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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
De Su
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Posted - 2010.12.27 03:07:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: Dienowthxbay Playing since 2004, i saw a lot, this will probably kill not eve but playerbase :( Take a look and u will feel being idiots playing RMT + CCP both making money... Eve-news info 1 info 2
If people are making 400bil a month like the guy claims in the first link then any sort of economic warfare becomes redundant and the game is simply broken for anyone playing alliances the way it was intended.
Certainly hope that's not true.
Warfare, especially 0.0 warfare involving anyone competent, has always been more about morale than finances anyways. One guy who can afford to lose expensive ship after expensive ship makes less impact than 100 who can fly whatever the standard fleet ship is on a regular basis in any case.
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Meridian Siri
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Posted - 2010.12.27 06:22:00 -
[512]
Originally by: De Su
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: Dienowthxbay Playing since 2004, i saw a lot, this will probably kill not eve but playerbase :( Take a look and u will feel being idiots playing RMT + CCP both making money... Eve-news info 1 info 2
If people are making 400bil a month like the guy claims in the first link then any sort of economic warfare becomes redundant and the game is simply broken for anyone playing alliances the way it was intended.
Certainly hope that's not true.
Warfare, especially 0.0 warfare involving anyone competent, has always been more about morale than finances anyways. One guy who can afford to lose expensive ship after expensive ship makes less impact than 100 who can fly whatever the standard fleet ship is on a regular basis in any case.
Not strictly a credible argument. Although, I will conceed that good pilots in basic fleet fits are a cornerstone of a quality organization....warfare eventually comes down to economics, logistics, etc. If your 100 guys in regular fleet fits can loose with impunity (ie. ready and unlimited replacements) this is a severe obstacle for an alliance/corp that is not in the "bot-game". It is hard to argue that the ability to replace losses (extending to capitols and supercaps) at will does not represent a dramatic advantage to an alliance or corp.
Basically, the cheater will nearly always win because of pure economic might. RL military history bears this out well. Wars are won by crippling an opponents economic base; it's why factories get bombed....just saying.
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Dienowthxbay
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Posted - 2010.12.27 07:51:00 -
[513]
Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10***+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.27 08:25:00 -
[514]
Originally by: Meridian Siri If your 100 guys in regular fleet fits can loose with impunity (ie. ready and unlimited replacements) this is a severe obstacle for an alliance/corp that is not in the "bot-game". It is hard to argue that the ability to replace losses (extending to capitols and supercaps) at will does not represent a dramatic advantage to an alliance or corp.
subcap ship replacement shouldn't be a problem as long as you consider insurance payouts and have minimal access to decent moon minerals (and if it is a problem, you might want to contact the UN for help^^).
I guess botting really starts to shine when you start playing the supercap game...
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.27 08:33:00 -
[515]
Originally by: Dienowthxbay Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10***+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame.
I have a hard time believing this inflation talk.
If I buy a supercap for ISK I did gain from botting, then the most direct impact on the price level would be rising mineral prices (extra demand for minerals financed with freshly printed money).
But by the looks of it the mining bots are very well able to counteract the extra supply of ISK with an additional inflow of minerals.
Ratting bots -> tendency towards inflation (note that I say "tendency") Mining/PI bots -> tendency towards deflation/disinflation
end result - fairly stable prices & happiness
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Zangorus
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Posted - 2010.12.27 11:31:00 -
[516]
botting is bad mkay?
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Superpossee
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Posted - 2010.12.27 11:33:00 -
[517]
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Originally by: Dienowthxbay Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10***+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame.
I have a hard time believing this inflation talk.
If I buy a supercap for ISK I did gain from botting, then the most direct impact on the price level would be rising mineral prices (extra demand for minerals financed with freshly printed money).
But by the looks of it the mining bots are very well able to counteract the extra supply of ISK with an additional inflow of minerals.
Ratting bots -> tendency towards inflation (note that I say "tendency") Mining/PI bots -> tendency towards deflation/disinflation
end result - fairly stable prices & happiness
I agree with the ratting-bots vs. mining-bots stuff, but the rest is bull****. It starts with you buying a supercap with cheater-isk in the first place, isk you should not have, isk you dont care about losing while your opponent who grinded months for his SC really puts something at risk if he uses it. So the onle possible winner here is the cheating bastard, even if he has to lose 10 SCs before killing one.
You simply dont care for isk if it is generated constantly without putting efforts in it.
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Pesadel0
the muppets Blade.
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Posted - 2010.12.27 20:01:00 -
[518]
Originally by: Superpossee
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Originally by: Dienowthxbay Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10***+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame.
I have a hard time believing this inflation talk.
If I buy a supercap for ISK I did gain from botting, then the most direct impact on the price level would be rising mineral prices (extra demand for minerals financed with freshly printed money).
But by the looks of it the mining bots are very well able to counteract the extra supply of ISK with an additional inflow of minerals.
Ratting bots -> tendency towards inflation (note that I say "tendency") Mining/PI bots -> tendency towards deflation/disinflation
end result - fairly stable prices & happiness
I agree with the ratting-bots vs. mining-bots stuff, but the rest is bull****. It starts with you buying a supercap with cheater-isk in the first place, isk you should not have, isk you dont care about losing while your opponent who grinded months for his SC really puts something at risk if he uses it. So the onle possible winner here is the cheating bastard, even if he has to lose 10 SCs before killing one.
You simply dont care for isk if it is generated constantly without putting efforts in it.
This , and did we get a devblog about this stuff?
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Sraik Doubter
PWNED THEORY
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Posted - 2010.12.28 00:04:00 -
[519]
Yes, we got a lame, corporate yes-man style dev blog. Problem solved apparently.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.29 00:11:00 -
[520]
time to bring back some noise, great threads live!
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.29 00:41:00 -
[521]
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Originally by: Dienowthxbay Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10***+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame.
I have a hard time believing this inflation talk.
If I buy a supercap for ISK I did gain from botting, then the most direct impact on the price level would be rising mineral prices (extra demand for minerals financed with freshly printed money).
But by the looks of it the mining bots are very well able to counteract the extra supply of ISK with an additional inflow of minerals.
Ratting bots -> tendency towards inflation (note that I say "tendency") Mining/PI bots -> tendency towards deflation/disinflation
end result - fairly stable prices & happiness
no, not at all... 1st Money that botters make is not injected into the economy. Nobody ever buys 3 bill isk in order to buy 150 Drakes! So the demand does not change much. This way general markets and minerals prices aren't affected, since the player base still has finite and stable money source. People who buy isk prefer to spend it on top-end gear, like tech 3 cruisers, rare faction mods and HG implants. Thus, the very limited supply of 'rare' named stuff is unable to meet the demand and prices tend to grow (Sellers are not numerous and adjust pricing fast).
2nd Mining bots only eliminate the competitive advantage of miners and mining alliances on the markets, so bulk sales of minerals become less and less attractive. The 'reasonable price' of minerals can only be related to the ability of an individual to 'produce' isk in order to consume 'finished products and materials'. Because pricing is directly related to purchasing power of the general population. And general population doesn't rely on bots and doesn't buy isk.
Nobody becomes happy when the value of spaceships and equipment goes down. Frankly speaking massively available items are compared to crap, because they give neither advantage, nor satisfaction.
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yieasase
susivirate
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Posted - 2010.12.29 10:53:00 -
[522]
cash cash payback
presents
environment versus environment
create ur own tax free company, with a daily incom up to xxxxx
blend idots or selfdestruct, right originalities organize the known intelligence term
i miss a substantive sure
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Doug Garvin
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Posted - 2010.12.29 13:01:00 -
[523]
Do you think CCP wants to offend its macro mining paying customers?
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Rat Mcgee
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Posted - 2010.12.29 18:48:00 -
[524]
CCP we need to get rid of macro users!
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Ephemeron
The Dirty Dozen
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Posted - 2010.12.29 19:03:00 -
[525]
If CCP were hardcore enough they could organize and secretly fund Anonymous type group and use it to attack the known RMT IPs, for both clients and websites.
CCP got all the right things to make it happen - inside information, money, and 300,000 people who may be interested in participating.
Of course none of it could be official and everything would have to be done thru 3rd parties. But in this world we KNOW it can be done, safely and successfully.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.29 19:03:00 -
[526]
what did we whine about again?
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Airatt
DeathRattlers
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Posted - 2010.12.29 20:15:00 -
[527]
Why has CCP not responded to this forum post?
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riverini
Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.29 21:54:00 -
[528]
Edited by: riverini on 29/12/2010 21:56:40
Originally by: Airatt Why has CCP not responded to this forum post?
They will... in 18 months...
Originally by: Meridian Siri
Originally by: De Su
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: Dienowthxbay Playing since 2004, i saw a lot, this will probably kill not eve but playerbase :( Take a look and u will feel being idiots playing RMT + CCP both making money... Eve-news info 1 info 2
If people are making 400bil a month like the guy claims in the first link then any sort of economic warfare becomes redundant and the game is simply broken for anyone playing alliances the way it was intended.
Certainly hope that's not true.
Warfare, especially 0.0 warfare involving anyone competent, has always been more about morale than finances anyways. One guy who can afford to lose expensive ship after expensive ship makes less impact than 100 who can fly whatever the standard fleet ship is on a regular basis in any case.
Not strictly a credible argument. Although, I will conceed that good pilots in basic fleet fits are a cornerstone of a quality organization....warfare eventually comes down to economics, logistics, etc. If your 100 guys in regular fleet fits can loose with impunity (ie. ready and unlimited replacements) this is a severe obstacle for an alliance/corp that is not in the "bot-game". It is hard to argue that the ability to replace losses (extending to capitols and supercaps) at will does not represent a dramatic advantage to an alliance or corp.
Basically, the cheater will nearly always win because of pure economic might. RL military history bears this out well. Wars are won by crippling an opponents economic base; it's why factories get bombed....just saying.
You obviously haven't been never in 0.0 or just not long enough, Morale and decent FC's are the oxygen of any respectable 0.0 entity, just take a look at the mid year KSC invasion, H-W changed everything, not because of the ship lost there, but because of the morale blow it dealt to all it's pilots
German Giggles riverini
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.29 22:00:00 -
[529]
Yeah it is getting really bad. Support
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Dante Marcellus
Minmatar Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
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Posted - 2010.12.29 23:08:00 -
[530]
I usually feed down.
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McTard
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Posted - 2010.12.29 23:23:00 -
[531]
Only way anything would ever change about this is if almost EVERYONE had acces to free, safe macros. Then of course the anti-macro/botting measures would fall like rain.
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Lord Dragonmede
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Posted - 2010.12.30 00:21:00 -
[532]
Edited by: Lord Dragonmede on 30/12/2010 00:22:25 CCP has responded to this thread, they keep locking similar threads and burying the conversation into this one.
Contain the situation, contain the topic, and pretend it doesn't exist...
Eventually, the solution is for everyone to EMORAGEQUIT over botting. When that does happen, can I have your stuff?
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.30 04:21:00 -
[533]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 30/12/2010 04:21:43
Originally by: riverini
You obviously haven't been never in 0.0 or just not long enough, Morale and decent FC's are the oxygen of any respectable 0.0 entity, just take a look at the mid year KSC invasion, H-W changed everything, not because of the ship lost there, but because of the morale blow it dealt to all it's pilots
German Giggles riverini
Doesn't matter if you have the best FC's and the greatest pvp'rs in the world. When a single guy can farm 400 billion isk per month, enough to fund 20 super-carriers, you cannot win.
By the time you manage to blow up all his 20 super carriers, lets say that takes 3 months he now has 60 more. Meanwhile his super carriers have managed to kill half of your total assets. How are you going to continue without botting yourself?
Morale wise who is winning? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.12.30 05:18:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona By the time you manage to blow up all his 20 super carriers, lets say that takes 3 months he now has 60 more. Meanwhile his super carriers have managed to kill half of your total assets. How are you going to continue without botting yourself?
One option is to stake out the systems suspected of harbouring botters. Do so in cloaky ships equipped with cynos. The bots will warp to a safespot and cloak.
The catch is that this does require dedicating one account to being unproductive 24x7.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.30 05:37:00 -
[535]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 30/12/2010 05:38:04
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Infinity Ziona By the time you manage to blow up all his 20 super carriers, lets say that takes 3 months he now has 60 more. Meanwhile his super carriers have managed to kill half of your total assets. How are you going to continue without botting yourself?
One option is to stake out the systems suspected of harbouring botters. Do so in cloaky ships equipped with cynos. The bots will warp to a safespot and cloak.
The catch is that this does require dedicating one account to being unproductive 24x7.
Ironically that was the goal of my current corporation. To recruit alts who would log on a covert ops character in a bot ratting system when they logged off to go work, sleep, rl stuff.
Unfortunately it was torpedoed by CCP's new netcode that no longer allows me to play without constantly disconnecting. Hopefully someone will pick up this idea and run with it till CCP fixes their netcode. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Meridian Siri
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Posted - 2011.01.01 03:59:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Lord Dragonmede Edited by: Lord Dragonmede on 30/12/2010 00:22:25 CCP has responded to this thread, they keep locking similar threads and burying the conversation into this one.
Contain the situation, contain the topic, and pretend it doesn't exist...
This. Seems like this issue is destined to be swept under the rug through neglect.
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Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
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Posted - 2011.01.01 05:38:00 -
[537]
This thread has gone on for 18 pages now. Will the OP PLEASE ****ing change the subject to "We are FED up" and not "FEED". It's been bugging me. Just sayin'.
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Peaceouthomies
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Posted - 2011.01.01 08:05:00 -
[538]
Yeah, what she said M'Fer!
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Musashi IV
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Posted - 2011.01.01 13:20:00 -
[539]
CCP its time to get rid of macro users!
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Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
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Posted - 2011.01.01 13:40:00 -
[540]
Originally by: Musashi IV CCP its time to get rid of macro users!
Your useless posting on this subject continually serves as an advertisement to new players on the forum.
nothing will come of further discussion on the matter. If you really wanted to make a difference you would petition about suspected macro users. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated. |
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