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Seriosly, stop the projectile falloff nonsense.

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fkingfurious	Posted - 2010.08.27 11:25:00 - [511] The idea of a Vagabond ever killing a well piloted Curse is completely laughable. A Vaga will get a single cycle of its MWD off before the Curse caps it out. 3 medium neuts on a Curse will take a Vagas cap out in a single cycle. With only 10 seconds of mwd speed the Curse pilot (who will be mwding AWAY from Vaga) woulf have to be truly ******ed to let the Vaga in close, not that it will matter because your vaga will have no scram or web (not that it would have the cap to use them) to keep the Curse in place once it gets there. After 20 seconds the fight will have turned into a case of the Vaga sitting dead in the water being orbited at 20km by the Curse. A single Curse TD does such a good job crippling the Vagas guns that it can't hit the Curse at that range (0.7 + 11 with close range, 1.5 + 17 with Barrage). Mister Vaga pilot best pray that the Curse aint got 2 TD's fitted, cos if it does and has the smarts to fit a range and tracking script the Vaga wont be able to shoot the Curse or track its drones. Oh noes, dead Vaga.
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.08.27 11:27:00 - [512] DRONES
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.08.27 12:03:00 - [513] Originally by: McRoll Finally, especially frigate- and cruiser sized classes are the strong point of the Minmatar. That race is based on speed and hit n' run tactics and they apply in those classes the best. You need to include BC in that statement. Matari has the best line-up sub-BS by a mile and a half; Frigates, Destroyer, Cruisers and Battlecruisers (yes plural, Cyclone is pretty damn good for an old guy!) .. Problem is that the Hit'n'Run argument died a long time ago, they are better than all other races even when buffering and slugging it out .. that is what the projectile buff did. Twin neut plated cane has more EHP when going against a similarly fitted Harbinger, it has more speed, can run both neuts permanently and does roughly the same damage out to 4-5km .. not as if it matter since the Harbinger wont be shooting for very long. As for BS: The revamped Typhoon is probably the single best brawler around. Nothing comes close to twin neut AC or Torp Phoons in sheer damage (and yes I consider cap warfare damage). If you have ever been on the receiving end of a competently fitted/flown Typhoon you have probably been scratching your head for ages trying to devise a counter that doesn't involve Moar Dudes! or ECM (please let me know if you do find one because I am at a loss). Sum: Projectile buff made Minmatar ships the best at everything except large fleet/RR-Blobs. PS: When a ship needs you to either use faction or the same ship to counter it something is off.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.27 12:31:00 - [514] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Concept of gradual strength of the web (the closer your target - the stronger speed drop it experiences, like from 10% at 10 km up to 60% at 1-2km for t2 web) could also affect blasters positively, but it also impacts tons of other pvp situations - so i can't say it's definitely a good thing. It is a pretty good idea if you fly mostly frigs and ships that don't fight at point blank. For stuff that fights nearly exclusively at point blank it is the opposite. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2010.08.27 12:46:00 - [515] @ Hirana Yoshida A competently flown Harbinger won't die to a plated Cane. Firstly, you should try to use range to your advantage. Burn away and use Scorch. The Cane is faster but it will have received alreay a lot of damage once it catches up, the Harbinger not so much as the range on a plated Cane is "meh" gently spoken. Secondly, neuts can be countered because you should fly with a cap booster on a heavily cap depndant ship. Finally, there is the 50m& drone bay which allows you to either fit Hammerheads which also add quite some damage at range or 2 flights of Warriors and small ECM drones. The Typhoon is very good, granted, but there are enough other battleships which can mount neuts and deal damage. Also, the range of torps limits the fielding possibilities of the Phoon. And honestly I see no problem there as the other 2 Min battleships are pretty mediocre- shouldn't Minmatar be allowed to have a good battleship? Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.08.27 12:58:00 - [516] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 27/08/2010 13:01:27 Originally by: The Djego It is a pretty good idea if you fly mostly frigs and ships that don't fight at point blank. For stuff that fights nearly exclusively at point blank it is the opposite. Well, this change shouldn't come alone, but only with proposed sprint boost. This way only blaster ships are more likely to catch their target and web them with 100% strength. The higher speeds (and they will be higher at 2-10 km), the more significance has difference in speed between you and your target, the more significance have your speed and direction when you enter scram range. For example, nanocane in duel vs HAM drake with web will be able to get closer; deimos (in proper hands) should 'land' at point blank because of his immense speed advantage outside of scram range - webs and scram do not stop it instantly.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.27 13:07:00 - [517] Originally by: McRoll ... Lol, you havent met td cane yet, right?
McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2010.08.27 13:18:00 - [518] tracking disruptor? Harb can fit it too. What an argument, wow. What if your opponent fits ECM drones? What if hes got a falcon alt? What if, what if... way to argument there dude. I compared 2 standard fittings without ewar, just usual tank and gank. Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.08.27 13:21:00 - [519] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Problem is that the Hit'n'Run argument died a long time ago, they are better than all other races even when buffering and slugging it out .. that is what the projectile buff did. Twin neut plated cane has more EHP when going against a similarly fitted Harbinger, it has more speed, can run both neuts permanently and does roughly the same damage out to 4-5km .. not as if it matter since the Harbinger wont be shooting for very long. Projectile buff changed exactly what in this match up? Before it was "load Hail-get close-laugh at dead Harb while having 60% armour left". If anything, TE buff obsoleted plategank Hurricane, since its range is quite pathetic compared to shieldgank one and you're much better of flying Harb in gangs, for solo it's so-so, but both are crap. Frigs(unless you're talking about just T1) are fairly balanced, excepting Dramiel which should receive sledgehammer surgery as it was mentioned NOT ****ING ONCE in this thread. For Cruisers it's more of a general crappy lineups of T1 cruisers for all races, save Rupture and Vexor, pretty much. T2... well, if you think Vaga/Muninn are awesome, then you have other issues than game balance. And yet again, a lot of ships have their roles obsoleted and need a kind of rethink(Diemost, Sac, w/e).
Moose Burger	Posted - 2010.08.27 13:41:00 - [520] What if i blob you with 10 times more Drakes doesnt matter if you fit double neuts, triple cap boosters, quadruple balls or quantiple lazors. you are going to die. Projectiles are fine. As long as you overwhelm. As do hybrids are fine. As long as you overwhelm Stop complaining about your weapon system. Instead, Start using your brains and fight only favourable encounters.

Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.27 14:36:00 - [521] Originally by: McRoll ... Harbi has 4 mids, cane has 4 mids. Harbi uses cap to shoot guns, cane doesnt. Harbi is slower, cane dictates range. Td is pretty standard on armor canes, which are far from standard cane fits these days. Btw gl fitting td on harbi - you dont need that cap booster/web anyway. Falcon alt? Ecm drones can work, but - its chance based so they can work for both sides. And i dont feel that ecm600s are so much better than ecm300s in reality. They always seem to work for my target and never for me. Tbh few days ago i got jammed 3 times in row by ecm hornets of some lolfit arty rupture. Nerf ecm drones.
n0thing Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.27 14:52:00 - [522] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida PS: When a ship needs you to either use faction or the same ship to counter it something is off. That what most people here fail to understand. Current faction ships/matari <> gallente balance is even more broken then against other races, due to massive ingame combat changes taken place over last patches, and every race was tuned in order to meet the new standarts. Apart from Gallente. All it got was Moros drone-dmg nerf. ---
Lalita Prestoc	Posted - 2010.08.27 15:07:00 - [523] Originally by: n0thing Current faction ships/matari <> gallente I agree, some none gallente ships are better than gallente ships, some arn't.
Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.27 15:09:00 - [524] need to make this a WIDOT thread or something. 18 pages and won't stop. well played.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.08.27 15:41:00 - [525] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Projectile buff changed exactly what in this match up? Damage was increased and damage types were 'purified' which adds up to a rather large overall damage increase. Phased Plasma is just ridiculous now Originally by: Kaileen Starsong ... excepting Dramiel which should receive sledgehammer surgery as it was mentioned NOT **ING ONCE in this thread. It's been done to death everywhere else so no need in dragging it in. plenty of Dramiel bashing threads to choose from Originally by:** Kaileen Starsong For Cruisers it's more of a general crappy lineups of T1 cruisers for all races, save Rupture and Vexor, pretty much. T2... well, if you think Vaga/Muninn are awesome.. I think everyone with half a brain agrees that Amarr rule the T2 Cruiser niche with an iron fist although there are some above average hulls other than the Gold'n'Black (Scimitar, Rapier, Ishtar for instance). But when it comes to T1 cruisers there are none that are even in the same ballpark as the Rupture in performance .. even Vexor is horribly outgunned (assuming drones are slaughtered as they ought to). Originally by: Moose Burger What if i blob you with 10 times more Drakes.. Just checking to see you are trolling before I report your post; your take is if something can be defeated by blobbing it it is balanced? Hmmmmm...
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.08.27 16:02:00 - [526] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida But when it comes to T1 cruisers there are none that are even in the same ballpark as the Rupture in performance .. even Vexor is horribly outgunned (assuming drones are slaughtered as they ought to). That's not due to the Rupture being OP and needing a nerf, though(imo). It's the T1 cruiser that actually works like it should. Others have idiotic design issues and most are just quite... pathetic. Maller - like seriously? That ship has been outdated since 2004. Omen - oh hai, I can't fit anything, what should I do? Thorax - yes, let's have no range or no HP at all. Moa/Caracal... yeah, well. As for projectile changes, the exact Harb vs Hurri match up didn't really change much, proper Hurri used to slaughter Harb anyway. The damage purification was alright, TE changes I'm really not so sure of - granted, they did provide needed boost to arties, but for ACs they were somewhat over the top.
n0thing Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.27 16:21:00 - [527] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida I think everyone with half a brain agrees that Amarr rule the T2 Cruiser niche with an iron fist although there are some above average hulls other than the Gold'n'Black (Scimitar, Rapier, Ishtar for instance). But when it comes to T1 cruisers there are none that are even in the same ballpark as the Rupture in performance .. even Vexor is horribly outgunned (assuming drones are slaughtered as they ought to). Dont forget Stabber in addition to Rupture, resulting in Matar also dominating Tier 2 and 3 cruiser places. Stabber being a best T1 anti-support-support ship. Originally by: Indeterminacy need to make this a WIDOT thread or something. 18 pages and won't stop. well played. I can sign your shirt ---
Corelich	Posted - 2010.08.27 16:47:00 - [528] Originally by: n0thing Originally by: Hirana Yoshida PS: When a ship needs you to either use faction or the same ship to counter it something is off. That what most people here fail to understand. Nope, its not the missing comprehension skills, its just not true for Minmatar Ships. ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: n0thing As I know ACs can hit up to falloff + 2x optimal Some People dont know how little they know.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.27 16:52:00 - [529] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Damage was increased and damage types were 'purified' which adds up to a rather large overall damage increase. Phased Plasma is just ridiculous now Yeah, almost as ridiculous as Scorch and rage HAM/Fury HML/faction Torps. Quote: I think everyone with half a brain agrees that Amarr rule the T2 Cruiser niche with an iron fist although there are some above average hulls other than the Gold'n'Black (Scimitar, Rapier, Ishtar for instance). But when it comes to T1 cruisers there are none that are even in the same ballpark as the Rupture in performance .. even Vexor is horribly outgunned (assuming drones are slaughtered as they ought to). What you're complaining about is an artifact of hybrid balance, not projectile imbalance. The three traditional picks for "Best T1 Cruiser" were Vexor, Thorax, and Rupture - in no particular order. Now imagine that we nerf projectiles in some way. Well, blasters still what the **** suck so we boost blasters. Now all the best cruisers are Gallente, hands down. We MUST focus on fixing blasters before we go about ***ing for projectile nerfs. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2010.08.27 16:59:00 - [530] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: McRoll ... Harbi has 4 mids, cane has 4 mids. Harbi uses cap to shoot guns, cane doesnt. Harbi is slower, cane dictates range. Td is pretty standard on armor canes, which are far from standard cane fits these days. Btw gl fitting td on harbi - you dont need that cap booster/web anyway. Falcon alt? Ecm drones can work, but - its chance based so they can work for both sides. And i dont feel that ecm600s are so much better than ecm300s in reality. They always seem to work for my target and never for me. Tbh few days ago i got jammed 3 times in row by ecm hornets of some lolfit arty rupture. Nerf ecm drones. Why do you guys always seem to be trying to balance the ships in a 1v1? In a gang, Harbi's superior range with Pulses allows him to go from one target to the next doing max damage, and moving very little. Or better yet, keeping an alignment longer while pounding your foes. Seems to me like that is a better way to assure you can GTFO, compared to running around the battlefield like an idiot, and creating all sorts of traverse velocity for yourself along the way. Range is king in CR gang warfare. And that is why Blasters suck and Pulses rule, and AC's are acceptable. There is no doubt that in a 1v1 fight AC's are the best weapons, especially when placed on a fast ship, but that is a very small percentage of EvE. Where are you guys finding all of these Harbi versus Cane, and Rupture versus Thorax fights. Sounds more like arranged PvP with your buddies, which is hardly what the game should balanced around.

Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:18:00 - [531] Originally by: Beverly Sparks ... Im not trying to balance anything, i just pointed the guy i quoted is wrong. Also in solo/small gang warfare, range control is most important. And if ships that are fast and can control engagement also have serious dps at range... enjoy minnie fotm.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:37:00 - [532] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Im not trying to balance anything, i just pointed the guy i quoted is wrong. Also in solo/small gang warfare, range control is most important. And if ships that are fast and can control engagement also have serious dps at range... enjoy minnie fotm. Applied DPS is the most important thing in small gangs. You need to kill the bait and gtfo, not *** foot around and waste everyone's time. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Achuni	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:45:00 - [533] Personally I would fit Proteus's with a better tank like it was mean to do. This fit has 200,000 uniform ehps and as much as 567,000 ehps against kinetic lol (I really hope any caldari pilots get the hint and switch ammo on this.) This fit is pretty cheap too. [Proteus, Tanked Version] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Regenerative Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Warp Scrambler II Warp Disruptor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:46:00 - [534] No, most important thing it to keep yourself out of scram/web range, so you can disengage any time.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:48:00 - [535] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 No, most important thing it to keep yourself out of scram/web range, so you can disengage any time. The scram/web range of a destroyed ship is 0. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:51:00 - [536] You often engage destroyed ships when you pvp?
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.08.27 17:57:00 - [537] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 No, most important thing it to keep yourself out of scram/web range, so you can disengage any time. You run in such blobs that bait dying is guaranteered and only thing you should care of is staying out of tackle?
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.27 18:00:00 - [538] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 You often engage destroyed ships when you pvp? I often destroy ships when I PVP. As opposed to running from them. Or blobbing the ** out of them. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Achuni	Posted - 2010.08.27 18:04:00 - [539] I hate to say it but Gallente ships are not known for just "disengaging" when they fight, they are committing to that fight for its entirety and its your job as the pilot and the FC to know if you can make it or not. Whether knowing how long you'll have to jump through the gate (and log if your fleets getting ****d - aye gay ass tactic) or whatever it is, it's not the ships fault, its your fault. Thats why when ships like these are in play you need to have probers getting you close targets and etc. Gallente probably do needs some love, but till then understand its a race that requires great care and skill and take some pride in that other than whining.
deathkiller95	Posted - 2010.08.27 18:06:00 - [540] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 You often engage destroyed ships when you pvp? Or blobbing the **** out of them. Your killboard is calling you a liar.



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