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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Wizzkidy
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Posted - 2010.07.28 15:54:00 -
[91]
The other thing that annoyed me was the CSM minutes. Mostly all of the CSM suggestions where turned away by CCP because there too busy working on this new patch
This makes little sence to me, why allow a CSM to come and have a meeting if all your gonna do is note it down and carry on the way you already where?
The CSM is suppose to be giving you the players view and all you can do CCP is turn around and say "there is no time scale for this" "This cant be done" or "wait 18 months"
You can't even give the CSM a "yes we will fix this ASAP here are the resources that will work on it"
Whats the point of theCSM then please? I want to know.
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Demonbox
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Posted - 2010.07.28 16:04:00 -
[92]
Originally by: CCP Manifest
It's almost impossible to reproduce Tranquility in a test environment because of player behavior being so random while taking advantages of the freedom of movement and many game systems in EVE. That is all I was saying. So, our "Final Exam" for any design or code can't truly happen till it goes live. The developers try to do as much testing as possible before doing so and do have some mechanisms in place to test changes that simulate such a large environment--but it can never truly mirror the direction of use or frequency of use the players will engage the designs with on TQ.
yeh that's true, but 6 months have passed since the Dominion expansion, and some issues "caused" by that expansion have not yet found a solution. Now your (CCP's) declared plan is to spend more energies on new content/DUST/etc for the next 18 months,game is yours so you are of course free to choose whatever you want , BUT given this isn't a f2p game, no wonder a lot of us r "whining" about that. cya and btw thanks for postin Manifest..u'r one of the few answerin our posts
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Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.28 16:07:00 -
[93]
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: alittlebirdy
Originally by: CCP Manifest but as we've seen it's hard to make any predictable model for how things will work once they are forged in the furnace of the actual EVE population hammering at the systems and trying to break them to their advantage. Your provocatism has provoked!
See players you are the problem RIGHT FROM CCP. It aint CCP's fault it's US players. GOD stop trying to break the servers by fighting (and you know wanting to win) and just mine. That mercoxit is so pretty don't you just want to eat it all up! Haha and you might want to SHUT UP and stop trying to provoke your PAYING customers. Just an idea you know.
I'm certain I didn't say this.
In fact, I said this earlier in this thread. Our game design (open sandbox) means that players will naturally group together--whether for safety in numbers, the fact that they like eachother, a desire to inhabit a place that feels "populated", for economic purposes (Jita) or because they like to have fleet fights--even if you incentivize them not to on multiple game design levels. This is not a problem nor are players a problem. This is pilots doing what they should be doing in an open sandbox game. The burden is on us to deal with that phenomenon as best we can via technology, game design and software. Other games obviously get around this by limiting the amount of people in instances (WoW) or spawning another zone when the population gets too high (City of Heroes).
It's almost impossible to reproduce Tranquility in a test environment because of player behavior being so random while taking advantages of the freedom of movement and many game systems in EVE. That is all I was saying. So, our "Final Exam" for any design or code can't truly happen till it goes live. The developers try to do as much testing as possible before doing so and do have some mechanisms in place to test changes that simulate such a large environment--but it can never truly mirror the direction of use or frequency of use the players will engage the designs with on TQ.
Guess you guys dont know about the port mirror feature of your core switches? Heck, even 10Ge pipes can be dumped pretty easily. Get dumping traffic and get to work. Use the dataset gathered, implement the tools required to replay the traffic log.
Voila, replaying whole fleet battles made possible. Then make tweaks between and replay the battle again and see if issues occur.
EVE PIRATE BattleDB.com |
Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.28 17:28:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Camios on 28/07/2010 17:28:33 First, thanks Manifest for you detailed reply.
Quote:
I said game design for sandboxes are complicated because of the possible butterfly effect of undesirable consequences, not that we don't make plans to change because we're afraid of tipping scales in the wrong direction. We've added sov mechanics and changed them in the past, and there's no ban on doing so in the future. I just don't know of immediate plans to do so.
To attempt to answer your questions in honesty from what I understand as being on the fringes of the dev team.
[...]
As with every change of design, it takes slotted development time. As is read from numerous other threads of late, the near future isn't exactly full of "free development time". Development time isn't as easy as coming up with new designs, it requires a whole structure of programming and QA to followup afterwards. So while the ideas expressed in this thread for changing the mechanics may be sound, they do require serious vetting versus the code itself for technical feasibility, the actual coding and then QA and testing on Sisi. When you parse it out, something as major as sov changes SHOULD take a lot of development time to "tweak".
Well, while I think that many of the things that came with Dominion are good (Dominion fixed the Economy of 0.0), I see that game design missed some good possibilities about small gang warfare and about splitting forces on many solarsystems in sov warfare. I mean, since CCP approach to the problem has not been so effective, maybe a more "western movie" approach with some frequent revisitations and corrections (that were promised after Dominion) would give some benefit.
In the end, it's a game, and if a change in sov mechanics causes some shift in the balance power of 0.0, it's just good. For every change, there will always be someone complaining, but it does not matter. The only thing that matters is that people participate in sov related fleet battles and have fun.
Quote:
To further what I said above, our game designers probably have some ideas on how they'd like to shift things (I won't speak for them though), but the development time and evaluation period for those changes takes just that... time.
So, since it requires development time but the slots are not infinite, it's just a matter of prioritization. I perfectly understand that the priorities of the company for EVE are Incarna and other misterious features for the winter expansion, but your (maybe now not so much) loyal hardcore playerbase needs other things (I keep being provocative but the truth is not far from what I am writing).
Quote:
Hahahahhaa I barely would say I have game designer instincts, unless you include home-brewed pen and paper gamemastering or emailing Noah and Torfi at 4am once I have a "brilliant idea" for the inclusion of NPC caravans in the sov equation. I would guess the EVE game design team certainly has many of those things, but as we've seen it's hard to make any predictable model for how things will work once they are forged in the furnace of the actual EVE population hammering at the systems and trying to break them to their advantage.
There is just one thing I don't understand. In sov fights, EVE behaves like an RTS with good approximation. From a certain perspective, it's even simpler than an usual RTS because it does not involves economy management (during a fleet battle). So balancing eve sov warfare should be a task comparable to balancing a multiplayer RTS. I actually don't think that this vision is too far from reality. Maybe your game designer should play more RTSes? :-)
Quote:
once I have a "brilliant idea" for the inclusion of NPC caravans in the sov equation
Hey this sounds familiar to me..
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qRTA Over
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.28 17:46:00 -
[95]
End of EvE
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.28 17:58:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Camios on 28/07/2010 17:58:26 in before eve is dying
oh wait
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Crucifier
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.28 19:05:00 -
[97]
At what point in time did CCP start not giving a **** about the players. I remember this company beeing awesome.
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.28 21:12:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Crucifier At what point in time did CCP start not giving a **** about the players. I remember this company beeing awesome.
December, 2009 or thereabouts.
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Jebizael Hunter
Gallente Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.28 23:04:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Jebizael Hunter on 28/07/2010 23:06:24 Edited by: Jebizael Hunter on 28/07/2010 23:05:22 One idea might be to brute force the lag problem. (This is very similar to an earlier post in the thread, just a reiteration).
Spread inactive backup sovereignty structures for a system X over several nearby systems, including X itself. If system X starts to lag out, say that 'spatial distortions' are affecting system X. One of the backup sovereignty structures activates, while the original one deactivates. If the second structure lags out, another structure activates, and so on. Basically the secondary structures act as 'backup servers' which are turned online to deal with server load. Bringing more ships to one fight is good, up to a point. If you bring vastly more than your enemy and the node lags out, you've just trapped a sizable amount of your forces in a lagged out node. Thus you don't want to bring more than 500 or so to one system. You'll want to make sure you always have enough forces to at least contest any new structures which activate, so holding back some of your forces is the optimal strategy.
It's an ugly fix (reminds me of WoW battlegrounds :( ), but it may fix the problem. (This idea needs some mechanism for when systems unlag again of course).
Some addendums to the idea, which could be applied seperatly to the main idea;
Let players using a gate going to a lagged out system X 'skip through' to any system neighbouring X (so they don't have to enter the lagged out system). Let players in a lagged-out system X choose to enter a different neighbouring system (random spot) when they log back in (similar to the fix with Jita), so they can actually play the game.
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.28 23:14:00 -
[100]
I actually laughed out loud at work when I read that! Lag is now officially "spatial distortion!" That's a good one...
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Addrake
Minmatar The Six-Pack Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.28 23:34:00 -
[101]
Why does it feel like whenever the devs talk, they are smiling, smiling, noding, then I turn my back and I'm getting flicked off.
I've only played this game for 3'ish months but dear god, even I notice the lag. Trying to sell that item? Please wait 5 minutes while the database catches up. And this is without going anywhere near null-sec. I payed for my accounts to play internet spaceships, not walk around, not play a FPS (already own TF2 + CS sorry CCP.) If you don't get your act together as a company, come September I'm going to be oogling cat-lady arses in FF 14 while I drink my beer. Gotta love them Japanese am-i-rite-kk.
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Denidil
Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn
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Posted - 2010.07.29 04:35:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Addrake Why does it feel like whenever the devs talk, they are smiling, smiling, noding, then I turn my back and I'm getting flicked off.
because you're a self important ass with a persecution complex
grow the **** up
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Addrake
Minmatar The Six-Pack Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.29 05:56:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Denidil because you're a self important ass with a persecution complex
grow the **** up
UMAD?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2010.07.29 06:56:00 -
[104]
Originally by: xttz Breaking News: Heavy spatial distortion interrupts fight in C-J6MT
"C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the violent clashes between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after severe spatial distortions appeared on the battlefield."
I'm not sure if we should be impressed or dismayed at this. Game-breaking faults posted on the login page, spun into an advert for 'cool stuff happening in space'. If CCP are going to post this crap it should at least be honest:
"C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the potentially epic fleet fight between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after we failed to fix lag issues ongoing since 2 expansions ago. Hundreds of players logged off in disgust."
It is pretty easy.
Those news are all IN-GAME news. And in-game no lag exists. Lag exists only out of game for the PLAYER, the CHARACTER in game cannot experience lag. They can experience blackouts, strange space-time distortions, memory loss or whatever.
Since there was already some news about a big battle going on, the reader in New Eden would maybe want to read about the outcome of the battle - and what to write there?
The terms "lag", "player", "node crash" and so on just do not exist in game, these are out of game terms.
And since the IC news are all roleplay (RP) and can use only in-game terms, they must find some creative way to describe lag, disconnects etc. So they came up with this 'spatial distortion'.
How would you describe lag and node crashes from a pure in-game point of view? If you can do it better, make a suggestion. |
Dodgy Past
Amarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2010.07.29 12:54:00 -
[105]
Originally by: TheStarman
Originally by: CCP Manifest *Manifest being a bro*
See, its not the devs that we have the problem with, its your CEO/Board of Directors that I want to hit over the head with my prosthetic leg. I'd buy a few rounds for the devs.
Agreed
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Lubomir Penev
TTSP.x.X.x.RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:12:00 -
[106]
Originally by: CCP Manifest
In fact, I said this earlier in this thread. Our game design (open sandbox) means that players will naturally group together--whether for safety in numbers, the fact that they like eachother, a desire to inhabit a place that feels "populated", for economic purposes (Jita) or because they like to have fleet fights--even if you incentivize them not to on multiple game design levels.
Maybe. You still designed the sovereignty mechanics in such a way that the only way to topple sov is to mass the biggest possible number of people in the same system, when you could have well designed them so multiple objectives in multiple systems had to be hit at the same time to spread the load, so stop lying about that.
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.29 15:47:00 -
[107]
Right because CCP Manifest personally designed the entire sov system....grow the **** up.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
Average Jack
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Posted - 2010.07.29 15:49:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Average Jack on 29/07/2010 15:49:52
Originally by: Lubomir Penev Maybe. You still designed the sovereignty mechanics in such a way that the only way to topple sov is to mass the biggest possible number of people in the same system, when you could have well designed them so multiple objectives in multiple systems had to be hit at the same time to spread the load, so stop lying about that.
^this is one of the reasons for my outrage. I read about this suggestion many months before the release of the new Sov mechanics - even before the release of the new sov mechanics to SiSi. Did CCP listen? Did CCP learn from their previous experience (it's not like lag wasn't a massive problem before Dominion - it was just a bit less massive)?
No, they didn't.
And that's not what I'd call "being committed to excellence". Sounds more like "being full of crap" to me.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.07.29 17:12:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara on 29/07/2010 17:16:22
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Grath Telkin
There is a thread nearing 100 pages of people posting about NOT wanting WiS OR Dust until you fix the game, which is entirely being ignored by the Development teams. Why is this?
This is where you misunderstand the situation.
Dev's have managers. Those managers have managers.
Devs want the game to work as much as you or I do. But like any business if your a tech grunt and aren't give the tools or proper resources, if your scheduled and ordered to focus on other things... that as they say is that.
Yelling at the devs is yelling at the only people that actually sympathize with us. They want success as much as we do.
The people you should be yelling at are useless to yell at. Even IF they were to open the forums and read, they are going to hear what they want to hear and go on with how THEIR vision of CCP should be (cough*nathan*cough).
I've never seen a tech company crash and burn due to sole incompetence of their tech workers. It's always ALWAYS the upper management chasing the immediate returns brass ring and sacrificing long term stability all to gamble on impressing their investors. Period.
Some companies build a solid business, a market niche and are content with that and work to ever cement their niche. See: CCP circa +/-2004 Others go full ****** and chase waterfalls flushing years of work down the drain. See: CCP now?
QFT.
We are now dealing with management and likely investor-level challenges / decisions impacting a game that we have thoroughly enjoyed in the past and would dearly like to continue enjoy playing long into the future.
I sure hope that some of the better business schools are targeting CCP + EVE for case studies. Their published works will make for interesting reads, no doubt.
Edited for content.
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.07.29 17:14:00 -
[110]
They already did the same kind of stuff about the 6NJ massacre. It was a way worse news than this.
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Nardman
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Posted - 2010.07.29 17:18:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Sub Trader watch the dominion trailer - looks great
come to the real thing in eve amd spend 2 hours looking at a blank screen.
calling it spacial distortion is just insulting to my custom tbh.
why can't ccp be honest and say they dont have the server resources to supply large fights and then do something about it.
Dominion Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rQ9_3DckAQ
Dominion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxbuiUlU47I
I wish some how that the above video was a joke.. but any one who lives in 0.0 the only joke is on us.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.29 20:10:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Nardman Edited by: Nardman on 29/07/2010 17:18:35 Edited by: Nardman on 29/07/2010 17:18:07
Originally by: Sub Trader watch the dominion trailer - looks great
come to the real thing in eve amd spend 2 hours looking at a blank screen.
calling it spacial distortion is just insulting to my custom tbh.
why can't ccp be honest and say they dont have the server resources to supply large fights and then do something about it.
Dominion Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rQ9_3DckAQ
Dominion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxbuiUlU47I
I wish some how that the above video was a joke.. but any one who lives in 0.0 knows the only joke is on us.
If you actually count the ships in the real dominion trailer you will find the entire battle was around a 100~150 ships total. Apparently that is still a playable fight if you get ccp to reinforce the node so the trailer is not lying.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.30 04:01:00 -
[113]
Why do threads always die when I inject some logic into them?
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Nimbat
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Posted - 2010.07.31 03:16:00 -
[114]
It's not dead.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.31 05:55:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Nimbat It's not dead.
Two days since the last unique poast with any real content.
It's dead, Jim.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Darth Skorpius
352 Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.02 05:13:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 28/07/2010 01:01:49 The player base is quite frustrated ...
A year ago this News Story would have gotten a few "ha ha spatial distortions..."
Why? It was funny, and I laughed ... a little, because it isn't isolated, it is daily and persistent.
CCP ... the only reason we are angry is that we LOVE THIS GAME and want to play it...
I WANT INCARNA, and DUST is an AWESOME concept ... Microsoft Admitted Vista sucked, roll back Dominion.
Best, Apollo
i agree, except the last part of your final sentance. microsoft didnt roll back vista, they spent the time and resources to to do it from scratch and get it right the second time, which for dominion would be a mistake as the only real problem with it is the lag, which ccp have already stated they have a team of people who know what the hell they are doing working on it, we just need to have patience ____________________________________________
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Apollo Gabriel
Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.08.02 05:41:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Darth Skorpius
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 28/07/2010 01:01:49 The player base is quite frustrated ...
A year ago this News Story would have gotten a few "ha ha spatial distortions..."
Why? It was funny, and I laughed ... a little, because it isn't isolated, it is daily and persistent.
CCP ... the only reason we are angry is that we LOVE THIS GAME and want to play it...
I WANT INCARNA, and DUST is an AWESOME concept ... Microsoft Admitted Vista sucked, roll back Dominion.
Best, Apollo
i agree, except the last part of your final sentance. microsoft didnt roll back vista, they spent the time and resources to to do it from scratch and get it right the second time, which for dominion would be a mistake as the only real problem with it is the lag, which ccp have already stated they have a team of people who know what the hell they are doing working on it, we just need to have patience
You are right Microsoft didn't roll back Vista, but several Engineering firms did roll back to XP.
All analogies are flawed :)
TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. |
Limyla
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Posted - 2010.08.02 06:28:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Darth Skorpius
i agree, except the last part of your final sentance. microsoft didnt roll back vista, they spent the time and resources to to do it from scratch and get it right the second time, which for dominion would be a mistake as the only real problem with it is the lag, which ccp have already stated they have a team of people who know what the hell they are doing working on it, we just need to have patience
I must agree with this. If CCP have a team working on it then they are working on it. No amount of player *****ing and complaining and trolling and EMORAGE-FFFFUUUUUU-SEE-HOW-YOU-DO-WITH-OUT-MY-MONEY-RAGE-QUIT is going to make them work any faster. CCP are going to work on WiS, they are going to work on Dust. Get over it and stop trying to make them run the company the way you think it should be run.
Posting ideas and suggestions is one thing. But when players who have no clue Exactly How the coding of the game works start treating the DEVs like **** cause they cant pull a fix out there *** and apply it on the next downtime no matter what is already set to go in on that downtime really just need to take a overdose sized chill pill and think to them selves. "Think i could do it any better if i was in there shoes?"
/end forum rage.
just sick of seeing ppl treating devs like **** when they cant do anything about it...
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Barrechor
Gallente Method of Destruction The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.08.09 14:45:00 -
[119]
To be totally honest I'm surprised that a CCP dev hasnt come on here and posted "Were sorry but our logs dont show anything, what is this lag you speak of?".
I heard once that a guy tried to buy a dev a beer at fanfest and when he asked him what he wanted he replied "Im not sure, let me check my logs to see what I drank yesterday".
Dominion was an epic failiure on so many levels. Like someone said earlier, theyre just throwing more crap in our direction to try and keep us occupied (Like the PI crap) instead of sorting out core issues caused by another pointless change made in an earlier pointless patch.
Sort it before Jumpgate Evolution & SW:TOR arrive CCP or risk a serious mass exedous. Jason Marshall eat my baby! |
Teinyhr
Minmatar Nor'akho Matar
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Posted - 2010.08.09 15:50:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Teinyhr on 09/08/2010 15:50:50 Plenty of manchildren crying ITT.
Could you now please stop crying and stop taking CCP's valuable time not demanding devblogs every half hour? Because the more they write devblogs or a dev writes here, that's time taken out of their job as a dev, working on a solution. Also has been said time and time again - if you figure yourself so smart that there is a single line of code that would fix all lag problems, feel free to apply to CCP, I heard they're hiring.
Seriously, you've had plenty of blue/red posts over these issues already, how about finally letting them work?
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