you sure? I don't think that 15 RR Battleships will have enough dps to kill well fitted SC within 15 minutes.
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Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.12.23 15:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: King Rothgar The only reasonable counter to an SC is more SC's. Not even titans are appropriate. And that's a big balancing problem.
Every time the optimal counter to X is 'more of X', yeah, then you got a balancing problem. You will see an ever increasing amount of X until game mechanics are corrected. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.12.23 15:24:00 -
[20]
some numbers on EHP vs DPS vs the clock.
A SC with 30,000,000 EHP (non slaves aeon or average NYX)
against one gank BS doing 1,000 dps = over 8 hours against twenty gank BS doing 1,000 dps each = 25 minutes against 34 gank BS doing 1,000 dps each = 15 minutes
Bear in mind we are talking geddons with one RR gank fit, so realisticly for RR bs averagly more like 800 dps each maximum which would mean 42 for an SC kill in 15 minutes (50 to be sure, always a few lame ducks with bad skills and t1 guns)
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Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente Burnin' Sky
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Posted - 2010.12.23 15:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Thermopylaee So... how does one go about doing it? Or rather, how does a large group of you do it? From what I've seen on killboards, they are one-stop win-machines. Any hope for us non-super pilots?
It's a pretty simple, two-step process:
1) Fit Cyno 2) Charge Bat Phone
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So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.12.23 20:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 23/12/2010 03:51:42 I don't think you should be able to solo one in a subcap no. I do think requiring 20 players in subcaps to kill one player in a super carrier is a bit much.
Currently the super-carrier is the only ship in game that has a chance of winning against 20 to 1 odds.
I don't believe there is any other ship in game that has a chance of winning 5 to 1 against any combination of other ships (assuming equally skilled pilots), 2 vs 1 is a stretch.
Super-carrier breaks a lot of long established EvE rules (No Solopwnmobiles, larger ships having a tough time killing smaller ships
That's just not true. Bring your swarm of rifters against a domi and see how long you last. In terms of cost-to-effectiveness ratio that should be about the same (As 20 BS vs SC) too.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.12.23 21:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 23/12/2010 03:51:42 I don't think you should be able to solo one in a subcap no. I do think requiring 20 players in subcaps to kill one player in a super carrier is a bit much.
Currently the super-carrier is the only ship in game that has a chance of winning against 20 to 1 odds.
I don't believe there is any other ship in game that has a chance of winning 5 to 1 against any combination of other ships (assuming equally skilled pilots), 2 vs 1 is a stretch.
Super-carrier breaks a lot of long established EvE rules (No Solopwnmobiles, larger ships having a tough time killing smaller ships
That's just not true. Bring your swarm of rifters against a domi and see how long you last. In terms of cost-to-effectiveness ratio that should be about the same (As 20 BS vs SC) too.
5 competent rifters would murder a Domi, unless you're talking about some dumb gimmicky smartbomb setup. All they have to do is orbit at 500 and primary the Domi's warriors as soon as they're deployed. Signature removed. |
So Sensational
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.12.23 21:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: So Sensational
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 23/12/2010 03:51:42 I don't think you should be able to solo one in a subcap no. I do think requiring 20 players in subcaps to kill one player in a super carrier is a bit much.
Currently the super-carrier is the only ship in game that has a chance of winning against 20 to 1 odds.
I don't believe there is any other ship in game that has a chance of winning 5 to 1 against any combination of other ships (assuming equally skilled pilots), 2 vs 1 is a stretch.
Super-carrier breaks a lot of long established EvE rules (No Solopwnmobiles, larger ships having a tough time killing smaller ships
That's just not true. Bring your swarm of rifters against a domi and see how long you last. In terms of cost-to-effectiveness ratio that should be about the same (As 20 BS vs SC) too.
5 competent rifters would murder a Domi, unless you're talking about some dumb gimmicky smartbomb setup. All they have to do is orbit at 500 and primary the Domi's warriors as soon as they're deployed.
Naw
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Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2010.12.26 06:30:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 26/12/2010 06:34:43
Originally by: Darth Felin
Originally by: Izuru Hishido Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 23/12/2010 02:41:16 Solo supercap is a dead supercap. Literally all you need is three hictors to keep it scrammed in lowsec, or just a couple light dictors in 0.0, a curse and fifteen RRBS. Thats literally all it takes. Of course its like you're shooting a large tower, but if you neut them hard enough, their tank turns off. So you don't even need dreads. Supercaps are a lot easier to kill than most people think, its just you don't find any Grade A morons floating around in them that would be solo.
Are you sure? I don't think that 15 RR Battleships will have enough dps to kill well fitted SC within 15 minutes.
Maybe not, but there are several factors to consider. First, when he logs, his tank turns off. When he logs, his skills also cease to apply to the ship, so its almost at base resists, so you don't need that many people unless you're shooting an Aeon or something stupid like that.
Note: He never asked if logged, aggroed supers could be killed, just supers in general. I'm just stating the bare minimum of what it takes. With the recent change to fighterbombers, battleships won't be alpha'ed by them anymore unless they're sitting stock still and have eight LSE II's and T2 extender rigs, so you have to worry about fighters. I've been in plenty of engagements with fifteen battleships against 20 fighters or more, fourteen RR's are more than enough to keep you alive. Also, assuming logis...you get the idea.
tl;dr, Well fit? Probably not. Take a look around. Not all supercaps are well fit.
Originally by: So Sensational That's just not true. Bring your swarm of rifters against a domi and see how long you last. In terms of cost-to-effectiveness ratio that should be about the same (As 20 BS vs SC) too.
Twenty well fit rifters easily equal a domi in price. Twenty rifters also can't RR each other, unless they're using some wacky fit I've never encountered before. Twenty battleships can. Fighterbombers won't be able to alpha them anymore, so as long as they stay moving, the supercap pilot will have to use fighters, and twenty RR BS can easily tank the fighters, so your analogy is as flawed as your logic. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.26 12:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido
Stop talking.
Lol. Stop talking? Thats like asking me to stop breathing m8
Originally by: Izuru Hishido You people give motherships way too much credit. If a mothership was 20v1 against other motherships, you'd be singing a different song. Or 20v1 against dreads. Or 20v1 against carriers.
That's a pointless argument when the context of this thread is killing a SC with sub capitals. Also whats to stop the SC just leaving?
Originally by: Izuru Hishido
You've said that you can't win 5v1 in any other ship in game? I've done it. Multiple times.
No I don't believe you can win 5 v 1 vs any (sub-capital) ships in game given equally skilled pilots. That would of course assume a usual combat setup for the ships and that you haven't prepared especially to kill them of course. I did 11 vs 1 got a kill and escaped but I was fitted for the purpose (WCS and SB's), I've done various smaller 3 - 8 and escaped after 1 kill but the majority of the time given ecm, TD's and just the usual too much dps the end result is certain death if you stick around.
Also no offense, perhaps you have an alt, however I went through your kills and the only multi ship combat kills you have was:
1. 2 x T2 frigs vs your Nidhoggur. 2. 1 Reaper + Merlin vs your Tempest.
The only other solo kills you have on this character are frigates, haulers and shuttles and none of those were within any reasonable frame of time to call them multiple ship fights.
Originally by: Izuru Hishido I've solo'ed a Hyp, a Cyclone and a Cane in a damn Devoter before, don't tell me it can't be done.
No one is saying 1 v 1 is not possible. It is. 5 vs 1 with equally skills pilots is not imo feasible. You will be nueted, scrammed, damped, jammed and explode, you will be fighting not only those 5 ships but RR and gang bonuses. Any decent gang will have some or all of those elements vs your single sub capital ship.
Originally by: Izuru Hishido You're just counting on numbers because you've never taken the time to work on your own skills in whatever combat ships you fly. Hell, I've seen a solo drake take out a small recon squad, because, dadada, they were all in curses and pilgrims. Its all situational, and you can never say 'it can't be done' because you've never tried it.
I have tried it, all solo. I have used tripple repper duel booster domi's vs 5+ people. Sniper mega's vs 5+ people. T3 buffered ships vs 5+ people. Duel MWD Ishtars vs 5+ people. Super faction fitted Ravens vs 5+ people and many other combination's that just don't work against that much tank, firepower and utility. In my experience you can get 1 kill maybe, usually its just a jam fest that ends badly.
--------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
raukosen
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Posted - 2010.12.26 12:52:00 -
[27]
Edited by: raukosen on 26/12/2010 12:52:35 A Supercarrier can't 1vs20, that's the most silly thing I've read. First of all it can't tackle anything, secondly if the SC itself gets tackled people are going to be streaming in from everywhere to help kill it. If SCs could solo you'd see them do it. They're meant to kill other capitals / super capitals, not subcaps.
A POS is more dangerous to a small fleet than a SC, and no one thinks POSes are OP.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.26 13:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: raukosen Edited by: raukosen on 26/12/2010 12:52:35 A Supercarrier can't 1vs20, that's the most silly thing I've read. First of all it can't tackle anything, secondly if the SC itself gets tackled people are going to be streaming in from everywhere to help kill it. If SCs could solo you'd see them do it. They're meant to kill other capitals / super capitals, not subcaps.
A POS is more dangerous to a small fleet than a SC, and no one thinks POSes are OP.
Unless you run away or you have a fleet capable of killing it before it logs, jumps or calls its own reinforcements, it will kick your sub-capital ass, no matter how many times you tell it in local its only supposed to kill capitals. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Kastsumi Kobayariel
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Posted - 2010.12.26 16:58:00 -
[29]
1. Assemble a fleet of high damage battleships, a couple logistics, and HICs that know how to cycle their focused points to get repped up so they don't die. 1(a). To speed up the process or raise your chances of success, have ships with neutralizers to cap out the SC and force the hardeners off - this will cut down its EHP by at least 50%. 2. Push button(s). 3. Receive killmail(s). 3(a). Post killmail(s). 3(b). Gloat about how it's terribly fitted 4. ???? 5. Profit
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.26 20:37:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
Bear in mind we are talking geddons with one RR gank fit, so realisticly for RR bs averagly more like 800 dps each maximum which would mean 42 for an SC kill in 15 minutes (50 to be sure, always a few lame ducks with bad skills and t1 guns)
That would also mean no gang bonuses on the supercap, and none of the battleships dying though admittedly thats not that far fetched with enough RR.
Now something that actually is far fetched is keeping the thing tackled in low-sec in the first place. HICs cant receive RR while pointing it, and they get obliterated fairly quick.
So I guess we can increase the requirement to ensure the kill to something along the lines of 40 RR BS, and around 8 HICs.
The problem here certainly is surprise factor, a somewhat sane SC pilot isnt gonna drop on a fleet like the one mentioned above solo, and actually holding it long enough to rally said fleet and deploy it is a huge stretch.
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