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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:43:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm So you are aurguing that a skill that has no practical purpose but to slow down training for a few weeks
Protip: The learning skills speed up training.
Originally by: Alara IonStorm grind
Skilling in EVE involves no grinding.
Originally by: Alara IonStorm doesn't let you do much in the first weeks if you want to develope a long term character
Yeah, no. Say it over and over, still won't be true. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:43:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Tippia Your character does not change in the slightest.
They learn faster. And, the character also gets access to new stuff faster.
Again: nothing about that changes your character. You the player get stuff faster. That is all. Your character is just as capable or incapable with or without the learning skills. They have no effect in-game, only out-of-game: you don't have to pay CCP as much money to get to use toy X.
Quote: I don't know if you're trolling or just ******ed, but introducing an imaginary difference between your learning attributes and all your other attributes won't achieve anything.
All attributes are like this. I'm not introducing any differences between them. They only affect out-of-game considerations (how long the player has to wait). That's why learning skills are distinctly different from other skills: no other skills affect attributes, and no other skills make zero difference on what you can or cannot do (or how effectively you do it) in-game.
You do not lock ships faster because you have higher perception ù your Signature Analysis skill does that, and it does it equally well regardless of your perception attribute. You do not bully more favours out of your agents with higher willpower and/or charisma ù your Negotiation and Connection skills do that, and your attribute values are not a factor in how well they do it.
Attributes have no in-game function. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:48:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 25/11/2010 19:52:31
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2 to me there is no downside to it. its just not logical. in eve every skill just changes some stats around. and if its really about "items", there are still more skills that dont let you use an actual item. like market skills and reputation skills.
Yes but those skills effect you in game and help you in your career path that you choose. Learning skills are grind for the sake of grind. No one wants to train them but they give you an advantage players need. It is a good thing they are going, means more players will be able to fight effectively right out of the stables. More fun early and more that feeling of acheiving something for your time.
I for one hated training the skills when I wanted my ships to be better and to do more in the universe. Finally people will be able to get there feet wet and try EVE instead of there Trial being Learning skills. It can literally only help.
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Alara IonStorm So you are aurguing that a skill that has no practical purpose but to slow down training for a few weeks
Protip: The learning skills speed up training.
And soon they won't, people will be able to train in game skills earlier.
Originally by: Alara IonStorm doesn't let you do much in the first weeks if you want to develope a long term character
Yeah, no. Say it over and over, still won't be true.
And yet it is, you can train other stuff but you loose time. Train the skills and you don't get to improve for a week. Etheir way there is no downside to more improvement earlier.
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:50:00 -
[64]
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Edited by: Zhim''Fufu on 25/11/2010 19:28:26
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu And what orafice did you pull that info from?
as i said from my personal observations. off couse i bet you have detailed emperial statistics ?
I made no claim of actual numbers of people who may or may not have trained the learning skills. I simply stated that its mandatory to train them and your an idiot if you don't so that means that having the choice to not train them is meaningless.
i also made no claim of -actual- numbers. i made a rough estimated guess. and i added to that that i based this on my personal experience. i made the points earlier in the post as to why people do take the choice not to train them and that to them they are not mandatory as you believe. formally i would also like to invite you to a more constructive language. i am not your enemy. and i am also not against the change- i do actually profit from it-.
Learning skills are mandatory unless its some simple alt that has pretty much the skills you need after rolling it. For everything else if you make the choice to not train them then you will suffer a huge penalty with no reasonable gain. There is no way around that point.
Also my language is perfectly constructive. Plus I didn't call you personally an idiot. Unless you are a long term player who never trained his learnings.
Then its a double whammy. Years of terrible sp rates and not a drop of sp to redistribute when the change hits.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:53:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/11/2010 19:55:48
Originally by: Alara IonStorm you can train other stuff but you loose time
You can loose anything you want and it won't prevent you from having a long term character.
Originally by: Tippia Again: nothing about that changes your character. You the player get stuff faster.
Your character also gets the stuff faster. You don't think that you, as in the real person you, is flying the ship, right? Because that would be crazy.
Quote: Attributes have no in-game function.
You don't think that skill training happens outside the game do you? Because that would be crazy.
You so crazy. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:55:00 -
[66]
10/10
Good trolling, surprised how many people fell for it considering the cruiser remark
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:55:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: Brakur Ualkin Back in the old days the character creator was sophisticated and gave you real control over your character attributes and starting skills.
The second time I rolled a character I flew (and lost) a cruiser on my first day!
Taking away these options was a bad change, and so is the removal of the 2x bonus and learning skills.
I only train learning skills on about half my characters (I use many unconventionally) but they represented a genuine choice and trade-off in a game that is rapidly being reduced to "point your ship at something and watch it blow up".
Introducing shinier graphics doesn't make up for removing genuine complexity.
What's next putting an end to all the nerf/buff threads by giving all four races identical ship stats?
the old character creator was as sophisticated as picking caldari achura.
I wish I knew what I was doing then... I'm still angry that my 512k sp in level 5 skill(s) was missile bombardment 5
the other people I started with at least got t2 guns (just about) or drones 5..... and I got missile bombardment 5.... that has been over 1/2 my sp in missiles for like 3 years, then I decided I have every cruiser/bs 5, and can use all t2 guns I guess I should learn how to use missiles now.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.11.25 19:57:00 -
[68]
Everyone just asks other people what to do or Googles it, anyway.
The few people who actually do try new things and figure stuff out for themselves get mocked for not knowing the "right" way to do things.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
RensPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:01:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Learning skills are mandatory unless its some simple alt that has pretty much the skills you need after rolling it. For everything else if you make the choice to not train them then you will suffer a huge penalty with no reasonable gain. There is no way around that point.
Also my language is perfectly constructive. Plus I didn't call you personally an idiot. Unless you are a long term player who never trained his learnings.
Then its a double whammy. Years of terrible sp rates and not a drop of sp to redistribute when the change hits.
Well, here are the reasons again as to why learning skills may not be mandatory for you:
- You don't plan on playing Eve for a long time.
- You might want to play Eve for a long time but you do not want to commit to this 'strategic decision' yet.
- You value the imidiate effect of other skills (like combat skills) over the long term effect of a slightly increased sp generation rate.
as to the language remark: yes you did not personally call me that, but you suggested that if i have a different oppinion from yours, that would qualify me as an idiot. aswell as pulling numbers out of an orifice.. i just belive the discussion doesnt necessarily profit from such side blows. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:01:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Your character also gets the stuff faster.
Your character doesn't care, though. You do.
Quote: You don't think that skill training happens outside the game do you?
It doesn't happen in-game either. It's a meta-game event. That's the whole point: your learning skills does not affect how effective your character is, it only affects this meta-game mechanic. As such it has no place being part of the in-game mechanics. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:12:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Tippia Your character doesn't care, though. You do.
Your character also doesn't care if they can shoot with 2% more damage. I guess that skill also has no effect then?
Originally by: Tippia It doesn't happen in-game either.
No, really, it does. Keep taking the medication. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Kontesa
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:14:00 -
[72]
In chess, all pieces have set attributes, and both players start with same formations. The rules are simple enough; most 6-year olds can learn them in an afternoon. You have no control over what is given you (sans the advantage gained from being moving first). And yet, the game is anything but simple.
If, say, Bobby Fisher were alive, and played against this entire board, and even gave us a rook advantage, it is not unlikely he would smoke our collective asses 99 out of 100 times.
If you were complaining about the lack of line of sight, no drawbacks to huge fleets, even targeting times or some such, I'd agree. But if years of experience, countless hours setting and flying different ships, all the connections you made and a hefty bank account are not an advantage enough, a reasonable advantage, that is, then...
If anything, the skills --all of them-- that are simply acquired by the passage of time (and easily obtainable isk) and other such arbitrary game mechanics (even if necessary from the developer's point of view) is what takes the complexity away and dumbs the game down.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:17:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Tippia on 25/11/2010 20:19:48
Originally by: Crumplecorn Your character also doesn't care if they can shoot with 2% more damage.
àbut your opponent does, because it's something that actually has an effect in-game. Unlike training speed. Whether or not I have Cha 5 or Cha 33 doesn't make any difference in what I can do in the game ù it only changes how long I have to wait before the game lets me do X.
Quote: No, really, it does.
Meta-game is not in-game, so no. You need to look that term up, because it seems to be confusing you. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:19:00 -
[74]
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Learning skills are mandatory unless its some simple alt that has pretty much the skills you need after rolling it. For everything else if you make the choice to not train them then you will suffer a huge penalty with no reasonable gain. There is no way around that point.
Also my language is perfectly constructive. Plus I didn't call you personally an idiot. Unless you are a long term player who never trained his learnings.
Then its a double whammy. Years of terrible sp rates and not a drop of sp to redistribute when the change hits.
Well, here are the reasons again as to why learning skills may not be mandatory for you:
- You don't plan on playing Eve for a long time.
- You might want to play Eve for a long time but you do not want to commit to this 'strategic decision' yet.
- You value the imidiate effect of other skills (like combat skills) over the long term effect of a slightly increased sp generation rate.
1) Then why start the game to begin with. Eve is a game you play for years and not even remotely setup for a quick jump in and max level up like the majority of other mmo's out there. So in this case that specific player doesn't count in the greater sense of how ccp sets up the game mechanics.
2) Hmmm, now thats one hum dinger of a 'strategic decision' we have here: "To train skills faster or not?" Golly I'm going to have to dwell on this for a while.. Ok I choose train skills faster.
3) There is this thing ccp put into the game called a skill queue that lets you mix and match learning and other skills to your hearts content.
Summary: There is no choice. It's mandatory.
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2 as to the language remark: yes you did not personally call me that, but you suggested that if i have a different oppinion from yours, that would qualify me as an idiot. aswell as pulling numbers out of an orifice.. i just belive the discussion doesnt necessarily profit from such side blows.
Well you know what they say about opinions...
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:20:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Tippia àbut your opponent does, because it's something that actually has an effect in-game. Unlike training speed.
I'm sure you're opponent will care if you can fly a battleship and he can't all because you trained the learning skills and he didn't.
Originally by: Tippia Meta-game is not in-game.
Learning skills and attributes, however, are. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Ash Donai
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:32:00 -
[76]
Dumber game = more subscribers! That's all that really matters whether you emo rage about it or not is irrelevant. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:36:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm sure you're opponent will care if you can fly a battleship and he can't all because you trained the learning skills and he didn't.
And your learning skills don't make a difference ù you acquiring the Battleship skill does.
Since you haven't looked the term up, I'll explain it to you.
Learning skills are meta-game skills: they don't change the game, but rather change how changes to the game happen. They change how you play the game, they don't change the game itself. They are one step removed from the game.
Originally by: Tippia Learning skills and attributes, however, are.
And that's why they need to be removed: because they are in the game, but only affect meta-game mechanics (viz. the acquisition of skills ù the speed of the grind, if you like). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
RensPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:37:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Learning skills are mandatory unless its some simple alt that has pretty much the skills you need after rolling it. For everything else if you make the choice to not train them then you will suffer a huge penalty with no reasonable gain. There is no way around that point.
Also my language is perfectly constructive. Plus I didn't call you personally an idiot. Unless you are a long term player who never trained his learnings.
Then its a double whammy. Years of terrible sp rates and not a drop of sp to redistribute when the change hits.
Well, here are the reasons again as to why learning skills may not be mandatory for you:
- You don't plan on playing Eve for a long time.
- You might want to play Eve for a long time but you do not want to commit to this 'strategic decision' yet.
- You value the imidiate effect of other skills (like combat skills) over the long term effect of a slightly increased sp generation rate.
1) Then why start the game to begin with. Eve is a game you play for years and not even remotely setup for a quick jump in and max level up like the majority of other mmo's out there. So in this case that specific player doesn't count in the greater sense of how ccp sets up the game mechanics.
2) Hmmm, now thats one hum dinger of a 'strategic decision' we have here: "To train skills faster or not?" Golly I'm going to have to dwell on this for a while.. Ok I choose train skills faster.
3) There is this thing ccp put into the game called a skill queue that lets you mix and match learning and other skills to your hearts content.
Summary: There is no choice. It's mandatory.
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2 as to the language remark: yes you did not personally call me that, but you suggested that if i have a different oppinion from yours, that would qualify me as an idiot. aswell as pulling numbers out of an orifice.. i just belive the discussion doesnt necessarily profit from such side blows.
Well you know what they say about opinions...
1.) I oppose to the idea that eve is only a game for people that want to play it for serveral years. You can be set up and shooting stuff within the first days if you dont decide to train the learning skills - which in turn makes sense in that situation -. and that is not restricted to pve. Quite a few of my friends actually just played eve for around a year or a bit longer.
2.) Well, the decision is: to train skills faster -later- in return to -slower- now.
3.) Yes. And it is a decision you take wether you want to maximum bonus effect from the learning skills (by learning them all to level 5 from day 1), or by mixing them with other skills. resulting in a slightly decreased bonus effect but with the ability to train other stuff first. its a decision based on personal preference and patience. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:38:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tippia And your learning skills don't make a difference ù you acquiring the Battleship skill does.
You couldn't have acquired it in that time without the learning skills.
Originally by: Tippia And that's why they need to be removed: because they are in the game, but only affect meta-game mechanics (viz. the acquisition of skills ù the speed of the grind, if you like).
Acquisition of skills happens in game too.
And, uh, you would have CCP remove attributes? Hmm. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:51:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Crumplecorn You couldn't have acquired it in that time without the learning skills.
And the acquisition is a meta-game event, which is all that attributes affect.
Quote: Acquisition of skills happens in game too.
In most games, yesà kindaà with the grind for XP and all that (but even that is meta to an extent). In EVE, no. Being in-game is not a factor.
Quote: And, uh, you would have CCP remove attributes? Hmm.
Not necessarily, no. If I were to push the "no meta in my in-game" line of reasoning, implants would have to go, but the attributes themselves can stay. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:56:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tippia In EVE, no. Being in-game is not a factor.
The fact that you don't have to be in game does not make something meta. That's where the 'persistant world' comes in. The game is still there whether you are or not. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Kaahles
Fulcrum Weapon Systems Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.25 20:57:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Brakur Ualkin [complaining about stuff like a little crybaby whose lolli was stolen by a mean angry man]
There's been a song made for people like you. It's really good actually. There You Go ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:01:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Crumplecorn The fact that you don't have to be in game does not make something meta. That's where the 'persistant world' comes in. The game is still there whether you are or not.
Yes, but what I'm saying is rather the opposite: the only thing that might possible make XP-grinding in other games non-meta is that you have to actually go gallivanting around the game world and killing stuff to get that XP ù in EVE, not even that excuse for calling the progression non-meta exists (and as you point out, it's not really an argument for or against being meta to begin with). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:05:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tippia the only thing that might possible make XP-grinding in other games non-meta
Nothing needs to make it non-meta. The skills are in the game. The attributes are in the game. The timer for skill learning is in the game. The skill queue is in the game. Anything meta is by definition not in the game. Therefore... -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:08:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Tippia on 25/11/2010 21:07:58
Originally by: Crumplecorn Nothing needs to make it non-meta. The skills are in the game. The attributes are in the game. The timer for skill learning is in the game. The skill queue is in the game. Anything meta is by definition not in the game. Therefore...
And by definition, progression is meta. Learning skills affect progression, so they affect that meta-mechanic, and since (as you are so adamant to point out) they exist in-game, that connection is a bad one and should be broken. Removing them fixes that problem quite nicely. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Tyber Zaan
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:26:00 -
[86]
This is not dumbing down.
The learning skills were pointless, basically, its train them or loose out on skill training time.
They were a time sink with no alternative to obtain the reward offered.
Also, ITT: unfounded rumors. slippery slope fallacies, and general tears.
Please keep crying. tears fuel my warp core.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:27:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Tippia And by definition, progression is meta.
Not if progression involves changing your characters in-game properties (i.e. skills and attributes). -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:42:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Tippia And by definition, progression is meta.
Not if progression involves changing your characters in-game properties (i.e. skills and attributes).
No, progression is still meta. It still doesn't change the gameplay. What you're talking about is just a rather horrid kind of round-tripping.
In-game → changes meta → changes in-game.
That last step isn't problematic ù it's what meta-gaming is for, after all. The first step, however, is. Fiddling with stuff in-game for sole purpose affecting the meta-game is bad design. Had the learning skills had in-game effects (i.e. if the above chain had simply been in-game → ingame), it wouldn't have mattered as much ù they would have functioned like all other skills.
However, the implementation was such that they affected the meta-game instead at the cost of making useful in-game changes (usually at a point where such changes would have been far more beneficial) made the learning skills themselves a completely pointless and self-serving meta-mechanic for no good reason. I can't speculate how such a short-circuit could have worked, but simply nuking the in-game-to-meta connection fixes that problem anyway. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.11.25 21:45:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Tippia No, progression is still meta.
No, it's not. Oh, that's that entire post sunk. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
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