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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.11.01 18:23:00 -
[1]
Hello All,
I was away for awhile, and after returning, I didn't spend much time looking into T3, and now as I do, I am not sure I understand their role, specifically,
The Tengu with HML appears to have only slightly more dps than the Drake, but its tanking abilities are much greater, as well as its ability to stay OL, which kicks the dps up a bit.
When I look at the Legion vs say the Prophecy, it is clear the legion is a much greater improvement, in dps and tank.
Are T3 cruisers supposed to be near BC damage? with tanks like BS?
Thank you for your help,
Apollo =============================== || Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. || =============================== |
Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2010.11.01 18:30:00 -
[2]
My impression is that the primary advantage of the T3 hulls in numerical terms is versatility both in terms of the various ways you can build them and the ability for a given build to fill several roles at once.
What modules you put on there are going to make your t3 a very different ship, though, so it's hard to make a blanket statement about their role or capabilities. Assembled certain ways they make great PvE soloing ships, assembled other ways they make idea PvP solo ships, and assembled other ways they're fleet boosters that can rival command ships in utility.
(I don't know numbers, but since they solo L4s quite quickly, being on par with BC/BS in terms of dps and tank for PvE builds seems reasonable.) ---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.01 18:32:00 -
[3]
role of T3 is versatility.
it's pretty much like this:
T1 = workhorse T2 = speciality roles T3 = versatility ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.01 18:43:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Grimpak role of T3 is versatility.
/thread
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:14:00 -
[5]
To make sure I get what you are saying, with T3, you just swap out subsystems as needed, as opposed to getting a new ship for a new role?
Where do they sit dps wise, I know people use Tengus for lv 4s, while in a drake that is a long slow affair.
Thanks Apollo =============================== || Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. || =============================== |
Mortuus
Minmatar Waiting for Palli Angry Dogs
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:30:00 -
[6]
Depending on subsystems and fitting, anywhere from Assault Frigate to BS level DPS.
It's all about what role you choose to fill.
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Preestar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.01 20:51:00 -
[7]
Passive tanked armour T3 with slaves and bonuses can have 250k EHP... Solo loki is basically like the sleipner but with a cruiser hull They can also be used for wormholes, plex sites and missions
Compare them like this.
Proteus active = dual rep astarte Tengu active = sleipner tank Loki = sleiper tank Legion = dual rep sac
Proteus with passive = 700dps + Loki nano / passive = 700dps + Tengu passive = 600dps + Legion passive = 550dps +
There are versitile. Thats about all I can say really
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Izuru Hishido
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Preestar Legion = dual rep sac
Legion passive = 550dps +
Sums up about perfectly why the Legion is garbage. Frankly, if someone wanted the tank of a dual rep sacrilege, they could pay 100-ish mil for the hull, about 50m for fittings if they went a little overboard and easily beat the Legion's tank.
Then there's the zealot. Do you really want to pay 450m for a zealot? Legions are garbage.
Tengu is fantastic for what it does. An amazing plex runner, fantastic for ninjaratting, can handle anomalies in 0.0 well and is actually very viable in combat as an alternative to either a drake or a vulture.
Lets see, the Proteus is amazing in ways I shouldn't have to describe for PVP. It can have an ultra-long point, a very sturdy tank, actually is quite maneuverable, and is very successful at being a much better version of a deimos, and it does terrifying DPS with a cruiser size signature.
Then there's the Loki, which is essentially a rapier with double or even triple the EHP of most Rapier fits. Its extremely useful in almost all fast gangs, and even solo.
Tengus, Proteuses, Loki's, all very, very worthwhile to train for and buy.
Legion is useful for only one thing, maybe two: Running through bubbles carrying a tiny amount of cargo or being reprocessed for base minerals. The benefits that it gets do not justify buying one for what they lack at. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
Marko Riva
Adamant Inc. Adamant Inc
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Posted - 2010.11.02 01:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido Legion is useful for only one thing, maybe two: Running through bubbles carrying a tiny amount of cargo or being reprocessed for base minerals.
Armor gang links
------ ADMI is recruiting. My EVE tutorials |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.11.02 02:34:00 -
[10]
the heavy missile tengu should have slightly more than slightly more dps than a drake, should be closer to the raven or even CNR in terms of dps.
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Forge Trader
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Posted - 2010.11.02 03:19:00 -
[11]
For me, the cost of a T3 cruiser is justified for roles that no other ship can handle. Example: Tengu fitted w/ cov ops and interdiction module, makes it virtually invulnerable in Eve, able to move anywhere, and still kill something when it gets there.
Lots of compromises of course: less dps than most other cruisers when so fitted; very expensive.
Not quite able to leap tall buildings with a single bound, but close.
This works for me as a solo player.
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TheKalila
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Posted - 2010.11.02 03:19:00 -
[12]
Edited by: TheKalila on 02/11/2010 03:21:47 Legion is fine with a 100mn AB HAM brick fit. It's not cheap but what do you expect for something that has more damage than a BC with more EHP than most BS and still moves very fast and has cruiser sized sig radius with good resists.
Don't get me wrong, 100mn AB active Tengu is way better but if your in an armor RR gang with Oni/Gurdian and a Slave set, it is very good.
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Logical Chaos
Reverse Psychology. BAT PHONE
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: TheKalila Edited by: TheKalila on 02/11/2010 03:21:47 Legion is fine with a 100mn AB HAM brick fit. It's not cheap but what do you expect for something that has more damage than a BC with more EHP than most BS and still moves very fast and has cruiser sized sig radius with good resists.
Don't get me wrong, 100mn AB active Tengu is way better but if your in an armor RR gang with Oni/Gurdian and a Slave set, it is very good.
Yeah, this is like the one fitting that works.
It of course has the advantage of not requiring Ammo for wormholes (that said, its awesome for C3s)
The main problems I see: -No proper PvP Fitting with Lasers (Basically like the HAM 100mm AB thing) -Covert Ops Sub suck ass. Yes it really does. For ****s sake what did CCP think when doing it.
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Random Alt147782
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:46:00 -
[14]
I lived in lowsec for a month with a Tengu as my only ship and did pretty much everything PvE you can do in lowsec without a single problem. Plexing/Sites/Missions/ratting. Was in Guri space so it was perfect. The trick is just be smart and know how to survive in lowsec and you are fine.
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aldhura
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Posted - 2010.11.02 18:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Hello All,
I was away for awhile, and after returning, I didn't spend much time looking into T3, and now as I do, I am not sure I understand their role, specifically,
The Tengu with HML appears to have only slightly more dps than the Drake, but its tanking abilities are much greater, as well as its ability to stay OL, which kicks the dps up a bit.
When I look at the Legion vs say the Prophecy, it is clear the legion is a much greater improvement, in dps and tank.
Are T3 cruisers supposed to be near BC damage? with tanks like BS?
Thank you for your help,
Apollo
Not sure how you did your fitting, but in my drake with 3 CN BCS's I get 411 dps damage from 7 x HML T2's( would never really fit the drake like this, but did it to get a like for like comparison) the Tengu gives me 514 dps with 5 launchers. So maybe not "slightly more".
Why use it?? It tanks better than a BS does decent damage and flies like, if not better than a cruiser, ie sig, maneuverability, etc and is extremely adaptable, so you can do anything from missioning to soloing all the way up to C4 wh in it.
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xenodia
Gallente DYNAMIC INTERVENTION ORPHANS OF EVE
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Posted - 2010.11.02 19:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel stuff
First and foremost, T3 are all about versatility. By swapping out the subsystems, you can change the ships bonuses and slot layout. You can also give different special abilities, such as being able to use the covert ops cloak, or bonuses to scan probes, or both.
In a nutshell, T3 are cruiser maneuverability, with BC damage output and BS level tanks.
Imagine the coolness of a ship which can warp around cloaked, and do 500-600 DPS, and have over 200k ehp, all at once. You can do that on a T3 with the right setup, skills, and implants. Or you can get rid of the cov ops cloak and do around 800 DPS with 230k EHP.
T3 arent perfect, as they do have some glaring weaknesses, the main one being that they are very susceptible to nos/neuts as they are very cap reliant generally (if anyone comes up with a halfway decent passive setup for a tengu, please let me know. Ive tried and it really just screams for an active tank). But despite their weaknesses, their strengths and flexibility make them very effective in the right hands. This signature space for rent |
Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.11.02 19:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel I was away for awhile, and after returning, I didn't spend much time looking into T3, and now as I do, I am not sure I understand their role, specifically,
Swiss army knife.
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.11.02 19:16:00 -
[18]
If you use a t3 for one thing at a time , you can often find something better at that thing (0.0 cargo running being the most obvious exception)
T3s have the ability to do multiple things without re-fitting.
For example I ran a Tengu that did 623 dps with scourge furies, could tank better then a drake, but most importantly,AND SCAN like a cov-ops.
Scanning for signatures is alot easier if you don't have to go back and switch ships.
and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.02 19:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton the heavy missile tengu should have slightly more than slightly more dps than a drake, should be closer to the raven or even CNR in terms of dps.
not quite.
HLM tengu has just a tiny bit more dps than the HML drake, without considering any kind of damage mod in both ships
we're talking about 246dps on the tengu vs the 212 dps of the drake.
the main difference lies in the fact that the tengu can use the lows for dmg mods, and they are usually pimp.
that and you can train the offensive sub skill to 5, which will give a 285dps to the tengu, but then again, when you factor drake's drones, it actually does 5 more dps ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
xenodia
Gallente DYNAMIC INTERVENTION ORPHANS OF EVE
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Posted - 2010.11.02 19:36:00 -
[20]
and the Tengu does that DPS with fewer launchers than a drake, which means less ammo consumption. Thats not always a factor, but might be depending on what youre doing. This signature space for rent |
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.02 19:40:00 -
[21]
How-can-the-tengu be better-than-the drake it's so-op?
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: xenodia and the Tengu does that DPS with fewer launchers than a drake, which means less ammo consumption. Thats not always a factor, but might be depending on what youre doing.
yes, that's a factor indeed.
but pound-per-pound, the HML tengu dps isn't that stellar. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Corporal Punishment08
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: xenodia and the Tengu does that DPS with fewer launchers than a drake, which means less ammo consumption. Thats not always a factor, but might be depending on what youre doing.
I think Launch times play a large role in the increased DPS of the HML Tengu. You are launching missiles at a faster rate, so if your DPS from missiles alone is higher in the Tengu, I would think you are firing more missiles. I think you get the same bonuses to kinetic dmg if you are at lvl 5 skills for Drake Battlecruiser, or for Accellerated Ejection Bay sub skill for Tengu, but I can't quite remember. But the Tengu gets a RoF bonus
■Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance and 5% bonus kinetic damage of heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles ■99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules
Subsystem Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to kinetic missile damage per level 7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Assault missile launcher rate of fire per level 10% bonus to heavy missile and heavy assault missile velocity per level
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omgfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Grimpak
T1 = workhorse T2 = speciality roles T3 = SUPER workhorse with limited racial ewar
Fixed.
The problem with versatility is people almost instantly move to the absolute best fit possible, and ONLY use that. So the T3 has naturally moved to it's most powerful role.
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Corporal Punishment08
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:56:00 -
[25]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez The problem with versatility is people almost instantly move to the absolute best fit possible, and ONLY use that. So the T3 has naturally moved to it's most powerful role.
I think the problem is the price. If a T3 Cruiser was cheaper, you would see them in multiple roles ALOT more often. I'm not going to risk a T3 cruiser when a Force Recon will do the trick. I'm not going to risk a T3 Cruiser when a Drake will do the job. etc etc. But then again, if a T3 was alot cheaper, that would void all other ships I suppose.
The only way to fix that is to make training for them alot longer. I could fly a T3 in like 3 days or something. To fly it at all lvl 5 subs has taken me 2 weeks or so. To get Strategic Cruiser to 5 will take another week or two, but who needs to be able to overheat mods that much when it's only ever going to see PVE at that price.
Cause the same logic applies to all other ships. Why fly a Caracal when a Cerb will do it better. My thing was not isk, it was training time. That's why it took me 1.5 years before I decided to train up for a cerb.
I think it's safe to say that now adays money is no object, especially after seeing all the failfits and especially failfit faction T3s out there being flown by newbs. Make the training times longer for T3 ships, ALOT longer, the ships cheaper, bring out T3 Battlecruisers already, bob's your uncle, T3s fixed! All subs will see more use this way methinks
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Random Alt1467
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Posted - 2010.11.02 21:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 Make the training times longer for T3 ships, ALOT longer.
No and no. You risk skill points for flying a T3 into harms way. Weather you have an updated clone or not, you lose trianing time if you die while in a T3.
T3 ships are supposed to be expesnsive because the have the capability of replacing an entire hangar's worth of ships and are designed for WH living as their main role. The only reason I fly ships other then my T3, especially for PvE is because I like variety. With the exception of a hauling ship I could use a T3 cruiser for the rest of my days and never need another ship. No other ship on the game can claim that.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.02 21:21:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Grimpak on 02/11/2010 21:22:56
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Originally by: Grimpak
T1 = workhorse T2 = speciality roles T3 = SUPER workhorse with limited racial ewar
Fixed.
The problem with versatility is people almost instantly move to the absolute best fit possible, and ONLY use that. So the T3 has naturally moved to it's most powerful role.
tbh tengu is the only one that I know of that can cover more than 2 roles or so.
it's the only one that I would use as a bigger, meaner and sturdier cov ops. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.03 05:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Grimpak tbh tengu is the only one that I know of that can cover more than 2 roles or so.
The Loki works as Super-Hurricane, damage-dealing Rapier, AHAC or unprobable command ship.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.11.03 09:22:00 -
[29]
T3: any role's a goal.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.11.03 10:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
I think it's safe to say that now adays money is no object, especially after seeing all the failfits and especially failfit faction T3s out there being flown by newbs. Make the training times longer for T3 ships, ALOT longer, the ships cheaper, bring out T3 Battlecruisers already, bob's your uncle, T3s fixed! All subs will see more use this way methinks
The next step into T3-land for CCP should obviously be T3 frigates, not T3 battlecruisers,
-- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude |
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