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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.17 01:44:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/07/2010 01:08:07
Originally by: Virtuozzo I commend your enthusiasm, but do not expect too much, and always keep monitoring the pulse of events.
I sssssiiiiiigggghhhheeeeddddd when I read your post. I remember all those events. I don't know why I bother keeping up hope. But I do. 4 and a half years and I keep up hope.
TBH the biggest problem I see with it is that CCP Nozh started a ****ing threadnaught everytime he commented on game balance - attracting attention from thousands of people that either didn't know wtf they were talking about or were actively trying to snow the issue one way or another. As such, I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to bring up a topic a half dozen times under anoynmous alts and see if you can get a general feeling for how much of a problem something is.
Or hell - just directly let the community make the recommendations. I dunno. Maybe make the CSM collect/aggregate the suggestions into a single refined source. But if there's really no code changes, this is amazingly low hanging fruit that can be delivered in sub 1 developer day worth of work. Tomorrow morning you'll wake with the rocket fix live and a dev blog announcing it.
imagine.
-Liang
Ed: Also, its hard to respond to your DM if you don't follow me.
Id agree. I think CCP could tweak and attribute and that its then subject to review after say 2 months.
Perhaps Game Design really need to explain why it takes such a long time to introduce balance changes.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.19 08:34:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Cailais on 19/07/2010 08:34:07
Originally by: Omal Oma
In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.
Its constantly being pointed out - manpower numbers does not equal proficiency or efficiency.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.19 09:57:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ebisu Kami Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 09:28:36
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Omal Oma
In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.
Its constantly being pointed out - manpower numbers does not equal proficiency or efficiency.
C.
Yet 1 team > 0 teams. Yet 7 people > 0 people. Seriously, WTF?!
Would a team of infantry soldiers be any good flying a MiG21? Or a team of artists be useful in developing FW mechanics?
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.19 10:03:00 -
[4]
Originally by: PC l0adletter
Originally by: Cailais Edited by: Cailais on 19/07/2010 08:34:07
Originally by: Omal Oma
In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.
Its constantly being pointed out - manpower numbers does not equal proficiency or efficiency.
C.
Is there a strictly linear relationship? Obviously not.
But if there weren't any correlation, why would they take 200 of the devs who made Apocrypha and put them on to other games? Do you think that maybe they thought that vampires of xbox would develop faster than if they only put 50 on it?
Please don't be fatuous. Further, don't forget to include an apostrophe in the word "it's" when you mean "it is."
We can play my grammar beats your grammar all day if you like?
CCP want to make other titles. They're a gaming company - who make games, but right now they have just one title to show for it. Ok it's a good title but you know they probably want to expand a little. What do you expect, CCP to work on EVE and only EVE for all eternity?
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.19 15:56:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pherusa Plumosa
Originally by: Cailais
For the umpteenth time....
The team working on EVE Gate are Web Developers, WEB DEVELOPERS - (you know HTML code and all that stuff?) They would be about as useful working on fleet lag as an assembled group of Mongolian Yaks.
In short this team has no skill set to 'fix lag'. CCP Zulupark was making teh funnies he could just have easily written:
We have one team (at this point) assigned to cleaning the offices, and that wonęt change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated cleaning team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it.
CCP decided Spacebook > Game Fixes and hired their employees according to their priorities, payed by our subscription money.
Yup. And your subscription money pays for the game as it is right now. Not next month, or next year. It lets you log on now. You're not an 'investor' who is somehow 'entitled' to say what CCP should, or should not do with its finances.
You may not like the decisions CCP are making involving what they spend their finances developing but you can either put up - or quit.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.19 23:22:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Cailais on 19/07/2010 23:23:29
Originally by: CCP Explorer The backlog is constantly subject to re-prioritisation, mostly shortly before release planning but also during the release cycle.
If that's the case, (and I may be getting myself a bit confused here), then the CSM could influence that re-prioritisation at almost any stage - is that correct?
If it is the case then how is it the CSM came away with the impression that no 'fixes' could be deployed within the next 18 month (approx) time frame?
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.19 23:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: SIEGE RED Edited by: SIEGE RED on 19/07/2010 23:31:45
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: CCP Explorer The backlog is constantly subject to re-prioritisation, mostly shortly before release planning but also during the release cycle.
If that's the case, (and I may be getting myself a bit confused here), then the CSM could influence that re-prioritisation at almost any stage - is that correct?
If it is the case then how is it the CSM came away with the impression that no 'fixes' could be deployed within the next 18 month (approx) time frame?
C.
To answer the first question as per the CSM minutes, no, they cannot influence that. There is no agreement on it, no direct communications, no due process.
To answer question number two, have you actually read the minutes? :P They were told that, both in insight in planning, and in explanations on prioritisation.
Besides, as long as CCP does not track and classify in their systems what is a CSM flagged issue, defect or element, it could be possible they are doing stuff, but they don't communicate that to the CSM, or communicate about it. Anyhow, result is the same, like their CEO said "perception is reality" (while whoever linked that article, that was pretty interesting I must say, but he seems to like to say that a lot in interviews).
I have read the minutes, although any minutes are always subjective documents at best. As far as I can tell the backlog is not a FIFO queue, but within the backlog issues are subject to "re-prioritisation" which sounds to me that its treated on a almost 'ad hoc' basis.
I might be being unfair to the processes used here, but I suspect that the backlog issues are 're-prioritised' downwards subject to the pressure of "new ideas". As an example Faction Warfare II is squashed back down the list for Incarna.
The sad thing about this if true is that these issues may never get looked at (bounty hunting mechanism for example) because they do not fall into the "new ideas" category and are always subject to this external pressure.
I can only assume this external pressure comes from either senior management or a collective stakeholder process, for example a Bounty Hunting Fix does not appeal to either Marketing or the Art Department. Incarna appeals to both - Incarna goes in, "Bounty Hunting Fix" does not.
Does this sound approximate to other software development?
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.19 23:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/07/2010 23:51:33
Originally by: Cailais Does this sound approximate to other software development?
Yes.
-Liang
Ed: I tried to make this point in my question btw.. I may have failed.
Heh, cool. Didn't take long to work that process out .
Slightly different to an applied project management approach, but then I guess you're constantly iterating with software - unlike say building a block of flats which is quite obviously at a 'finished state' at some point. Not very customer focused though....
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 00:43:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Cailais on 20/07/2010 00:44:21
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Cailais I have read the minutes, although any minutes are always subjective documents at best.
The Minutes went through a review and revision cycle that involved both CSM and CCP and provided ample opportunity to address any issues. Both signed off on the final version which was published.
I know -but that doesn't mean they aren't interpreted subjectively. I'm sure you've also experience plenty of meetings where both parties happily wander off both oblivious to the fact that they were actually not in agreement with one another on a given issue? In some cases minutes can actually reinforce that message.
For example the CSM minutes:
"The CSM expressed concerns about a potential communications bottleneck with CCP between Summits".
Now you read that as an issue you expect CCP to be addressing correct? I read it as you raising an issue...and thats it. There's no action point or agreement from CCP to that effect.
Its semantics really but minutes aren't binding documents theyre just a guide for the next meeting.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 11:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: CCP Explorer Rockets - by design, fw timers - defect, Tier1/Tier2 - by design, AFs "missing a bonus" - good question, don't know, it depends on what bonus it is "missing" and why. Exploit - defect.
It took you 36 pages to say that Rockets will not get fixed for the next two years?
I appreciate your candor in describing the technical methodologies at CCP, but honestly, even though I'm a technical person myself I do not care. To me what this whole thread boils down to is a technical way of distracting the players from the fact that you will not change anything.
Makes me terribly sad. If any of your competitors were to read this thread they would see a golden opportunity to make a competitor to Eve. It might even get you off your behinds to pay more attention to your loyal customers.
No one has said rockets won't get fixed for two years. Incarna is on its way, that doesn't mean we'll stop developing flying in space; we're still iterating on planetary interaction, we're still making PVE content and we're going to bring you Invasion. Rockets are part of the flying in space experience and as long as we're developing that, you could get the rocket change.
What is "Invasion" about? Is this just the name of the next expansion?
For years we've suffered from "soon(tm)" for all manner of issues many of which the CSM brought to Iceland and were told (pretty much unequivocally judging by the minutes) that none of them would be addressed.
We know very little about Incarna, a few screen shots and something about opening a bar - and much of that information is quite old. Its hard to be enthusiastic about something so vague.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 12:24:00 -
[11]
"You're reading too much into it. I don't think we should, or will, ever stop developing flying in space, it's the core part of our gameplay". - CCP Soundwave
"I asked straight out in the Summit during one particularly frustrating moment, "You can't commit to doing even one single small fix out of all of the issues we've submitted? As a show of goodwill, to demonstrate that CSM can make a difference and to aid in our credibility in that regard?"
The answer was no. Said with nods of sympathy and understanding at our frustration, but still no". - Mynxee CSM
These comments are contradictory. If "flying in space" is core gameplay why are the CSMs issues (which are core gameplay) rejected?
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 13:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Virtuozzo
Originally by: Morphisat
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Sannye Explorer just spent roughly 36 pages on why the dev's cant really fix anything.
Now, Soundwave said "while we're still developing flying in space".... note the still ?
That didnt excactly bring comfort!
You're reading too much into it. I don't think we should, or will, ever stop developing flying in space, it's the core part of our gameplay.
This is the core problem of this thread. The community / CSM is under the impression that for at least 18 months, Eve Spaceship development is pretty much halted and is upset about that. But you say we're 'reading too much into it'.
Well it's getting rather confusing now .
Well, with all the confusion, and the divide in perspectives visible, it is probably a good thing that CCP have a meeting room open at GAMESCOM in Germany in August, and are open to organising meetings.
"...the meeting room will seat eight people in total with standing room for approximately four more".
Ahhhh, so that's what they mean by SCRUM....
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 13:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jason1138 Edited by: Jason1138 on 20/07/2010 13:22:14 oh good, a meeting
because the CSM meetings accomplished so much
i think what we actually need is for something to happen. a fix, any kind of fix, to happen. a change in attitude, to happen. not more talking or more BS about the mode of holistic collaboration that will move us forward or any of that
some action
I think we probably need to schedule a meeting to discuss this proposal about action.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 14:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Consortium Agent CCP Zulu - you need to dumb it down a little for the masses my friend. I get it as a fellow developer, but most do not, apparently, reading these comments.
Originally by: CCP Zulu Actually one of the teams is spending one and a half releases on Incarna, the other about three releases.
In other words, they are putting a massive effort into the Winter 2010 expansion which will likely include things like the ability to choose full body avatars using some basic UI and probably the ability to walk around your own ship's quarters... maybe, with 70 developers, even a bit of WIS (Walking In Stations).
No need to dumb down, we understand perfectly well that CCP are pushing Incarna. The complaint is that they are not pushing the issues raised by the CSM which makes the CSM largely irrelevant as a process.
Those issues (FW, Null Sec Soc, rockets, bounty hunting, AFs, lag) etc etc etc have been long standing and for many of them CCP have said they would be addressed "soon(tm)".
A lot of people are miffed that "soon(tm)" is 18 months away.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 14:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Monkey Saturday Edited by: Monkey Saturday on 20/07/2010 14:51:13
Originally by: Consortium Agent Incarna IS Eve, by the way. As with many aspects of Eve, it's not more space fighting stuff, it's yet another realm within eve just like PI, just like manufacturing or research, just like missions, exploration (wormholes) and half a dozen other aspects of Eve that aren't 'shoot him in the face'.
Sorry to snip out most of your post. It was well written, but this is really the only point I wanted to discuss.
You may have a point when you say Incarna is eve and I may be wrong when I say it is a separate game. At this point I really don't know enough about how it will be deployed.
In that case I have a question for the appropriate CCP dev (explorer prolly).
Will Incarna run from the same client as Eve(the spaceship part) or will it be a separate client with the same login details that just pulls the relevant data from TQ?
*if this question has been answered in a dev blog I humbly apologize. I looked but did not find and it is my ignorant fault not anyone elses.*
It seems to me that it is going to be a bit more graphics-intensive than the current eve client, but tbh I really don't have any expertise in this field.
So please enlighten me! If both "games" run from the same client (be it the current eve client or some new uber-client) then I concede the point that incarna is eve is incarna etc...
If not, what is incarna then?
Would it matter if it were two different clients? Assuming you didnt notice the transition (e.g log out of eve, log on to incarna) which appears the case its really makes little difference.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 15:20:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Monkey Saturday
Originally by: Cailais
Would it matter if it were two different clients? Assuming you didnt notice the transition (e.g log out of eve, log on to incarna) which appears the case its really makes little difference.
C.
Have you tried logging out of one account to log into another? Doesn't it still close the client for you and just automatically reopen it so you can log another account in? That annoys me but at least it is still to use the same game features.
If you have to do that to play an entirely different aspect to the same game it seems...wrong to me.
Just to me mind you. You don't see it as an issue and maybe in the long run it is just about semantics but I would appreciate a dev response saying "Leaving your ship to wis will be seamless without the need to log out of the client and log into another one."
THAT would tell me that incarna is eve and they're still working on eve.
I'm grasping at straws here
From the video footage at the last Fanfest it looked relatively seemless. For example if you were in a station and wanted to undock your avatar moved to the nearest 'airlock' and then you were in the normal docked station environment. So from what we know yes its the same 'client' in that sense.
What the underlying code is doing is beyond my meagre knowledge.
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 15:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jack Dant Edited by: Jack Dant on 20/07/2010 15:19:54 It's significant to see how, while Soundwave acts all evasive here about how we could get some changes to rockets but refuses to commit, Chronotis posts to the rocket thread explaining how they are working on them over the summer and we are likely to see a devblog/sisi test around September.
If that doesn't show a total lack of communication at CCP, I don't know what does.
I dont think he's being evasive, its just not his subject area. I think the narrow specialised focus of CCPs development team hamstrings them in this regard.
The Programmers cant comment on anything 'game design' related because its not their field. The Game Designers cant comment because Marketing haven't signed off on it. Marketing wont give approval because the Programmers haven't said if it can actually be done.
What's really odd is that the CSM were apparently told that nothing could be done - when according to Chronotis it is being worked upon.
My overall impression is that the developers are like rabbits in headlights - terrified of promising something that they aren't responsible for and cant deliver. More worrying is if this is due to a atmosphere and ethos actually inside CCP which implies its not such a fun company to work for afterall....
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 15:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Jack Dant Edited by: Jack Dant on 20/07/2010 15:19:54 It's significant to see how, while Soundwave acts all evasive here about how we could get some changes to rockets but refuses to commit, Chronotis posts to the rocket thread explaining how they are working on them over the summer and we are likely to see a devblog/sisi test around September.
If that doesn't show a total lack of communication at CCP, I don't know what does.
I dont think he's being evasive, its just not his subject area. I think the narrow specialised focus of CCPs development team hamstrings them in this regard.
The Programmers cant comment on anything 'game design' related because its not their field. The Game Designers cant comment because Marketing haven't signed off on it. Marketing wont give approval because the Programmers haven't said if it can actually be done.
What's really odd is that the CSM were apparently told that nothing could be done - when according to Chronotis it is being worked upon.
My overall impression is that the developers are like rabbits in headlights - terrified of promising something that they aren't responsible for and cant deliver. More worrying is if this is due to a atmosphere and ethos actually inside CCP which implies its not such a fun company to work for afterall....
C.
This. I had a similar "rabbit in the headlights" experience working for a software company for 5-6 years. Wasnt fun. And I only had 40-50 clients, not 80K+.
It was exacerbated by the executive staff, which *would* make promises, and/or had a specific direction they wanted to go in which trumped all of the direct feedback/requests were getting from our user base. I suspect the same thing is happening here.
CCP Leadership wants the "cutting edge - ground breaking" brass ring for CCP in order to gain a larger player base - by implementing Incarna and marrying it to PI and Dust. Therefore the Development Managers have their mandate dictated to them from the top, and thus cant assign resources to resolve these issues.
Agreed. I think this is exactly what has occured with Incarna and DUST being the 'ground breaking' from the top.
And it is ground breaking and seeking a larger player base makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately it also means that the CSM is irrelevant if all the resources have been applied. What stings even more (and I imagine even more so for the CSM members) was that these resources appear to have been applied just before they arrived in Iceland.
Was that deliberate? Hard to say. We know from previous Dev comments that the CSM process is not universally popular within CCP; that might be a view held by the executive. I think there's a telling remark in the minutes:
"There was a minor discussion on whether CSM would evolve to focus on in-game politicsłas in, an evolution toward political parties, instead of just on the game itself. It was not considered a likely development".
Did this suggestion come from CCP, or from the CSM? Was that CCPs hope that the CSM would be an 'in game' movement?? Or was it a suggestion from a sympathetic CCPer who knew the writing was on the wall for the CSM and hope to divert its energies elsewhere?
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 20:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Jason1138 he loves the word "could" btw, so its hard to pin any of this down. I seriously doubt there would have been a mob demanding more iteration on eve gate or PI over FW or rockets or cosmos though, if CCP had allocated those resources to fixing old problems instead of dumping new, and essentially worthless at this time, content into the game
I would personally be WHAT THE **** RAGING if they weren't going to iterate over PI. My POS costs are determined by PI and PI is currently a pile of **** and a bajillion clickfest. POS costs are skyrocketing because PI sucks the big one.
-Liang
Its making me a nice little pile of ISK though - so its not ALL bad!
C.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.20 22:09:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Cailais on 20/07/2010 22:12:25
Originally by: CCP Explorer The design is of course subject to review based on how much work is involved, based on if and when Game Design can address the issue, based on what they think of the issue and based on player feedback. But I can't speak on GD's behalf. (*) There may be an opportunity in the next years to address the issue but I know that GD has a long list and I don't know where this issue in their list.
Can you ask them? And then ask them to tell us?
C.
Edit:
Actually nvm because here's the answer...
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Explorer is being too pedantic there for how we classify things from their engineering standpoint. The analogy would be that if design called for the accelerator pedal to be on the roof of the car instead the floor, the engineers would go away and do that. Now when a customer comes along as says this is silly, they respond with "this is how it was designed."
There is indeed a fault in the design/product, however the implementation is 'as designed' and thus the design must change (correctly, the precise balancing of attributes which game design does) to fix it. That has not been the cause of the delays however. It was more down to higher priority design tasks sitting above it in queue as I stated in an earlier reply.
Rockets/Missiles are being worked on over the summer (most of us are away on vacation currently as we all take it at the same time to help project planning) and you should see a proper blog discussing the initial changes when we are ready for public testing september onwards typically.
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Cailais
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Posted - 2010.07.28 13:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cindjin Edited by: Cindjin on 28/07/2010 13:33:02 I am very NEW to EVE.... not to PC gaming. My life took some curves over the past several years and I have not been playing any games until recently. I am now 40. I want a mature gaming experience. I no longer want to play FPS's and was looking for a deep, interactive Sci-Fi game and found EVE. I was hooked instantly. The level of integrity of this game is truly amazing. I am quite saddened by this Devblog and the responses from the loyal players. Luckily, I only paid for my first 3 months and not the full year like I originally intended.
EDIT: Does anyone know if the new Dust514/EVE combo will be run on the same server? I didn't find that info in the DevBlog
DUST 514 - No, its a console XBOX game, although previous Dev comments suggest it will 'link' to EVE Online.
Incarna - Yes. Rather than spin you ship in a station you can get out and go shopping.
C.
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