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Zos Tarkross
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.09.02 23:57:00 -
[1]
Hi all - last Friday night I had some time free and found myself wanting to try station trading in Jita. Here's the output of all matched buys and sells (some items were brought in from outside the region, they affect the avg price per item somewhat, but weren't counted in the cleaned data). Time frame is a few updates per day on the weekend, a bit on Monday, more on Tuesday & a bit on Wed (morning updates before work and then some in the evening).
This will be of no interest to the "big boys" but may be so for smaller traders. Yes, I know I'm creating competition for myself by doing this but I don't plan to do much Jita trading here on in. The speed with which one gets 0.01 ISKed is quite amazing in some items. Some may recall I did a rags-to-riches experiment some time back in which I purposely avoided Jita.
Data - apologize for formatting but cut/paste into Excel and it should be more visible:
Item NameAvg BuyAvg SellUnits TradedTotal ProfitProfit / ItemProfit % Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I1178655195606216124385177774070.66 Limited Cybernetic Subprocessor - Beta256062536987488910498511381230.44 250mm Light 'Scout' Artillery I2013008322001063090006309003.13 Plasma Physics408800084380001435000043500001.06 Limited Memory Augmentation - Beta335800046671723392751613091720.39 Low-grade Crystal Beta15512000192740001376200037620000.24 Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I100315413128951030974073097410.31 Mega Pulse Laser II20113332333000825733293216660.16 Beta Hull Mod Nanofiber Structure3410482593502424474484891.42 125mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I18110002390000423160005790000.32 Mega Modal Pulse Laser I150300025790002215200010760000.72 Limited Neural Boost - Beta28156673531667321480007160000.25 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I12120001628798520839894167980.34 Modal Mega Neutron Particle Accelerator I3981005596001016149981615000.41 Limited Ocular Filter - Beta26810003156333314259984753330.18 200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I15102501839493413169733292430.22 Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Lancer' G1-Beta509500063980001130300013030000.26 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I9010001144000512150002430000.27 425mm Medium 'Scout' Autocannon I44965005035000210770005385000.12 Limited Social Adaptation Chip - Beta24744434966799200001022220.41 350mm 'Scout' I Accelerator Cannon58727381400049069092267270.39 150mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I5030006000368776288970360.19 Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I75120087639956259961251990.17 Beta Hull Mod Expanded Cargo26150049100024590002295000.88 Modal Neutron Particle Accelerator I38124003899996187596875960.02
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Zos Tarkross
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.09.03 00:02:00 -
[2]
some commentary:
- item with most profit was Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, with total of 12.4 million ISK for that item out of a total gross profit of 68.4 million ISK on all items. Good spread and decent daily volume.
- two implants (the "Limited... Beta" ones) were also decent
- the "Modal Neutron Particle Accelerator I" looked promising initially (OK spread) but the bid/offer shrank very fast after I bought some. Still managed to sell out but at an offer not much higher than the bid (2%)
- I wouldn't have expected this but my 3rd most profitable item was a sub 1 million module, the "250mm Light 'Scout' Artillery I" - low price was made up for by volume
Cheers and happy to discuss - anyone else want to compare notes?
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Builder Robert
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Posted - 2010.09.03 00:03:00 -
[3]
You really should just put the spreadsheet (or this part of it) on google docs or link a screenshot of it.
At first I read the "Item Profit %" as a percentage, lol.
Cheers o7
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Zos Tarkross
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.09.03 00:18:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Builder Robert You really should just put the spreadsheet (or this part of it) on google docs or link a screenshot of it.
thanks for the prompt - just tried to upload the screenshot to "tinypic" and added a link - seems to work
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Estimated Prophet
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Posted - 2010.09.03 00:41:00 -
[5]
I'm not seeing taxes and broker fees in your calculations. Are they taken into account? If not, how different are your figures when you do?
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Zos Tarkross
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Estimated Prophet I'm not seeing taxes and broker fees in your calculations. Are they taken into account? If not, how different are your figures when you do?
probably quite a bit different. I am just using data exported from the API so I don't have the net amount. But guessing avg 2% off the traded value would be about 6 million ISK off (about 300 million x 2%). I probably should figure that in.
I would try to use one of the wallet tools, but I haven't done too much work around that - I'm not too serious about the trading, just dabble in it from time to time. I would want something that a) works for the Mac, b) is free (or by donation) and c) is open source.
I'll open up the client in the next while and look back at my transaction log to estimate the fees/taxes on a sample of transactions.
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Shak'Rah
The Unforgettables Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.09.03 03:05:00 -
[7]
i'm interested in starting in trading, and i'm getting into it a bit by moving items where they're low and selling them where they're priced higher. there's a lot of long trips between market hubs but i can net 10-20mil per ship sold (i deal in t2 cruisers for the most part).
okay, so i'm looking at the tinypic there which is fairly simple to understand. basically what you're doing is finding an item that has a high volume of trade (it gets bought and sold a lot) and you are placing a buy order for less than what the item is selling for (Q1). after you acquire the number of items in question or the time runs out you then turn around and sell it in jita for it's true market value, right?
(Q1): do you only place buy orders in jita itself or do you place an order for the 5 jumps closest to jita? and do you also only place orders for high volume units or do you place orders for things that have a decent gap between buy and sell prices (say 15%)?
out of curiosity, what do you mean by the 'big boys'? i assume they are traders as well but do they run corporations or alliances that produce items and therefore control the market, to an extent?
excuse my nubbishness at this; though i've played eve for three years and know every other aspect of eve trading and manufacturing is something that i haven't gotten into and would like to learn =/ ---
Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius, and it is better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring. |
MightyMandria
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Posted - 2010.09.03 05:32:00 -
[8]
Say hello to losing all your profits.
There's a reason why experienced traders don't "compare notes." You're going to learn why shortly.
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Nathan Jameson
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Posted - 2010.09.03 06:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: MightyMandria Say hello to losing all your profits.
There's a reason why experienced traders don't "compare notes." You're going to learn why shortly.
Yeah, he listed a number of the items I move as well. I take solace in the fact that there will be a temporary rush on these items, people will get tired of the .01 isk game for minimal profits, and everyone will leave the market again.
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Londo Cebb
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Posted - 2010.09.03 12:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: MightyMandria Say hello to losing all your profits.
There's a reason why experienced traders don't "compare notes." You're going to learn why shortly.
I don't think the OP is worried about profits long term on these items. Of course it could be some sort of extremely subtitle manipulation attempt but I really don't think so.
@ the OP: Thank you for this bit of market analysis. I found it interesting.
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Lucyna
Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.09.03 21:13:00 -
[11]
Yeah the percentages not being percentages were confusing at the start... I was initally curious as to how you were making any profit at all with the ones under what I thought was 1%, unless you had .2% broker fees. Then I realized.
Overall interesting. Time for you to try a less babysitting-intensive trade-style. _________ Eve - for when I'm not playing minecraft ;) |
Zos Tarkross
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.09.03 22:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lucyna Yeah the percentages not being percentages were confusing at the start...
Yes - I'm sorry. "Percentage" was not the proper term. The figure of 0.66 in the first row should be interpreted as 66% (calculated as (average sell / average buy) - 1 )
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Zos Tarkross
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.09.03 22:46:00 -
[13]
reply to Shak'Rah (a few posts back):
"basically what you're doing is finding an item that has a high volume of trade (it gets bought and sold a lot) and you are placing a buy order for less than what the item is selling for" correct. Each item has an amount that people are bidding the highest (say 1,000,000) and offering/selling (say 1,200,000). If I have an item and want to sell *now* I "hit the bid" and get 1,000,000 ISK in exchange for the item. Conversely if I wanted to buy one of the items *now* I "take the offer" and pay 1,200,000 ISK in exchange for the item. What I'm doing is coming in an putting in a higher bid, by a small amount (say I put in 1,001,000 for 10 items). As long as I stay highest (which in Jita, isn't very long) anyone coming to sell *now* will sell to me. I might then come in later and bump my bid up to again (in Jita, briefly) become the highest bidder. Once I'm filled on about half (say 4-6 items out of 10) I put them out for sale on offer at a slightly lower offer than current (eg I'll offer to sell for 1,199,000 instead of current lowest offer from someone else @ 1,200,000) "do you only place buy orders in jita itself " for this experiment, it was only buying/selling in Jita 4-4. But other times (eg look back on my posts re my "rags to riches" experiment a few months ago) I've tried extending the range of the buy orders outside of the current station & system. "do you also only place orders for high volume units or do you place orders for things that have a decent gap between buy and sell prices (say 15%)" both. Looking at my data most things had a bid/offer gap of at least 20% (based on initial analysis - some of the bid/offer gap shrank on some items over a few days due to competition) and in many cases the gap was +50%. But I also wanted to do this on high volume items although I confess that a few items are just "old favourites" from trading in different regions. I know nothing about trading minerals, salvage parts, POS commodities or construction stuff (but maybe I should) using these methods. Generally I do a calculation of "trade potential" buy looking at the bid/offer gap and multiplying that by eyeballing an average volume per day. You also want to analyze from the graph (usually, last 10 days, 1 month or 3 months) that trades get executed at or near both the bid and the offer. Otherwise you can be stuck bidding forever and never get supplied, which happens if most trading occurs by people buying from the offers and rarely by people "hitting bids". Before commencing I went through and ranked a number of modules by this metric. However, once you have traded some you can use analysis of your own trades to narrow down the ones with potential (because those made *you* the most money). "out of curiosity, what do you mean by the 'big boys'" The legendary MD l33t ("Market Discussion Elite") - those who may or may not post on this forum and through their market activities have more ISK than can possibly be spent, etc... "excuse my nubbishness at this" no problem - I consider myself a noob also vs the l33t
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Zombatar
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Posted - 2010.09.04 10:14:00 -
[14]
So you made around 50 million in profit over the period of one week? I see only one flaw in your style, choosing Jita. If you don't have the time to update daily at least a dozen times, then this model wont work at optimum levels. .1 ISK wars are the best alternative PvP EVE has to offer to regular PvP, best place to find it is in Jita. lol If you can update every hour or so you could make way more doing that.
There are better ways to make more money trading with fewer updates, or almost none.
Still a very interesting analysis. Thank you. Looking forward to new ones.
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Zos Tarkross
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.09.05 11:02:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zombatar I see only one flaw in your style, choosing Jita... ...There are better ways to make more money trading with fewer updates, or almost none.
I agree on your first point to some extent. Jita is extremely competitive - the best way to "win" would be to act like a robot and update orders every 5 minutes continuously for hours on end. Since I was not doing this, I didn't win - but this was more of an experiment to see if making ISK was even possible - I've never tackled the "Jita station-trading monster" before. At least I did make some rather than losing, but didn't make as much as I would have hoped.
Re your next point - I am indeed looking for that "magic" method - more money, less clicks :-)
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Zombatar
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Posted - 2010.09.05 11:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zos Tarkross
Originally by: Zombatar I see only one flaw in your style, choosing Jita... ...There are better ways to make more money trading with fewer updates, or almost none.
I agree on your first point to some extent. Jita is extremely competitive - the best way to "win" would be to act like a robot and update orders every 5 minutes continuously for hours on end. Since I was not doing this, I didn't win - but this was more of an experiment to see if making ISK was even possible - I've never tackled the "Jita station-trading monster" before. At least I did make some rather than losing, but didn't make as much as I would have hoped.
Re your next point - I am indeed looking for that "magic" method - more money, less clicks :-)
Well the secret would be to diversify in all aspects: items , systems, way of trading, etc. This way you are bound to sell somewhere or buy really cheap and then sell high. The more you expand the more you will earn daily. Also try to think about what people buy, if hes buying some kinetic resistance he might look for thermal too. This way the same person will buy more at the same time. Also size matters. I mean having 10 sell orders in one station will not bring much incentive for trading since you might not sell anything for days, having 100 sell orders in 10 stations, well that makes things much better.
This works pretty nicely with few clicks if you're not in large hubs. You can manage once a day or less and still do nicely.
Golden rule: You simply have to invest some time and effort (and skillpoints) for things to take off. Once you fly you'll find trading the best passive income one can hope for.
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49473
Jita Trade and Research Institute
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Posted - 2010.09.05 11:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zos Tarkross
Originally by: Zombatar I see only one flaw in your style, choosing Jita... ...There are better ways to make more money trading with fewer updates, or almost none.
I agree on your first point to some extent. Jita is extremely competitive - the best way to "win" would be to act like a robot and update orders every 5 minutes continuously for hours on end. Since I was not doing this, I didn't win - but this was more of an experiment to see if making ISK was even possible - I've never tackled the "Jita station-trading monster" before. At least I did make some rather than losing, but didn't make as much as I would have hoped.
Re your next point - I am indeed looking for that "magic" method - more money, less clicks :-)
Thank you for the piece of market analysis.
If you could formalise your trading method here to a greater degree I would be interested in the results. However, as you have mentioned the scaleability vs time invested of such trading is limited.
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