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Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:26:00 -
[1]
Considering increased rate of protests and emorage spilled on these forums reaching culmination in last few weeks/days, and seeing how bad rumors picturing Eve as "utterly unplayable game" and your company as "bunch of incompetent liars" are quickly spread around by small, but certainly loud and unbelievable dedicated part of this community (hint: don't underestimate their influence because madness can cause way more damage that rational human beings could ever imagine), I think it's time for you to conduct serious large scale investigation in order to check what your playerbase REALLY thinks about current state of the game and your future plans, and also to pinpoint main issues which your paying customers find problematic or even gamebreaking.
Best and probably simplest way to do this is to create a questionnaire to pop up on client login screen, once per every active account - excluding trials of course. You should keep this inquiry live for at least one month because many people are not logging regularly, plus it's time of summer holidays. Obviously, since there are alot of players with multiple accounts giving them chance to vote for several times, results could not 100% accurately represent community as whole (ideally, one paying customer = one vote)... but that's the best we can get I guess.
Some might say that CSM is there to speak on behalf of community but we all know that vast majority of players are not participating in elections, not to mention that large alliances are usually mobilized to support their guys so in reality alot of 0.0 people voted not because they really liked what they've heard from particular CSM candidate but just because they were recommended to do so. So let's forget about CSM, shall we? Maybe it looked like a good idea but it turned out to be nothing else but one huge waste of time: allow each one of your players to directly tell you what he thinks, we don't need useless mediators.
I won't suggest you what questions to put there, or in what form because -hopefully- you know what must be asked, and how. I think this investigation is something you MUST launch as soon as possible. That way you will not only show us, your loyal playerbase, that you do care about our opinion and counter dangerous rumors and speculations about your flaghip game and you as a company... far the most important benefit would be getting the best possible feedback from community.
So just do it. Oh and publish the results afterwards, I am quite sure you wouldn't be ashamed.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:29:00 -
[2]
<3 polls ....
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:29:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap Sums up what we all know as the CSM by now
Fixed it for you. And also, CSM got quite a large list there already. The only think people have a problem with is CCP's defenition of SoonÖ
========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Kate McCann
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:31:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Kate McCann on 30/07/2010 11:31:37 CCP's "soon(tm)" is "We're not fixing any existing content for 18 months".
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
Some might say that CSM is there to speak on behalf of community but we all know that vast majority of players are not participating in elections,
If players can't be bothered to vote for CSM members, they won't bother with answering a few questions.
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darla voglio
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:45:00 -
[6]
Adding features provides playerbase growth, keeping the playerbase happy prevents it from shrinking.
Said that, even if present issues are fixed, tomorrow there will be someone else crying for different reasons.
CCP should not pay too much attention to players who threaten "consequences" if they don't get their "cookie": call it lag, fix of a feature, revamp or nerf of a weapon.
Those who believe the bucks they pay entitle them to act as a shareholder should consider letting their account expire: their attitude is of no help, it is a weight to the entire game-community.
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TriadSte
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:45:00 -
[7]
Edited by: TriadSte on 30/07/2010 11:46:22 The OP posts quite an interesting topic. I am in full agreement that this will give CCP the biggest and best heads up they can possibly achieve.
Although CCP will keep painting the game to there own particular picture It would be great if they did in fact take on the polls answers seriously.
Living in high sec for example, theres nothing really bad going on there that needs fixing, the low sec missions do in fact suck and the UBER amount of dumba$$ afterburners in loot needs changing but apart from that its fine.
Get these answers put to your customer base like....now? Its the customers that allow you to achieve your goals for your game.
CCP should never forget that fact.
+1 to OP
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:48:00 -
[8]
/me passes spoon to Xroxwhatever
I think you left this somewhere. Now give it a rest.
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Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
Some might say that CSM is there to speak on behalf of community but we all know that vast majority of players are not participating in elections,
If players can't be bothered to vote for CSM members, they won't bother with answering a few questions.
They will pay attention if you hit them right in the head with some huge, shiny, pompously designed window, popping up the second they launch the client (or enter character selection screen, whatever). Sure some would still decide to ignore it but I believe that most of the people genuinely interested for this game will find couple of minutes to answer the questions. Just keep inquiry form simple, clean and fast (no links to external web sites or something). Did I mention it should be shiny too?
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Riley Moore
Obscurus Research
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:52:00 -
[10]
They need to start listening to the CSM's. Have the CSM's conduct an open thread asking everyone's top 10 issues with the game. they the CSM could conduct a list and sent it to CCP. CCP should also do a survey to check how well they're perceived by their players base and what areas of their business they need to improve.
The last time I saw a game company take so much flak from it's most loyal player base was just before it did something stupid and cause the company sink in a brutal manner.
------- Obscuras Blueprints Store
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Wizzkidy
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Posted - 2010.07.30 11:57:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 30/07/2010 11:57:28 The last set of CSM minutes was a joke. Everything they produced in front of CCP was just swept under the carpit due to "other projects"
What is the point of the CSM if all CCP decide to do is carry on with what they where doing in the first place?
They might listen to the CSM but they dont ACT upon anything they have suggested.
I would expect a lot more progress 2 YEARS after the CSM was created. Great idea in theory to have this team of people, don't help much if CCP is unable/won't act upon the issues they raise.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.30 12:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
They will pay attention if you hit them right in the head with some huge, shiny, pompously designed window, popping up the second they launch the client (or enter character selection screen, whatever). Sure some would still decide to ignore it but I believe that most of the people genuinely interested for this game will find couple of minutes to answer the questions. Just keep inquiry form simple, clean and fast (no links to external web sites or something). Did I mention it should be shiny too?
The CSM elections are posted on the login screen in a huge graphical ad, all over the website, and the forums. It only takes about 3 seconds to vote. Click the link, then click the candidate to vote for. Yet thousands of people don't do it.
Hell, people don't even pay attention to the patch days then post on the forums wanting to know why they can't log in
The only way to get people to actively participate would be if they received something out of it. Then I'm not so sure that would work.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.07.30 12:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap ...and seeing how bad rumors picturing Eve as "utterly unplayable game" and your company as "bunch of incompetent liars" are quickly spread around by small, but certainly loud and unbelievable dedicated part of this community (hint: don't underestimate their influence because madness can cause way more damage that rational human beings could ever imagine),......
We'll see when the next Eve quarterly report for this quarter rolls around. Personally, the only reason I'm NOT unsubbing is because I think Eve will be more or less dead as a game by the time Second Life in Space Stations and Headshot-Online roll around in 18 months.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.30 12:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap ...and seeing how bad rumors picturing Eve as "utterly unplayable game" and your company as "bunch of incompetent liars" are quickly spread around by small, but certainly loud and unbelievable dedicated part of this community (hint: don't underestimate their influence because madness can cause way more damage that rational human beings could ever imagine),......
We'll see when the next Eve quarterly report for this quarter rolls around. Personally, the only reason I'm NOT unsubbing is because I think Eve will be more or less dead as a game by the time Second Life in Space Stations and Headshot-Online roll around in 18 months.
Your logic confuses me. Surely that's a reason to not renew your sub?
Unless your account is already paid up beyond your estimate of EVE's remaining lifespan ofc.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Foundation Vox
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Posted - 2010.07.30 12:14:00 -
[15]
One thing I agree with very strongly is the OP's view on the CSM. They were NOT a true representation of the EVE playerbase. They had an agenda that had nothing to do with the average EVE player. Believe it or not CCP knows exactly what it's playerbase wants. The have the data on all the different stuff that our characters do when we log in to play. The conclusion they reached (Incarna) is most likely what the majority of players would like to see added. If I look at it logically I just cannot reach any other conclusion. If they had looked at the user action data and seen that 100 fleet battles were failing on a daily basis I am pretty sure we would be hearing a different tune from CCP. My 2 ISK.
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Azzail
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Posted - 2010.07.30 12:21:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
Obviously, since there are alot of players with multiple accounts giving them chance to vote for several times, results could not 100% accurately represent community as whole (ideally, one paying customer = one vote)... but that's the best we can get I guess.
So let me get this straight I pay 12 times as much as someone with one account but my voice/opinion should be equal to someone who pays only a 12th of what I pay? Hmm that doesn't seem right..
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Shaalira D'arc
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Posted - 2010.07.30 12:36:00 -
[17]
If you want participation in the polls, you could always bribe people into taking it.
A token offer of 5,000 SP distributed in the same way as the downtime reimbursement would get most people to answer the questions.
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.30 12:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Azzail
So let me get this straight I pay 12 times as much as someone with one account but my voice/opinion should be equal to someone who pays only a 12th of what I pay? Hmm that doesn't seem right..
Uhm, actualy it does. You are one player. It's not about amount of money put in, it's about player oppinion.
========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.07.30 12:42:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Zartrader on 30/07/2010 12:46:14
Op, you have a good point. I don't regard the CSM as representative of my views in the slightest and we all know its mainly moaners who fill out surveys which gives a very skewed result. So what you propose may work.
I think it's about time CCP were cut some slack though, the whines are getting silly. CCP have made a rod for their own back by being a lot more open than other companies. Some forums posters seem to want to ruin that. Other companies (Blizz') were forced to close ranks and switch to marketspeek mode because of forum idiots and I hope CCP are not forced to do the same.
EDIT: Azzail, one person one vote is a basic principle of democracy as each person had ONE opinion not 12 or 100 on a given subject.. The rich and poor all have the same voice. Of course in the real world it does not work like that as the CSM proves
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Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
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Posted - 2010.07.30 13:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Breaker77 The CSM elections are posted on the login screen in a huge graphical ad, all over the website, and the forums. It only takes about 3 seconds to vote. Click the link, then click the candidate to vote for. Yet thousands of people don't do it.
It takes much more time and, should I say, effort to vote for CSM because you are supposed to actually learn about all them candidates and their agendas which are usually presented in long walls of text. That's, of course, if you're serious about that and don't want to give your vote to someone just because your CEO told you so. Player poll I am talking about communicates with players DIRECTLY and contain series of clean, simple and precise questions/optional answers and should be done pretty fast within game client.
Originally by: Ressiv You are one player. It's not about amount of money put in, it's about player oppinion.
Exactly. Still, people running multiple acconts can rest assured that they would get their multiple votes as well because I don't see how to prevent that.
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Prime FLux
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.30 13:52:00 -
[21]
I would say one vote per account is fair. See it like a shareholder, one account one share. We are customers, do you think a company pay equal attention to a customers whom buys one product as to a customers who buys 1000?
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.07.30 13:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Prime FLux I would say one vote per account is fair. See it like a shareholder, one account one share. We are customers, do you think a company pay equal attention to a customers whom buys one product as to a customers who buys 1000?
Thats kinda whats wrong with the world at the moment. At some point we started to value $ more then people. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru
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Posted - 2010.07.30 14:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Breaker77 The CSM elections are posted ... over the website. Click the link, then click the candidate to vote for. Yet thousands of people don't do it.
9 times out of 10, I can't be bothered to open a website at the time that I remember that there's a vote going on. Why should I open a website when I'm busy logging in for a fleet fight? Why should I open a website when I'm busy catching up on mail? etc
An in-game interface to vote would be handy. ---
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.07.30 14:05:00 -
[24]
CSM is the voice of the people who chose to be heard.
How can you expect a survey that pops up where the CSM Election notices were popped up, will have any more relevance than the CSM?
If you have bugs to report, use the bug reporting system. If you have a game mechanic that you'd like to see changed, post a suggestion in "Features and Ideas". If you have issues with the management of the game, talk to the CSM delegates.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Mr Mork
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Posted - 2010.07.30 14:07:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mr Mork on 30/07/2010 14:08:06 The idea that the csm effects anything is frightening.
I think the "what should be done" should come from the long list of petitions from people killed by bugged session change timers, aggression timers, unloadable systems, and crashed nodes. Throwing surveys and flyers at people does nothing to fix known problems its just more crap to implement.
CCP needs to actually work on the customer support thing not throw a bone to forum *****s.
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Bite me inc. SRS.
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Posted - 2010.07.30 14:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kate McCann Edited by: Kate McCann on 30/07/2010 11:31:37 CCP's "soon(tm)" is "We're not fixing any existing content for 18 months".
I believe this sums up nicely what we are all so upset about. You say we're a 'mad vocal minority full of rage', I say you are an empire dwelling carebear. Regardless of what we might find of eachother, in this SANDBOX game we should both be allowed to do what we enjoy.
Seeing as how large fleet fights are definatelly something CCP brags about and promotes we (the 'mad vocal minority') find it only fair they either adjust their advertising to properly be in-line with the actual game and it's developments OR they fix it so the game is more in-line with their advertising and general consensus of what this game 'should be'.
(@OP:) Your entire point is invalid.
/thread __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate
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Posted - 2010.07.30 14:24:00 -
[27]
A lot of people tend to assume the playerbase is one entity with one voice. Its not, its 100,000 players with 100,000 voices.
The best a poll can do is to make some kind of weird average out of this.
A lot of us don't even know specifically what we want in advance, we may know it when we see it but that may be completely different than what we think we want.
Feedback can probably act as good inspiration for game designers. Specifically when players mention what existing features they like or don't like. A semi-democratic body to govern game design or any kind of creation will turn out complete rubbish.
I usually refuse to answer questionaires, because no matter how they are made, by definition they always use the wrong questions. It must be because they assume that bodies of isolated individuals think the same way. I like conversation. Two people with different opinions will often come up with a 3rd solution that is better than what the individuals could have thought of themselves. In a questionaire those two individuals will remain isolated and stuck with their unpolished points of view.
In practice the only voice that can matter is the voice that cares.
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oolk
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Posted - 2010.07.30 15:42:00 -
[28]
Lag is NOT content.
Get real people.
That suck-up minute should get me a T2 bpo or a 40 runs bpc of some exotic ship.
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Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
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Posted - 2010.07.30 17:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mara Rinn CSM is the voice of the people who chose to be heard.
How can you expect a survey that pops up where the CSM Election notices were popped up, will have any more relevance than the CSM?
If you have bugs to report, use the bug reporting system. If you have a game mechanic that you'd like to see changed, post a suggestion in "Features and Ideas". If you have issues with the management of the game, talk to the CSM delegates.
All of that looks cool on paper but in reality it's not working very well - we can see that fact showing its ugly face so nicely in last few weeks. IMO voting for CSM is too time consuming, CSM itself and the way it operates is complicated and inefficient, integrity and background of elected CSM members is questionable to say at least, their real influence is pathetic (and that's only partially because of CCP!), and somewhere at the end of the line we have CCP becoming completely alienated from community because of slow or broken communication channels. Bug reports are just that - bug reports, they serve one purpose which has barely anything to do with my suggestion. Oh and "features and ideas" discussion... what, you're telling me that people are still posting there in hope that someone in CCP will actually do something about it? Give me a break. 99% of those ideas are either totally unrealistic or plain stupid anyway.
What I'd like to see is CCP showing more interest for average player's opinion, I'd prefer to see them constantly asking questions about this and that, testing our general attitude... rather than having occasional Fidel-style long speeches or burts of short replies on forums (which are, btw, in TERRIBLE condition).
So... more active, direct approach to every one of us done through regularly organized client-integrated public polls about old features, new features, various game mechanics, future plans and everything else related to this game would be of great benefit for both us and them.
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Smelly Bait
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Posted - 2010.07.30 17:12:00 -
[30]
As a student in my third year of marketing college, im willing to offer my service to CCP in setting up questions and calculating the results. Results can be calculated in SPSS or exell what ever CCP wants. Mail me when interested on my 89m sp char on the same account as this alt
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