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WE ARE FEED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 63 post(s)
Reonetii Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:42:00 - [2221] Originally by: GregorClegane [b]@CCP Sreegs: Just two matters. I know corpmates that use bots and haven't even get the 1st warning yet. This is a problem, players like you I HOPE should, if you are concerned for the direction eve is taking, nominate those said players in your corp in a petition. Otherwise you are in league and approve of such behavior. Greed is the great motivator in eve to bot atm, coupled with laziness. The huge isk/resource requirements to sustain the large fleet actions and deployment/losses of pos/sov infrastructure kind of promote the need to bot to supplement incomes/losses. Because select parts of the community have become greedy in their needs and forgone the work together attitude and mundane activities of eve that used to be the way alliances and such were sustained, through that frustration of making "real" people work together (yes they are more trouble than the drones in RMR) it's easier to leave the income resourcing to bot derived gains, whether or not the leaders of these organizations actually endorse bots in their territories or turn a blind eye to the usage, relishing the afk incomes they provide for their war machines, the end result is hollow victory and unsatisfied players in the long run. If we don't turn it around soon, eve is dead, it becomes so overrun with botting, that real players might as well not bother joining, as they can never match income, or they get so frustrated that there is no social involvement anymore and comradery that once existed. I sort of sense by the generalized opinions I read, that eve is at this crossroad now. I personally don't "play" anymore, the bots are so prolific, why bother? I am merely letting the subs I have prepaid run out at this stage, hoping a long term solution comes to fruitfulness before that day. It's going to take not only the CCP team to police the bots, they need us players to keep our eye on our regular systems and CARFULLY log behavior of suspected bots, be careful, watch, watch some more, keep track of actions of said suspects, write it down, submit a reasonable history/time line of observation eg weeks to months, so CCP have some indication that you have been keeping watch and not just reporting a player because he mined and wouldn't chat or respond on the first pass through a belt. I would go with some flagging system where the player base could enact revenge once a botter was confirmed, rather than a one day ban, give the player a month long red flag, in this time period, also prevent character transfers on said account and characters, giving players a chance to revenge ourselves on the players that ruin the game in the long run, once their month flag is over (by example) then the players are free to rejoin eve socially or dispose of said character if they feel so, if they are caught again, perma ban all linked accounts 2c
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:45:00 - [2222] Maybe the use of sound could be included to hinder botters. Suppose you are required to type in coordinates that are read through the speakers to warp to a belt. In this scenario a pilot would query traffic control and hear something like "coordinates belt one, alpha-romeo-romeo one-two-three" or some sequence like that and this info would need to be typed into the client. Would this not be hard to do for a bot? dj
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:51:00 - [2223] Edited by: Furb Killer on 06/04/2011 13:54:04 Welcome to a world where English is not everyones first language. Eve has sound? Some people are deaf, and a larger group just listens to other stuff while playing eve. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_recognition Quote: The majority of peoples IP's are dynamic so banning the IP would have no effect other than potentially banning a different innocent player. Tbh I doubt it, granted it might be different in other countries, but here everyone got semi-static IP addresses (as in: ISP does not guarantee your IP does not change, but they do hand out the same one everytime to your MAC address if you reboot your modem/router, and that pretty much only happens for most people during either internet or power outages). Now I do not think IP banning has any effect, but I do hope that every account from that IP address, both new ones and old ones, get very high on the list of accounts to keep an eye on, and are permabanned when they look funny.
Aessoroz Nohbdy.	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:56:00 - [2224] Edited by: Aessoroz on 06/04/2011 13:56:11 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 05/04/2011 23:20:22 Originally by: Grey Stormshadow There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder... I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs... So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed. Captcha has been discussed in the past. At this point in time we're not implementing it. That doesn't mean we never would, it just means not at this time. We're going to fight this particular fight using a somewhat standard tried and tested security toolbox in some places and be more creative in others, but at the end of the day we're going to trend the numbers down and the measure of success for ourselves will be a steady downward trend in botting, in botting-related income and in sites offering said bots. Ultimately as an initial salvo we're sending the message that this isn't going to be easy anymore. :edit: Ultimately this increases our focus on RMT as well Main reason why captcha's are dumb and useless these days: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/inside-indias-captcha-solving-economy/1835
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.04.06 14:47:00 - [2225] Originally by: Aessoroz Edited by: Aessoroz on 06/04/2011 13:56:11 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 05/04/2011 23:20:22 Originally by: Grey Stormshadow There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder... I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs... So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed. Captcha has been discussed in the past. At this point in time we're not implementing it. That doesn't mean we never would, it just means not at this time. We're going to fight this particular fight using a somewhat standard tried and tested security toolbox in some places and be more creative in others, but at the end of the day we're going to trend the numbers down and the measure of success for ourselves will be a steady downward trend in botting, in botting-related income and in sites offering said bots. Ultimately as an initial salvo we're sending the message that this isn't going to be easy anymore. :edit: Ultimately this increases our focus on RMT as well Main reason why captcha's are dumb and useless these days: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/inside-indias-captcha-solving-economy/1835 Yea... everything can be passed with one way or another. The main idea of my suggestion was to provide some method to "lock" reported player to station and prevent market modifications untill player performs some kind of action. In my suggestion player would get "harmless" mail which would not actually do anything if player was fighting or doing something else in space. The mail would require attention only after he docks to station. Captcha could as well be replaced with some other thing what requires player attention. It would not be - by any means - a main method to identify or remove botting. Just additional functionality to report bot button which would also halt the bots for a while and give extra data about target behauviour after report has been made. ...but as Sreegs said - it's not on the menu atm so will leave the idea there. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
WarpOutNow	Posted - 2011.04.06 15:09:00 - [2226] Yeah, you people are perfectly right. **** up the game for the legit players, only so botters have it (a little bit) harder. The anti-botting measures you are suggesting sound A BIT more annoying than the botters are... inb4 >get out of here botter I just don't want EVE Online to evolve in CAPTCHA Online or LOLISCANURPC Online
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.06 15:26:00 - [2227] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 06/04/2011 15:27:34 There are already automated tools for correctly determining a captcha. Some have varying levels of success. But I'm sure any captcha challenge would give the challenged the opportunity to get a new captcha until they solve it. Since we're talking about botting I don't guess it would be very hard to implement automated captcha answering considering bots already successfully incorporate things like OCR.
Ludacrys	Posted - 2011.04.06 17:23:00 - [2228] Captchas for updating market orders would get rid of a lot of bots
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 17:26:00 - [2229] Originally by: Ludacrys Captchas for updating market orders would get rid of a lot of bots once the bots have implemented ways of bypassing the captcha, it's just going to annoy normal users.
Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.06 20:40:00 - [2230] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Ludacrys Captchas for updating market orders would get rid of a lot of bots once the bots have implemented ways of bypassing the captcha, it's just going to annoy normal users. Which would probably drive regular players to use a capcha bot, to ease that problem. :-)

Rasz Lin Caldari Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:00:00 - [2231] I ignore sites that use Google captchas because its too difficult for me :( :)
Taavi Suikkanen Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:13:00 - [2232] Since 2005 (First time I played this game) I have admired CCP's programming. Lot's of us don't realize how genius it is. Yes they have issues time to time but show me game who doesn't. If you go to CCP Games Youtube channel you find there panel video about this. Bot's have pattern like behavior and I have no doubt in time CCP refines their scan algorithms to catch bot's. No matter is it an BOT, Synergy or any other aid what interacts with client as an user. IMO best thing what you can do is post a link every new bot created. Don't worry about the rest. Characters don't get banned, account's do.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:48:00 - [2233] Originally by: CCP Sreegs B) If you're going to comment typically you'd provide some input. Why did I "fail"? input: char a gets 2 infractions and is sold off and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues Rules fail at this point. THAT is why and lol at not seeing botters RUINING OUR GAME as as bad as hackers... that is also why you fail Good to know, however, your stance on it out in the open.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:21:00 - [2234] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod char a gets 2 infractions and is sold off and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues Rules fail at this point. And you don't think that is the pattern even if the character can't be sold?, it would be the same even if you would get banned on first offense. "char a gets banned and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues"
mkint	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:28:00 - [2235] Edited by: mkint on 06/04/2011 22:34:40 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 06/04/2011 05:48:58 Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 06/04/2011 05:45:33 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I think the most heinous example off the top of my head would be that when a character DOES legally change hands, forcing some new guy to wear a scarlet letter for someone else's actions is a bit of a bummer. ...legally buying a botting account Why do I have the odd feeling that the botters, the real hard core ones, dont sell off the banned characters as much as keep going till they get permmaed. Originally by: CCP Sreegs We are aware of character transfers being a loophole and will be closing it. How is still a matter of internal discussion. :edit: It's really not much of a loophole but is not where it should be from my perspective this is why you fail. seriously. Originally by: CCP Sreegs I believe the rule may very well turn into two strikes sooner rather than later So youre more lenient on ppl botting and ruining the game than people that hack the client. The second there gets you an immediate permaban more often than not, yet botting is a 2 - 3 strike deal. I'm not going to bother navigating the terrible quote system here so I'll use A, B and C to reply to your comments. A) Accounts cannot change hands only characters can. I'll leave your speculation to yourself. Of course only characters can have character transfers. That's a no-brainer. (edit: an account has no value in itself.) The issue is that a character has a very specific isk value, even with no assets and no isk. That isk value is above the value of the required PLEXes and skillbooks. So even if a botter gets his 2 strikes and even if the 3rd strike would have come 20 minutes of gameplay after his 2nd strike it won't matter because he'd already have sold the character completely legally for more than 2 month's worth of botting income. The issue is the botters are first getting paid to bot. Then they are getting paid again to not bot. Then they will just start up another trial account paid for with PLEX and start botting again and get paid to bot and not bot yet again. The blaise attitude about it makes it sound like you're not caring that the botters are in a win-win situation. edit: ok, let's break the 3 strikes system even more... say I'm a high-income botter and I've got 2 strikes. Time to do a character transfer to a brand spankin' new PLEX'd trial account and completely evade all the strikes that go against the old account. Sure it'll cost me some isk in PLEX, but it'd be cheaper than training a new botting toon. It's not as profitable as selling the character outright, but training up a new character can be a hassle.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:43:00 - [2236] Originally by: mkint edit: ok, let's break the 3 strikes system even more... say I'm a high-income botter and I've got 2 strikes. Time to do a character transfer to a brand spankin' new PLEX'd trial account and completely evade all the strikes that go against the old account. Sure it'll cost me some isk in PLEX, but it'd be cheaper than training a new botting toon. It's not as profitable as selling the character outright, but training up a new character can be a hassle. I think transferring a pilot to a new account takes 2 PLEX? And one PLEX for the new account, so thats 3 PLEX, a little over a billion isk at present prices. So to stop this CCP needs to detect the new account botting before 1 billion isk is made. High sec mining, thats like a week. Running santums, not sure, maybe 12 to 24 hours? CCP Sreegs: Think you can catch them fast enough?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:45:00 - [2237] Originally by: mkint after his 2nd strike it won't matter because he'd already have sold the character completely legally for more than 2 month's worth of botting income. Your assume a value of the bot character that probably is much higher then, what it really is. If CCP catch the botter within the first month or two the character is not going to be worth anything close to 1-2 months of botting.
mkint	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:53:00 - [2238] Originally by: dexington Originally by: mkint after his 2nd strike it won't matter because he'd already have sold the character completely legally for more than 2 month's worth of botting income. Your assume a value of the bot character that probably is much higher then, what it really is. If CCP catch the botter within the first month or two the character is not going to be worth anything close to 1-2 months of botting. But that's the point. There's this whole legal economy built up around illegal botters liquidating their character assets. And Sreegs is acting like "oh, no big deal, because we can ban the accounts that used to have bots on them." Whether the value is high or low, why does it matter? The botter is still in a win-win situation, and Sreegs seems fine with that, rather than turning it into a lose-lose situation.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 23:05:00 - [2239] Originally by: mkint The botter is still in a win-win situation, and Sreegs seems fine with that, rather than turning it into a lose-lose situation. He already said that they know about it they are going to close that loophole, he probably knows better then you where it's best to focus man power, and if even a lot of bots are being character traded.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.07 04:32:00 - [2240] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod char a gets 2 infractions and is sold off and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues Rules fail at this point. And you don't think that is the pattern even if the character can't be sold?, it would be the same even if you would get banned on first offense. "char a gets banned and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues" They DONT ban the account?? Wow they really dont care about botting lol

Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.07 04:35:00 - [2241] Originally by: mkint And Sreegs is acting like "oh, no big deal, because we can ban the accounts that used to have bots on them." Seems more to be "Its not that big an issue" attitude to me
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.04.07 11:16:00 - [2242] Just to post here link to related thread so that we have all on one place: Reporting from the front line of the Bot-War In this tread are reactions on, and results of, anti bot war... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.07 12:29:00 - [2243] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 07/04/2011 12:35:30 We DO have one place... here... If the trend continues, your thread will get locked, pointing to this thread to talk about it. like theyve done with every other thread talking about botting since about halfway through this thread's life. Theres a reason this thread has 130,000 replies
Shandir Minmatar Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.07 13:06:00 - [2244] CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. -
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.04.07 13:40:00 - [2245] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 07/04/2011 13:41:07 Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 07/04/2011 12:35:30 We DO have one place... here... If the trend continues, your thread will get locked, pointing to this thread to talk about it. like theyve done with every other thread talking about botting since about halfway through this thread's life. Theres a reason this thread has 130,000 replies First: I think you miss-understood me... so ill fix my post to "Just to post here link to related thread so that we have all important data here, on one place:" i linked all kind of pages and links here in the past... all talking about botting... and Second: Thats not my thread... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.07 14:35:00 - [2246] @ CCP Sreegs: Can you tell us when we can expect Devblog on this subject?
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.09 23:31:00 - [2247] cant let this thread die even with the loltastic demise of the new forums ---------------------------- fail leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to the dark side of MMOs
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.10 01:04:00 - [2248] screw the forum debate... fix the botting issue >.<
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.04.10 10:03:00 - [2249] Originally by: Sullen Skoung screw the forum debate... fix the botting issue >.< +1
Valator Uel Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.04.10 10:41:00 - [2250] Originally by: Sullen Skoung screw the forum debate... fix the botting issue >.< Sreegs is doing both ------------------ empty sig



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