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Davros Fanvor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:29:00 -
[1]
Ok i know what DPS stands for - damage per second yes?
but my thoughts are, do many of the players really know what it means?
Why is it that so many people in eve fail to realise the maths part of 'per second'?
I see so many people saying i do X thousand DPS with my guns/lasers/missiles or i can tank 4000 DPS on my BC/BS
I'm quite sure that should mean that the person heals 4000 hp every second, which is surely not possible on a BC or BS - this would mean running booster/reppers at some 16000 on a 4 second cycle???
Or with the damage, why do they simply take what damage the whole volley did and claim that as their DPS - i swear more people claim that's their DPS than don't claim it. Do so many forget that really that volley figure needs to be divided by the rate of fire of the guns/lasers/launchers etc for it to be 'per second'?
Why can't people simply say my booster/repper heals this per cycle or my damage is this per volley. Are they trying to look better and harder in their ships or just silly with calculations? I have people laugh at me when i say my booster does 500 ish DPS healing for a battleship, when really this is some 2000+ per cycle that perma runs and can tank even the bonus room on angel extravaganza without moving an inch (this i know many people can't do without moving away from the guns and ships or warping out)
Has it simply become the norm to use the term DPS without thinking what it really means and how to properly calculate it? Has the term DPS become overused and incorrectly used? Should we not be switching to maybe DPC (damage per cycle) and DPV (damage per volley)?
I'm bored at work by the way so figured i'd put something on here lol
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King Dave
The Collective
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:33:00 -
[2]
Using officer/ deadspace modules, it is possible to get 4k tanks on some battleships. It wouldn't be 4,000 rep per second, more like 8-900, but would be coupled with extremely high resistances. --------- "Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child **** in the corp bio and then petition ccp" |
Sutskop
PILSGESCHWADER
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:34:00 -
[3]
Well, there is dps and there is volley damage, and no sane person I know mixes those up. So, name and shame?
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NoNah
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:35:00 -
[4]
When talking about tanks you use the term of tanked dps as it often includes some sort of resistances. Either an average of how much you can tank when all incoming damage is equal(like EFT does by default), by a specific damage profile(like when you're working on pve tanks) or to the lowest resistance(like eve does for effective hp).
If you tank 4000 dps in a bs/bc(which by no means is impossible, just... hard) you'll most certainly have resistances well into the 90's for the relevant types. Say you have 95% in average, this means you will need to regenerate 200 hitpoints per second, or 800 per 4 second cycle.
As for damage output, the norm is for people to grasp basic concepts like DPS, volleys and alphadamage or even damage projection and falloff - but there will always be new and daft players. Hell, look at the numbers who can't even spell words like "turret", "kestrel" or "capital". Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 782097
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Intigo
Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:43:00 -
[5]
my kestral duz 591 dps every tiam i shot missiles (i cant use turrents lol) ___________________
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:45:00 -
[6]
The only common confusion I recall seeing is theà interestingà use "DPS per second", which would rather denote accelerating damage. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
NoNah
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tippia The only common confusion I recall seeing is theà interestingà use "DPS per second", which would rather denote accelerating damage.
I guess it could make sense on a typhoon...
Or in a fleet engagement in lowsec, evaluating the fleet performance. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 197480
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Telvani
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:49:00 -
[8]
actually DPS per second would imply rate of change of DPS, e.g as I swipe my finger from F1-F8 (assuming I forgot how to group weapons) I gain 10000DPS per second. |
Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
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Posted - 2010.08.30 17:50:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ultim8Evil on 30/08/2010 17:51:08 When people mention tank dps, they mean raw unresisted dps.
Say you have 80% resists across the board. That instantly converts the incoming 4000 omni-damage dps to 800 received dps.
It is not misleading to say you can tank 4000 dps. The fact that you have the resists *is* the tank.
It doesn't mean you're repping 4000 dps.
EDIT: Going afk halfway through replying 4tl. Multiple explanations above mine
If you're reading this, you've read too far and now you're on my sig. Concentrate on what I said before you got to this bit. Ok? |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:02:00 -
[10]
Is the term you're looking for "misused" and not "overused"?
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Davros Fanvor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:05:00 -
[11]
So the term DPS is not an actual true figure then?
So surely its still partially void as so many people have so many different skills, different ships, different weapons/ammo etc etc etc.
All these different variations of what people can be against, whether PVP or PVE, leave the term DPS slightly void as they might not actually do anywhere near what they claim to be doing against most people they meet?
So its more effective DPS at level damage types rather than actual regeneration DPS which is what i claim.
My ship isn't crappy at around 2000 booster cycle, running perma cap - so i really should be upping the amount i say for DPS as my resistances run from 75-90%??? Not literally saying, this is how much i regenerate (Which would be what RPS - regeneration per second? lol :P )
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Davros Fanvor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:10:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Intigo my kestral duz 591 dps every tiam i shot missiles (i cant use turrents lol)
ok so for instance here - intigo has said they do 591 dps in a kestral everytime they shoot. So lets say those launchers have a rate of fire of even 6 seconds (probabaly more than that) - so the volley of that kestrel is some 3500+ damage? Surely that can't be right and that this then is a prime example of what i mean when people are using the term DPS incorrectly?
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:27:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sigras on 30/08/2010 18:28:06
Originally by: Davros Fanvor
Originally by: Intigo my kestral duz 591 dps every tiam i shot missiles (i cant use turrents lol)
ok so for instance here - intigo has said they do 591 dps in a kestral everytime they shoot. So lets say those launchers have a rate of fire of even 6 seconds (probabaly more than that) - so the volley of that kestrel is some 3500+ damage? Surely that can't be right and that this then is a prime example of what i mean when people are using the term DPS incorrectly?
yeah he didnt use DPS correctly, what he meant to say was "my kestral[SIC] duz[SIC] 591 damage every tiam[SIC] i shot[SIC] missiles"
thats volley damage not DPS; given your assumption that he has a 6 second ROF he would be doing 591/6 = 98.5 DPS or damage/second would be another way of saying DPS
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Davros Fanvor
Originally by: Intigo my kestral duz 591 dps every tiam i shot missiles (i cant use turrents lol)
ok so for instance here - intigo has said they do 591 dps in a kestral everytime they shoot. So lets say those launchers have a rate of fire of even 6 seconds (probabaly more than that) - so the volley of that kestrel is some 3500+ damage? Surely that can't be right and that this then is a prime example of what i mean when people are using the term DPS incorrectly?
You got trolled.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Davros Fanvor Surely that can't be right and that this then is a prime example of what i mean when people are using the term DPS incorrectly?
You need a proper sarcasm filter to interpret almost all of Intigo's posts.
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Intigo
Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Davros Fanvor Surely that can't be right and that this then is a prime example of what i mean when people are using the term DPS incorrectly?
You need a proper sarcasm filter to interpret almost all of Intigo's posts.
Maybe he was trolling all along and he's using my post as a spinoff for the ultimate troll.
OH MY HEAD :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck:
No, really - this thread is stupid. The term is not overused, it is misused (as mentioned earlier) once in a while and regardless of that it's most certainly not thread-worthy. ___________________
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Davros Fanvor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:37:00 -
[17]
He might of been being sarcastic, trolling etc - but he still provided an example that so many people in this game use.
I'm quite happy to accept the tanking 'effective' DPS that has been shown, but still got many people saying they do 500/1000/2000/3000 DPS with whatever weapon they are using.
So now it becomes a question of people mis-using the term DPS when attacking.
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Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Davros Fanvor Ok i know what DPS stands for - damage per second yes?
but my thoughts are, do many of the players really know what it means?
...
he mad?
Thought I'd put something up here too. o/\o
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Daergaar
Caldari Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Davros Fanvor Edited by: Davros Fanvor on 30/08/2010 18:38:02 He might of been being sarcastic, trolling etc - but he still provided an example that so many people in this game use.
I'm quite happy to accept the tanking 'effective' DPS that has been shown, but still got many people saying they do 500/1000/2000/3000 DPS with whatever weapon they are using.
So now it becomes a question of people mis-using the term DPS when attacking.
Edit: as said originally, i said i'm merely bored at work, you don't have to answer, i just thought i'd write something to waste time
Here's why DPS is a useful figure.
Suppose I do 500 DPS with my Drake (this is what people should be talking about, RAW unresisted DPS). It's easier to calculate how much incoming DPS you will be tanking by multiplying by your resists. So if you resist 50% kinetic, you'll only be tanking 250 DPS from my missiles.
It's not that useful to quote my DPS figure as "I do 250 DPS to 50% kinetic tanks" because then everyone else has to back-calculate my raw DPS if their resists are different!
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Daergaar
Caldari Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.30 18:50:00 -
[20]
To add to what I said above (making a new post because the forums are being stupid with jumping back up when typing new lines):
1. DPV (damage per volley) is also useful, because it lets you know if you're going to instapop something or break its tank.
2. DPS/T or DPS/L (damage per second per turret, damage per second per launcher) are useful too because they can help you decide if you can afford to lose a launcher or turret for utility slots.
3. ODPS (Overheated DPS) can be useful in helping to determine the outcome of short term engagements.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:13:00 -
[21]
Dammit Intigo, you are epically funny. <3
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:17:00 -
[22]
<ramble> The way it's most commonly used is as a comparison to raw damage output, which is a simple matter of figuring out damage per shot divided by the refire delay: if my guns do 100 HP damage, and fire twice a second, I do 200 DPS. Simple, fast, and perhaps more importantly, universally true. This is how much raw damage your ship pumps out.
To be of any use, though, this output has to be compared to damage soaking ability, which is expressed in either EHP or DPS, both of which take the damage composition and resists into consideration. Just as the damage output is so easy to calculate in the aforementioned way, it's much easier (and universally applicable) to figure in the resists on the tanking side ù after all, that's where the resits reside ù rather than apply them to the damage output.
It also offers you a more limited list: the damage composition for various kinds of ammo is well known, so it's easy to say "well, ship X tanks Y DPS against Antimatter L and Z against Multifreq lasers." It quickly provides some benchmark numbers against common sources of damage. Compared to what you'd have to do if you applied the resists to the damage side: "My guns do 198 damage if You have 66/57 Kn/Th resists" ù there are no benchmark resistsà
The key thing is that the two need to sit on the same scale so we can actually compare them: if my guns do 200 DPS (with a 3:2 Kn/Th split), saying that you rep back 50 HP per second tells us nothing ù what we need to know is if you get enough effective hitpoints back to counter that damage output or not. The common convention has thus become that damage output is expressed in (raw) DPS; tanking is expressed in either EHP or [effective] Damage [regen] Per Second, which depends on the relationship between the damage composition and your resists. In the latter case, we get the same acronym ù DPS ù but it's not the same kind of "raw" number because that wouldn't let us do any useful comparisons.
So yes, tanking DPS (and EHP) are entirely situational numbers that depend on what kind of weapon is used against you. The only real convention here is the "omni damage" (equal damage being applied to all resists), with a distant second being to supply what kind of incoming damage we're talking about on the assumption that the damage composition is relatively known (eg. against specific ammo, against specific rats). </ramble> ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:19:00 -
[23]
Quote: Ok i know what DPS stands for - damage per second yes?
Knowing what it stands for and how it used and what it means is completely different.
Quote: Why is it that so many people in eve fail to realise the maths part of 'per second'?
Only noobs to MMOs are the ones i see that dont understand it. DPS is pretty common in all MMOs.
Quote: I'm quite sure that should mean that the person heals 4000 hp every second, which is surely not possible on a BC or BS - this would mean running booster/reppers at some 16000 on a 4 second cycle???
NO it doesnt.You dont understand what DPS means... i mean really means, not just the defination of each word.
Offensively: Alpha = volley damage. Amount of DAMAGE PER HIT(DPH) DPS = DAMAGE PER SECOND. Amount of damage per volley divided by cycle time/speed of weapons. Because all games( at least ones that arent lame) weapons do different damages and have different speeds. Rockets fire faster than cruise missiles but cruise missiles hit harder for example. DPS lets you compare amount of damage output on average per sec.
Its more complicated than this because you have raw/base DPS which is what leaves your ship and actual/effective DPS what hits your target.People confuse these more often usually "effective" as they dont understand that dps that doesnt reach the target isnt very effective.
Defensively: EHP= Effective Hit Points. This is how much damage it would take to get through your buffered tank( Resist plus HP) Tanked DPS= This is how much DPS it takes to break a tank. Resist nullify a portion of incoming DPS. This is added to your tank. On shield tanks the passive recharge is factored and on active tanks boosters/reppers are added. This makes up your DPS tank. The amount of DPS that need to hit you in order for your tank to fail. Once your tank is broke whats left of your EHP will be chewed through.
If you have a 2k tank for example and they do 3k effective dps, they will chew through your buffer @ a rate of 1k dps. So if you have a 50k tank against their damage type it will take about 50 seconds for them to break your tank and pop you.
This is further divided into sustained and reinforced tank. Sustained tank is what you can tank with your current cap situation indefinitely. Cap boosters effect this number if its not maxed (IE: Cap Stable). reinforced tank is your max tank given unlimited cap.
When fitting ships you must look at dps both offensively and defensively. Unless you are buffer tanking in which case "normal" tank ability doesnt matter.
This is a simplified version. its a bit more complicated than this. But its the basics.
[Rattlesnake, I Make Angels Cry] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Explosion Dampening Field II Explosion Dampening Field II Explosion Dampening Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Large Shield Extender II Shield Recharger II Shield Recharger II
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger I
4816 DPS tank against angels( Using a 90EX/10KIN damage profile i think). That means that angels will have to do 4817 dps to break this tank.Given other factors such as misses and speed of target( me) they probably need above 7k raw dps to break it.
Quote: Why can't people simply say my booster/repper heals this per cycle or my damage is this per volley.
DPS is a median for comparing stats. It makes comparisons simple and easy. why complicate it?
AFAIK every i know that uses DPS uses it correctly. maybe you just hang out with some real noobish peeps?
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Intigo
No, really - this thread is stupid. The term is not overused, it is misused (as mentioned earlier) once in a while and regardless of that it's most certainly not thread-worthy.
/thread
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Daergaar
Caldari Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:44:00 -
[25]
Just a question, but do any automatic calculators (like EFT for example) include reload time into DPS calculations? My guess is they don't.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Daergaar Just a question, but do any automatic calculators (like EFT for example) include reload time into DPS calculations? My guess is they don't.
Only infidels reload. á
I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Intigo No, really - this thread is stupid. The term is not overused, it is misused (as mentioned earlier) once in a while and regardless of that it's most certainly not thread-worthy.
Thank you. And, OP, changing the title changes nothing.
Originally by: Daergaar Just a question, but do any automatic calculators (like EFT for example) include reload time into DPS calculations? My guess is they don't.
Keep guessing, kid, keep guessing.
(In EFT: File -> Preferences -> check "Include reload time in DPS" -> ???)
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Stick Cult
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Daergaar Just a question, but do any automatic calculators (like EFT for example) include reload time into DPS calculations? My guess is they don't.
reloading is for noobs, because amaar is pr0.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.08.30 20:10:00 -
[29]
If something lives long enough for you to have to reload... something is wrong =)
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.08.30 20:21:00 -
[30]
Some players don't realize what dps stands for. Perhaps they think it's damage per shot. In any case, some ships can get crazy high active tanks. My completely ordinary t2 fitted maelstrom has a 1500 dps active tank without any boosters/leadership/overheat. If you throw all that **** in, it tanks about 4-5k dps although only briefly. As for damage output, a typical BS does 1000 dps but they can run up to around 1500-1600 dps on something like a faction fitted vindicator.
With very expensive setups, the maelstrom/vargur and possibly some others can get some really outrageous tanks and still do the typical 1000 dps. A maelstrom with a Pith X-type XL shield booster and CN invulns is scary ****. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
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