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Kingston Black
Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
38
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Posted - 2012.08.23 21:56:00 -
[91] - Quote
man up, stop being greedy and doing sanctums in shiney fit marauders solo and do your sanctums in a fleet of cheap ships with points you'll make more money than you lose if ganked and you may well kill the ganker
if you can't hande this then maybe 0.0 is not for you |
Loius Woo
PATRIOT KNIGHTS
172
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Posted - 2012.08.23 22:45:00 -
[92] - Quote
Loius Woo wrote: What dire situation is likely or possible to happen when there is a cloaked ship in local that is not possible or likely when they are not there or not cloaked?
Again I ask since you cannot or will not answer this simple question. |
Zemfadel
Hand Trade Society
3
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Posted - 2012.08.23 23:02:00 -
[93] - Quote
Quote:They are trying to do both. Subvert local instant intel and have you stop ratting/mining. Whether either happens is down to the local residents and out of the AFKer's control.
so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right? It's not possible for a player, or group of players, to both continue mining/ratting/whatever and also continue to use local as an intel source. they MUST either stop using local as an intel source OR stop mining/ratting/whatever.
This means that there is no situation where afk cloaking fails and since there is no way to locate, track, destroy, or in any way interact with a cloaked ship (aside from bumping it which is only possible if you already know where it is) there is also no way to "fight" an afk cloaker. There for, afk cloaking (sitting in a system for a long time while cloaked) as a tactic can't be countered or combated and is always successful. It is the definition of lopsided.
If i continue to rat in a large group it is completely feasible that the "afk cloaker" could, after having succeeded at subverting local while out drinking with his friends, come back and cyno in a fleet of his friends and kill all of us. He got exactly what he wanted (lots of juicy kills) because he pressed [F1] and left eve running while he was out doing something else, gaining himself a huge advantage (subverting local) without having to even be in his house much less at the keyboard.
This is a perfectly acceptable and fair tactic if your actually playing the game while your doing it. You want to read a book, do homework, jerk off, whatever, while you sit in a system "subverting local" I say go for it (not much different than mining). The locals will still have to make the exact same choice, either ignore you/assume they can take you and your friends or stop doing anything in local. The suggestion by the OP would most certainly allow for this, but getting either one of these wins while out mowing the lawn is wrong. Your gaining something in game without playing the game.
I am all for overhauling local but since a local overhaul is a HUGE job that will probably take CCP the better part of a decade there should be a fix implemented that stops people from being able to go afk for 23 hours while cloaked without disturbing the current LEGITIMATE uses for cloaking. The OPs idea would do this perfectly. the ONLY thing that it would stop is people who are afk, and there for people who are gaining an advantage without actually playing |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10085
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Posted - 2012.08.24 07:34:00 -
[94] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote:so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right? No, neither are guaranteed.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
396
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Posted - 2012.08.24 08:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote:while stopping people from having there toon cloaked in a system while they are at work so that they can return to a system with other players who have gone about their business and are easy targets for a quick ambush. this is exactly why afk cloaking is done. Nothing wrong with that. You use cloak for your safety, the enemy has to use afk cloaking to reduce the usefulness of exact that undisruptable intel. Tell me another way to counter local as intel for catching those people.
Zemfadel wrote:2. Unless things have change in the last year CCP has said they aren't removing local in null sec, get over it. Local was removed in W-space so that people have that game play if they want it. yeah. Exactly as with cloaking. If you cant handle hostile neutrals hanging aronud, go to high sec where afk cloakers have no purpose.
Zemfadel wrote:3. Going about your business with an afk cloaker is exactly what they want you to do. Its a win win situation for the afk cloaker really, either you stop doing anything in that system no. You can do pretty everything, apart of mindlessly ratting or mining solo probably.
Zemfadel wrote:(they win by stopping you from being able to play without even being at the computer) or you go about your business (they win by being able to return to the computer with soft targets). no. Its you who are stopping you from playing because 1) you are only ratting 2) you have chosen wrong place to play
Zemfadel wrote:There is literally no down side or challenge to over come with afk cloaking, you always win and can never be killed (baring utter stupidity) or even threatened. while sitting afk cloaked yeah you basically cant be killed. On the other hand you gain no profit by just sitting afk, profit only generated when you decloak and expose yourself to risk. You block an entire account from doing something useful else. What downside has sitting in POS or docked btw?
[qquote=Zemfadel]4. AFK cloaking is very similar to macro mining, even if it upsets you to admit it. In both instances a player is gaining an advantage with out actively playing the game[/quote] most stupid argument ever. I'm training skills afk or even offline. My industry jobs and market orders complete while I'm completely afk or offline.
[qquote=Zemfadel]. macro mining gets you ore, afk cloaking gets you easy targets. At least macro mining has an in game counter (shooting the macro miner), afk cloaking, and the advantage it affords (depriving other players of any reaction time when the afk cloaker finally decides to return among other things), has no counter in game or out. So afk cloaking is worse than macro mining. Even if CCP weren't trying to stop macro mining, there would be a way for other players to stop it, or at least make it harder. Not so much with afk cloaking. [/quote] afk cloaking does not need any counter because it doesnt do any harm to anyone while afk, nor does it give you any profit while afk. Just sitting somewhere shouldnt have any penalties and must be possible at any time. Because, why the heck should it not????
CCP WHAT THE **** IS THIS STUPID RESTRICTION OF 5 QUOTES??????????????? FIX IT |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
396
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Posted - 2012.08.24 08:06:00 -
[96] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote:afk cloaking gains you an advantage by forcing other players to either treat you as an active player and stop local activity (even when your inactive) or treat you like your afk and go about their business. in the first situation the cloaker is stopping you from playing (earning is, mining ore, moving good, etc.) even if they aren't playing then (afk). In the second case the cloaker can attack you without your ability to react to their presence (accept for when they appear on your overview). They are gaining an advantage by either forcing you to stop playing or forcing you to assume they are afk and continue playing while they are not playing. This means that when they return they will either have a soft target (assuming the cloaker is still afk) or have shut down a system. this is how it works yes. And there is nothing wrong with it. You use intel for your safety, others go just there sit afk forever just to make local of less use for you. This is just fine and required by current local mechanics. You dock up when a neutral enters system, fine, then I will just go and sit there simply to be able to kill you at some point (days after). This is right. Thanks to local mechanics telling you instantly I'm there. You shouldnt have this kind of faultless instant intel at all.
Zemfadel wrote:Again, i would be perfectly ok with this tactic if the cloaker were forced to be at the computer while doing this. No, if this wouldnt work afk it wouldnt work at all, because it takes a lot of time to reach its effectiveness peak. Its not cloakers fault you cant play, its your fault living in a space you arent adapted to and cant do anything with neutral in local - exactly such people are primary targets of afk cloakers, stupid people unable to handle simple situations - its not fault of cloak mechanics its just people failing at this game and so becoming targets for other people. |
anishamora
Atelierele Grivita
14
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Posted - 2012.08.24 12:54:00 -
[97] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote: so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right? It's not possible for a player, or group of players, to both continue mining/ratting/whatever and also continue to use local as an intel source. they MUST either stop using local as an intel source OR stop mining/ratting/whatever.
Nope, you can continue ratting and not give a **** about the random non-blue in your system. Either he shows up and you get a fight or he doesn't and you keep doing what you like. Point in my case:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13308448 T1 large beams ftw.
Nullsec wasn't supposed to be ez-mode or solo player's heaven. If you believe there's someone cloaked in your system, fit your ship accordingly, switch to one with drones, more tank less gank, use an alt in 'cane to guard you. Form a small gang and do w/e you did grouped.
Let's say I'm a lone miner in a remote hi-sec system; suddenly local+1: should I dock and wait for the guy to leave because he might be a suicide ganker? Should I go whining to CCP to remove the ability for them to gank me? No, I'm not an idiot, I'll keep doing what I do. If he'll actually kill me next time I'll use a tanky bait and watch him get popped by concord.
Your only problem is that there is ONE single little thing that might be used to ruin your safe ratting paradise and instead of finding a solution you call upon CCP to change the rules for you. This is EVE you're playing, HTFU. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
510
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Posted - 2012.08.24 14:10:00 -
[98] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:You shouldnt have this kind of faultless instant intel at all, to begin with. THIS
We have no effort intel right now dumbing down our reactions. If you are too lazy to at least start scanning for hostiles, or take some tactical preventive measures, go to high sec.
You will never have a guarantee of safety in EVE.
If the pilot was not cloaked in your system, then he could be next door with a bookmark to your location. You are in trouble if you look away for just ten seconds either way.
We LIKE it this way.
It makes our rewards feel like they weren't just handed to us on a silver platter, like we earned them in a hostile environment instead of a daycare for small children. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Weasel Juice
Exanimo Inc Anger Management.
10
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Posted - 2012.08.24 14:14:00 -
[99] - Quote
There was an AFK cloaker in Dodixie. I was too scared to undock. True story.
It's not only far more likely a corp mate will drop a Cyno in your supercarriers face than a cloaked unknown will do anything, but d-scan would hard counter any attempts of such a ship to probe down you whilst carebearing. Yes, it will mean you have to do something and pay attention, but you have to do this regardless. Your intel channel certainly won't help you if a neut comes through a WH and sees your ratting Chimera in STUP-1D.
Interestingly it's mostly people complaining about this when they do carebearing, because they feel comfortable in dangerous space with their expensive ships. In PvP most people couldn't care less if there was an AFK cloaker.
And even if it was a real issue - if you bring a counter to "AFK cloaking", people will just be "AFK MWDing at 5-10km/s" in some frigate.
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Zemfadel
Hand Trade Society
3
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Posted - 2012.08.24 21:10:00 -
[100] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Zemfadel wrote:so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right? No, neither are guaranteed.
So your trying to say that if there is a cloaker in a system you have more choices than to either go about your business or stop going about your business? I'm almost positive that those are the only two options and you must choose one.
Maybe an example will help you (I'm guessing you actually understand just fine but you dont like the consequences of admitting it). A ship jumps into the null sec system where you live. Your choices are; [1] continue about your business (abandon local as in intel source or "subvert local"), [2] stop continuing about your business (stop mining/ratting/etc.). There for, either choice that you make is a victory for the afk cloaker, and since you MUST make one of these two choices afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful.
Your choices are [A] or not [A] What is the other choice that you claim exists? If you actually have one I'm sure there are a lot of philosophers that would be very interested.
anishamora wrote: ... Nope, you can continue ratting and not give a **** about the random non-blue in your system. Either he shows up and you get a fight or he doesn't and you keep doing what you like...
continuing to rat still constitutes being successful for an afk cloaker since you are now a soft target
Robert Caldera wrote:Zemfadel wrote:Again, i would be perfectly ok with this tactic if the cloaker were forced to be at the computer while doing this. No, if this wouldn't work afk it wouldn't work at all, because it takes a lot of time to reach its effectiveness peak...
Exactly. Your gaining an advantage while being afk. You want to get easy kills (or the chance at them) without having to do any of the work for them. You don't want to have to actually sit there and play eve while you gain your advantage (until "[sitting cloaked in local reaches] its effectiveness peak"), you want to be doing something else. This is the exact same as a macro miner saying they don't want to sit and mine all day to get what they want, macro mining just has a more detrimental effect to the overall game.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10248
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Posted - 2012.08.25 03:22:00 -
[101] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote:Mag's wrote:Zemfadel wrote:so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right? No, neither are guaranteed. So your trying to say that if there is a cloaker in a system you have more choices than to either go about your business or stop going about your business? I already stated what they can do. So you're either trolling, or have reading and comprehension issues.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Tidurious
ResLife Can Suck It
222
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Posted - 2012.08.25 03:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
There is no solution to this "problem", since there is no problem to begin with. This has been debated over and over again, and if you were able to read, then you would know that. No point starting a new thread to discuss an old (non)issue. |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1287
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Posted - 2012.08.25 05:17:00 -
[103] - Quote
As always, liking every single Mag's post itt. |
CaleAdaire
Research Industry Mining and Support Gatekeepers Universe
53
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Posted - 2012.08.25 05:36:00 -
[104] - Quote
Americe Zane wrote:This thread again?
Why not just delete Cov Ops from game? Disrupting the enemy is part of the Cov Ops role. BURN IT WITH FIRE!!
Honestly bad idea. I'm bored... Let's shoot the rocks. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10259
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Posted - 2012.08.25 06:21:00 -
[105] - Quote
Feligast wrote:As always, liking every single Mag's post itt. <3
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
404
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Posted - 2012.08.25 11:14:00 -
[106] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote: Exactly. Your gaining an advantage while being afk. You want to get easy kills (or the chance at them)
people hide as soon as you go there. So there is nothing wrong with afking there till some of them get bored of hiding. Its all legit. I have no other choice than that, assumed I targeted a certain group of people because I dont like them for some reason, the only chance of killing them is force them to come out by boring them to death over some period of time by just being there. ALL LEGIT! btw. Why shouldnt it be possible to afk whereever you like? Makes no sense. |
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