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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:23:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Heh, yeah... first thing I did when I got up was check this thread. :P What did you think of the method for calculating overheat effects? I thought it was interesting that a 2 MAR/2 EANM/DC setup myrm was able to (theoretically.........) take a Drake. In reality 6 seconds isn't much of a margin when you're sporting an unrealistic fit (2/2/1) and are more susceptible to damage reduction (falloff, tracking).
It makes me wonder if even taking the time to pop the Hobgoblin II would make it literally impossible for them to kill you before they died? But then most tanky Myrms either sport Tri-hards or triple EANMs... and the Myrm can throw some Exile on top of it. Which takes us back to the point where "yeah, a myrm that can flat tank the Drake will kill it". But 2 Drakes vs 2 Myrms and the Drakes win...... again. :-/
Blah.
I was actually going to note the issues the ACs would be having at 15~km, but then I saw the scram and remembered I was the only pilot that dislikes face hugging when I'm flying solo :\
I did like how you did overheating (Although the instant I press overheat my MWD tends to explode, leaving a giant gaping hole in my engines...), and honestly, the entire scenario somewhat surprised me. I assumed the drake would win outright, but I suppose not. Not that those perfect 1v1 0km warp in fights are realistic anyway (phew).
A more realistic scenario would be local filling up and one of the pilots going "fu" in local when 15 BS land on his BC. The entire concept of a Myrm beating a drake is just as likely as a passive tanked drake beating a real PvP drake. Which it would, if the PvP drake never notices that he's not being scrammed >>
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Yeah, the NH is the most egregious example of this, but its common with all the command ships. Tier 2 BCs didn't obsolete command ships, but they definitely deliver similar results for a much better price. Some simple boosts would make most of the problems go away with command ships (compared to Tier 2 BCs) and would then clear the way for Tier 1s to be boosted to Tier 2 levels - it sucks that blaster pilots [Ferox/Brutix] take a backseat to Drone/Missile pilots [Myrm/Drake], for example.
-Liang
I'm all for boosts for both ship types. I've never flown a CS simply because I'm aware of how subpar they are for the price (and being a only-caldari pilot that rats for a few hours to afford his drakes, I'm not ratting for ten times as long to fly a ship 1.05x better). I'd love to start seeing more tier 1 BC hulls flying around. I think the Brutix is the only one I've seen since I re-subbed last month.
I don't even remember the name of the minmatar tier 1 BC.
All that being said, please don't nerf my Drake, until you at least make my Cerb or Nighthawk somewhat viable :\
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:25:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
Its interesting how the dim witted collapse in the face of a well constructed argument.
Your argument is not well constructed. The Drake is "overpowered" only in the sense that it is the best close range brawler BC. It's hardly the only BC worth flying, and the "proof" you've offered up about its frequency of use is rather heavily biased towards mission running. Notably, the game isn't really balanced around mission running.
And even disregarding all of that, nerfing all the tier 2 BCs wouldn't fix the glaring problems with commandships, since BCs are hardly their only competition. The argument has long been "Why would you fly an Astarte when you can fly a Mega?" Now it's "Why would you fly an Astarte when you can fly a Proteus". So now to have your CS5 be "useful" (in your eyes) we now not only have to nerf the "easy to get into" strategic cruisers but also Tier 2 BC's and battleships to boot.
No, fixing command ships is a much easier task. Adding/moving a slot and adding some fittings would go a long ways to making them more useful... but fleet commands might just require some more thinking. Either they're the "sit at a POS and serve 7 gang mods" type, the "roam around with fast nano gangs" type (better done with a T3), or they're useless. And the Eos sucks all around if for no other reason than its gang bonuses are less than useful.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:31:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
Originally by: Meeko Atari
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
...
You are incompetent and clueles - or troll. Or both.
In 100% agreement
Glad to see you are capable of a logical and well thought out discussion.
Its interesting how the dim witted collapse in the face of a well constructed argument.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is not constructive, nothing me or anyone else on this forum is going to convince you of anything.
You have made up your mind that a nerf is the only way to to fix you your personal issue with this ship class.
Its your opinion and your welcome to it.
The Tier 2 BC class has been regarded as the most balanced ship class.
And just to say it again because it seems you missed it the first time.
Command Ships are not a T2 Battle cruiser replacement.
They have a designated role to provide fleet bonuses to the fleet.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:39:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
You agree that CS's are under powered compared to Tier 2 BC's - therefore the opposite must also be true, that Tier 2 BC's are over powered compared to CS's. If CS's are supposed to be the Tech 2 equivalent to the BC, then it is true that they should be more powerful and useful than Tier 2 BC's - therefore Tier 2 BC's are over powered.
There is a huge difference between a ship being underpowered and a ship being overpowered.
What you advocate is to basically make BC cost 10 times more (by forcing players to pay CS prices for what BC do now) by nerfing the tier 2 BC into tier 1 BC uselessness.
Do you know why people like BCs so much? Because they are:
Fun
Cost effective while being relatively cheap
Not skill intensive to get into nor even pilot successfully
Easy stepping stone for new players for both PvE and PvP
Actually useful in real gangs
Do you know why the Rifter is so largely popular and successful? Because it has the same overall (above) qualities of the battlecruisers. That doesn't mean you should nerf the Rifter so "other frigates can be just as useful by comparison". There's a reason no one really advocates any other frigate so heavily.
To be quite honest, the BC are easily the most well designed ships CCP have produced. You'd be a total idiot to destroy that. What they should do is strive to make all ship classes as well designed and balanced. I'd love to fly a Cerb and not be lol'd at.
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Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:42:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Cosmic Rainbow on 07/07/2010 20:44:06
[/quote=Meeko Atari]
Arguing for the sake of arguing is not constructive, nothing me or anyone else on this forum is going to convince you of anything.
You have made up your mind that a nerf is the only way to to fix you your personal issue with this ship class.
Its your opinion and your welcome to it.
The Tier 2 BC class has been regarded as the most balanced ship class.
And just to say it again because it seems you missed it the first time.
Command Ships are not a T2 Battle cruiser replacement.
They have a designated role to provide fleet bonuses to the fleet.
Hmm so let me see - they are Tech 2? Yes.
Are they based on the battlecruiser hull? Yes.
Do they require the battlecruiser skill to V in order to train them? Yes.
Do they provide fleet bonus's? Yes. So do Battle cruisers.
Are there two varieties? Yes - the field command and the fleet command. Fleet command. Fleet is specifically designed to boost. Field is specifically designed for combat. And I quote, directly from the Sleipnir description:
"Field command ships are geared more towards out-and-out combat than their fleet command counterparts, though both ships can hold their own in battle. "
So I ask again - which Command Ship do you fly?
edit: Quote fail
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:46:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
So I ask again - which Command Ship do you fly?
Sleipnir, Claymore, Vulture, Nighthawk, Damnation, Absolution, Astarte, Eos. ;-)
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:54:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Cosmic Rainbow on 07/07/2010 20:55:38
Some good points Atsuko and I dont entirely disagree with you. In fact your bang on with a number of things, but you need to take the analysis one step further.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
There is a huge difference between a ship being underpowered and a ship being overpowered.
Not when you do comparisons between ship classes, espcially in a logical progression of the same ship class. ie: Its generally accepted that a T1 cruiser shouldnt be more powerful than a T2 cruiser.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
What you advocate is to basically make BC cost 10 times more (by forcing players to pay CS prices for what BC do now) by nerfing the tier 2 BC into tier 1 BC uselessness.
Do you know why people like BCs so much? Because they are:
Fun
Cost effective while being relatively cheap
Not skill intensive to get into nor even pilot successfully
Easy stepping stone for new players for both PvE and PvP
Actually useful in real gangs
You are absolutely correct in this. I made a point above in the many pages that this is specifically why CCP chose to make Tier 2 BC's more powerful than Tier 1 BC's, and generally made them more OP than the tech 2 variety of the Tier 1 BC's. They saw that there was an issue in getting new players involved, making them feel like they were contributing to combat and they could blow sh*t up. This in itself should tell you that its likely Tier 2 BC's are OP. Why? Because they made them powerful, fun to fly, engaging. Why? Because they could blow sh*t up!!
Everyone wants to have something that can compete with the multi-million SP players out there. Of course this is obvious. However, when they put the Tier 2 BC's in to make it fun for all of the new players, they forgot to fix the other classes to make them on par. But the problem with that is, Tier 2 BC's wouldnt be so fun anymore if they made everything else on par would it? You might have to invest in training time, be patient, build your skills etc.
What they have done is, as I said before, an inintended slap in the face to the rest of us who have millions of sp invested in ship classes that we would like to have some advantage with because we invested the time and the isk. Lastly, the rest of the newer player base is going to get there soon too, and then you're going to be dissapointed, just like I was. Therefore, think of it as a way to curb your enthusiasm at an early stage so you dont hit such a big dissapointment wall later.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Do you know why the Rifter is so largely popular and successful? Because it has the same overall (above) qualities of the battlecruisers. That doesn't mean you should nerf the Rifter so "other frigates can be just as useful by comparison". There's a reason no one really advocates any other frigate so heavily.
You're a little off track here. If the Rifter was more powerful than the Tech 2 equivalent, I think it would be more of an issue. With that being said, I stated above that I think AF's should be fixed BEFORE CS's. As well as Destroyers btw.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
To be quite honest, the BC are easily the most well designed ships CCP have produced. You'd be a total idiot to destroy that. What they should do is strive to make all ship classes as well designed and balanced. I'd love to fly a Cerb and not be lol'd at.
You think that because you are a newer player. You want to mix it up, get in the game. You dont want to sit on the sideline or have a disadvantage vs a vet player, its understandable. Balance however, isnt always about giving one set of players an advantage over others, its about being fair. Tech 2 varities of ships should have more advantages than their tech 1 counterpart. Its something we've accepted in the game. Tier 2 BC's vs CS's break this rule. And they have a high SP cost and isk cost, is that fair to those players that have invested in CS's to have the carpet yanked out f
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.07 20:56:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
You think that because you are a newer player. You want to mix it up, get in the game. You dont want to sit on the sideline or have a disadvantage vs a vet player, its understandable. Balance however, isnt always about giving one set of players an advantage over others, its about being fair. Tech 2 varities of ships should have more advantages than their tech 1 counterpart. Its something we've accepted in the game. Tier 2 BC's vs CS's break this rule. And they have a high SP cost and isk cost, is that fair to those players that have invested in CS's to have the carpet yanked out f
I've been sparring with Atsuko on the forums for probably 4 years...
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.07 21:00:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 07/07/2010 21:02:14
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
You think that because you are a newer player. You want to mix it up, get in the game. You dont want to si blah blah blah
I have 40m SP all pumped into sub-capital caldari ships, with an alt that has 40m in all Gal sub-cap ships. Ironically, the Drake is my least skilled ship type (I don't even have BC 5 tbh). The reason I fly a drake over say, any other Caldari ship, is because it quite frankly outshines all other Caldari ships.
BUT ATSUKO THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN. THE BC ARE TOO POWERFUL.
No. It outshines all other Caldari ships because my ships are terrible. There isn't a single ship type that I can fly that isn't totally outclassed by other race (in PvP anyway). What are my options? A falcon (derp rapiers), a drake (derp all BC are basically the same thing in decent sized gangs), and a raven (derp typhoon). Everything else is basically flame bait.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I've been sparring with Atsuko on the forums for probably 4 years...
-Liang
To be fair, I've played on and off and even then not all that much. All I do is PvP and I don't have that many kills 
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Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.07.07 21:03:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
You think that because you are a newer player. You want to mix it up, get in the game. You dont want to sit on the sideline or have a disadvantage vs a vet player, its understandable. Balance however, isnt always about giving one set of players an advantage over others, its about being fair. Tech 2 varities of ships should have more advantages than their tech 1 counterpart. Its something we've accepted in the game. Tier 2 BC's vs CS's break this rule. And they have a high SP cost and isk cost, is that fair to those players that have invested in CS's to have the carpet yanked out f
I've been sparring with Atsuko on the forums for probably 4 years...
-Liang
So I stand corrected. I made an assumption based on the material I had. You know what they say about assumptions.....*le sigh*
Anyhoo, I gotta go pick up my wife at the subway. let the debate rage on!
PS:NerfTier2BC's!
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Amanda Mor
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.08 05:33:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Amanda Mor
Tier 1 BC's sure, but I'm having plenty of fun with my newly skilled Myrm, so I don't see a need to buff it tbh.
I think the problem here is that you haven't flown the other batttlecruisers with good to make an informed decision. I've flown all the Battlecruisers, and I was historically a *huge* fan of the Myrm. But spending some time in a well skilled Drake cured me of that right quick! No, like I've said in many posts - Tier 2 BCs are the best balanced of the classes, and there's no lack of cool **** you can do in Eve with any race... but that doesn't mean that some lovin doesn't need to be spread around some. ;-)
-Liang
I may have misled you somewhat - when I said "newly skilled Myrmidon", I didn't mean to imply that I was a noob to the class; I've been flying Canes (and to a much lesser extent, Cyclones) for about a year and a half. Haven't flown the Harb or Drake as of yet, but I've fought plenty of them, so I'm well aware of what each are capable of (and not capable of).
2 of the tier 2 BC's are for damage - Cane and Harb
2 of them are for tanking, one active (Myrm), one passive (Drake)
They all have an important role that they do better than the other 3 at, thus I don't see a need for any of them to be adjusted, but wouldn't complain if they buff the Myrm, just like I wouldn't complain if they buffed the Cane (which also doesn't need it).
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I don't have an alt, but there's a main that would be upset if he heard me say that... |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.08 08:28:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Amanda Mor
I may have misled you somewhat - when I said "newly skilled Myrmidon", I didn't mean to imply that I was a noob to the class; I've been flying Canes (and to a much lesser extent, Cyclones) for about a year and a half. Haven't flown the Harb or Drake as of yet, but I've fought plenty of them, so I'm well aware of what each are capable of (and not capable of).
That doesn't necessarily strike me as true when you claim that Myrm vs Drake isn't even a close fight and is in the Myrm's favor.
Quote:
They all have an important role that they do better than the other 3 at, thus I don't see a need for any of them to be adjusted, but wouldn't complain if they buff the Myrm, just like I wouldn't complain if they buffed the Cane (which also doesn't need it).
I feel that we've beat this issue to death. I've flown both ships (where you haven't), and I've shown that even theoretically a single Myrm can barely hold its own against a single Drake. The number of reasons to fly a Drake over a Myrm are legion. You're entitled to your opinion, but I will say it doesn't appear terribly well based in the reality of Eve game mechanics or known situations to me.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Scott Ryder
Amarr
art of eve
Gunmen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2010.07.08 09:40:00 -
[163]
The only issue I can see is the passive shield recharge.
That should be fixed,and fyi I have a drake alt
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Tenacious Di
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Posted - 2010.07.08 10:30:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Tenacious Di on 08/07/2010 10:31:03
The Drake is one of the very few useful Caldari pvp ships.
No it shouldn't be nerfed.
As the above poster said.
2 of the tier 2 BC's are for damage - Cane and Harb
2 of them are for tanking, one active (Myrm), one passive (Drake)
They each have their advantages.
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Braise Erighani
Gallente
Les chevaliers d'Ombre
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Posted - 2010.07.08 10:31:00 -
[165]
The problem isn't the drake, the problem is the passive shield tanking.
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Zeta Zhul
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.08 11:55:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Braise Erighani
The problem isn't the drake, the problem is the passive shield tanking.
No.
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this signature line intentionally left blank. |
Smk56
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Posted - 2010.07.08 12:33:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Braise Erighani
The problem isn't the drake, the problem is the passive shield tanking.
There's no problem at all.
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Scott Ryder
Amarr
art of eve
Gunmen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2010.07.08 13:45:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Tenacious Di
Edited by: Tenacious Di on 08/07/2010 10:31:03
The Drake is one of the very few useful Caldari pvp ships.
No it shouldn't be nerfed.
As the above poster said.
2 of the tier 2 BC's are for damage - Cane and Harb
2 of them are for tanking, one active (Myrm), one passive (Drake)
They each have their advantages.
But the drake maintains very close to desired dps even when tanked.
The harbinger is a glass cannon.
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Shade Millith
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.08 14:38:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
No. It outshines all other Caldari ships because my ships are terrible. There isn't a single ship type that I can fly that isn't totally outclassed by other race (in PvP anyway). What are my options? A falcon (derp rapiers), a drake (derp all BC are basically the same thing in decent sized gangs), and a raven (derp typhoon). Everything else is basically flame bait.
And this is a big truth here.
Look at Caldari HAC's. Cerb, and Eagle, while they do alright at their job, they're not a zealot, or a vagabond, or a Ishtar.
Compare the caldari T2 cruiser line up for solo vs any other race.... It's pretty pathetic. Even the other races T1 cruisers do better than caldari HAC's. I'd rather fly (If I had the skills for) a rupture, arbitrator, or vexor than fly a cerb or eagle in solo PVP.
And I might as well press selfdestruct trying to solo in a Caracal against anything other than frigates
Yes, the drake is a better "In your face brawler" than the other 3 teir2 BC's.
Same as the zealot and the munnin are better than the other 2 Sniper HAC's.
How the Domi is a far better solo boat than any of the other 3 races BSs.
How the curse/pilgrim are solo PVP powerhouses over the other 3 races recons/cruisers/and several of the BCs.
How the vagabond is a better hit and run HAC over the other 3 races.
How the ishkur is the king of AF's atm over the other 3 races.
How the Taranis is the best combat intercepter over the other 3 races
And I could go on and on and on and on.
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Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:18:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Shade Millith
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
No. It outshines all other Caldari ships because my ships are terrible. There isn't a single ship type that I can fly that isn't totally outclassed by other race (in PvP anyway). What are my options? A falcon (derp rapiers), a drake (derp all BC are basically the same thing in decent sized gangs), and a raven (derp typhoon). Everything else is basically flame bait.
And this is a big truth here.
Look at Caldari HAC's. Cerb, and Eagle, while they do alright at their job, they're not a zealot, or a vagabond, or a Ishtar.
Compare the caldari T2 cruiser line up for solo vs any other race.... It's pretty pathetic. Even the other races T1 cruisers do better than caldari HAC's. I'd rather fly (If I had the skills for) a rupture, arbitrator, or vexor than fly a cerb or eagle in solo PVP.
And I might as well press selfdestruct trying to solo in a Caracal against anything other than frigates
Yes, the drake is a better "In your face brawler" than the other 3 teir2 BC's.
Same as the zealot and the munnin are better than the other 2 Sniper HAC's.
How the Domi is a far better solo boat than any of the other 3 races BSs.
How the curse/pilgrim are solo PVP powerhouses over the other 3 races recons/cruisers/and several of the BCs.
How the vagabond is a better hit and run HAC over the other 3 races.
How the ishkur is the king of AF's atm over the other 3 races.
How the Taranis is the best combat intercepter over the other 3 races
And I could go on and on and on and on.
Fine then just boost CS's and also Tier 1 BC's. If you do that however, then the Drake wont be the ugly lil "pwn mobile" (and before you flame, Im joking about the pwn mobile thing) it is now.
Problem is that then you get into a boosting war. As I said above, increasing the ability of items in a MMO is dangerous business.
CS's are clearly under powered compared to Tier 2 BC's. Tier 1 BC's clearly suck compared to Tier 2 - needs to be fixed.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:30:00 -
[171]
Someone must have lost a Slepnier to a Battlecruiser!!
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Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:36:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Cosmic Rainbow on 08/07/2010 15:36:25
Originally by: Meeko Atari
Someone must have lost a Slepnier to a Battlecruiser!!
You're so cute Meeko. Cynical, but cute.
No I havent lost a CS to a BC...none that I can ever recall actually.
I *almost* did once....an Abso vs Drake 
What made it worse is that I smack talked beforehand about how n00b it was to bring a drake and attack an Abso...lol.
Anyhoo - its not about losing a ship to me in a given week/month/quarter w/e. Its more about the big picture. Whats balanced, what's not, and what's fair. At present the whole Tier 2 BC vs CS issue is very unfair, primarily due to the amount of training time required for CS's.
Now as Ive stated above, I think AF's and Destroyers should be fixed first, as their situation is more dire. I dont fly AF's and I dont fly destroyers (I used to fly dictors but w/e) but I think they need their role more defined, and it will make things more enjoyable for newer players. Again - big picture. Fixing the balance issues.
Edit: for failed seplling
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Lili Lu
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:38:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Braise Erighani
The problem isn't the drake, the problem is the passive shield tanking.
Yes, Drakes have pvp utility as all BCs do. The big imbalance with the Drake though is the tanking bonus and passive shield tanking. However the fix does not necessarilly lie with altering the Drake. Specifically, the problem is passive shield tanking on all BCs, not just the Drake. BCs have almost BS shield hps, but they get almost cruiser shield regen (BC-1400, Cruiser-1250). This is what makes passive shield Drakes the quickest entre into level 4 ISK making. Slap on some extenders, purgers, spr and you're good to go. The damage potential is adequate despite the Drake Booster Club's disclaimers, and adequate is good enough. A now nerfed Myrmidon with a Vexor's damage output is not as adequate for level 4s.
To fix the Drake pve imbalance all CCP would need to do is increase the shield regen time for all BCs. 1500, 1600, or more would pull the passive Drake back into the level 3 realm where all other BCs reside.
If CCP wanted to really balance things out they would also make some consistency with the tier 1 and 2 BCs. Prophecy, Cyclone, Ferox, and Brutix all get tank bonuses. Because of the one less low/medium slot for teir 1 they do not become better than BS tanks like passive Drakes and Myrms can become. The Harbinger and Hurricane are gank boats. The Drake and Myrm could be reoriented to be gank as well.
For the Myrm give it a 100m3 bandwidth and a 5% medium hybrid bonus, drop the repper bonus, it sucks anyway. For the Drake, drop the resist bonus and give a 5% damage bonus. Then every missile would be bonused, kinetic would be double bonused. I'm sure that pvp HAM drakes would be quite more popular. So, we could finally stop hearing the "we don't have any good pvp boats . . ."
However, the sad part is that so many are so wedded to their noob brick easy mode passive Drakes. Any alteration would require CCP to grow some mighty gonads, which will not happen, to withstand the whine barrage that would ensue. So rest easy you brick drake lovers.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:54:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Lili Lu
...
If you think passive tanks in pve are balancing issue, you are stupid. If you think that drakes doing l4 missions are balancing issue, same.
If you think passive shield tank fits are actually viable pvp, you are ******ed.
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
...
You are not even a good troll because your arguments are stupid as you are...
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:57:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Scott Ryder
fits and junk
I'm gonna go ahead and compare my 5 minute EFT fits and include more than just the bare minimum information:
[Drake, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Fleeting Warp Disruptor I
Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
[empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hornet II x5
[Harbinger, New Setup 1]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Fleeting Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
[empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
Drake fit fits with a 1% powergrid (3% if you don't have awu5) and the hard fits with a 3% cpu implant.
Go to next post: too long x.x
Loss (noun): detriment, disadvantage, or deprivation from failure to keep, have, or get: to bear the loss of a robbery.
Spell it right |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.07.08 16:00:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
...
Terrible fits, especially harbinger.
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Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.07.08 16:01:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
...
Terrible fits, especially harbinger.
I dont think anyone bothers reading your posts lulgasm because they are obvious trolls and you seem to be desperate need for attention.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.08 16:02:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 08/07/2010 16:03:57
---Range; Damage;---
Drake: 20.5km; 519dps; Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Harb: 23km+5km; 426dps; Scorch M
Drake: 30.4km; 406dps; Terror Javelin Assault Missile
Harb: 7.5km+5km; 535dps; Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Drake: 20.5km; 415dps; Caldari Navy Fulmination Assault Missile
Some quick notable info here: the drake's range is typically a fair bit lower than the range EFT pretends it is. Even if the target ship is not moving, the maximum range missiles will go tends to be a little bit less. Realistically, you're looking at 18.5km/28.5km max range, and less if the target is moving.
---Drones---
Drake: 5 hornets; 90dps
Harb: 5 Hammerheads; 158dps
I'm looking at these ships in a gang setting, and there is no reason for the harb to forgo 68dps just to "hit smaller ships". That's like comparing the harb and drake with the harb fielding the smallest medium guns and then complaining that it does much less dps.
---Speed---
Drake: 175m; 1038m MWD; 8.6 align time; 11.7 align time MWD
Harb: 166m; 946m MWD; 10.2 align time; 13.7 align time MWD
Here, the drake wins outright. That's to be expected, as generally the Caldari have better agility than Amarr, while the Harb is gimping its speed with the armor rigs.
---Cap---
Drake: With all modules active, burns out in 3 minutes 16 seconds. Cap stable without MWD running. With no tackle gear active, burns out in 4 minutes 34 seconds.
Harb: With all modules active, burns out in 2 minutes 47 seconds. Without MWD running (but all other modules), burns out in 13 minutes 35 seconds. With no tackle gear active, burns out in 3 minutes 28 seconds. Cap stable if only guns and tracking computer are running.
These numbers are apparent. The extra cap load from the lasers makes the Harby a tiny bit less cap effective. However, I did not feel that it ran out fast enough to warrant a cap booster. In the time it takes for a drake to reload, a Harb can stop its lasers and regain enough cap to fire again for another minute (4 without the MWD on).
---Tank---
Drake: 80,318 EHP; 142 passive recharge; 345m signature; 2069 signature with MWD
Harb: 61,715 EHP; 265 signature; 1590 signature with MWD
The tanks are vastly different here, but that is to be expected with the Drake's tank bonus. It's worth noting that the Drake has a vastly larger sig radius, both MWDing and not, which can be an issue against battleship tracking and torps. Some other key notes are overheating and neuting. The drake can overload to achieve a 90,000 EHP tank, but at the same time, can be neuted to gimp its tank down to 62,000 EHP. The harby's tank is passive and thus, is immune to neuting, but cannot overload.
With these stats (I'm not even sure if I built the Harby well tbh), there is a slight advantage to the drake, which mostly comes in the form of its tank, but that is to be completely expected with its tank bonus. The harb has the ability to deal more damage than the drake at close ranges, and can shoot father than the drake (Scorch shoots beyond 30km and deals about the same DPS). The Harby comes with tracking and cap issues, while the drake comes with explosion velocity/radius issues (you're not gonna touch an mwding frigate, no matter how well you pilot, as a drake). The drake must stop, and reload, if it needs to switch to ranged ammo or a different damage type (and lose the 25% damage bonus), while the Harby can change instantly, but does not have the option of changing damage types.
TBH, I don't see that much of a balance issue. If you want more EHP on your Harby, ask for the cap bonus to be changed to a tank bonus.
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
...
Terrible fits, especially harbinger.
Cookie cutter drake is terrible? I guess you're just the best pilot in the game then.
Loss (noun): detriment, disadvantage, or deprivation from failure to keep, have, or get: to bear the loss of a robbery.
Spell it right |
Lugalzagezi666
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 16:07:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
...
Terrible fits, especially harbinger.
I dont think anyone bothers reading your posts lulgasm because they are obvious trolls and you seem to be desperate need for attention.
Says troll who spams this thread with loads of useless posts full of incompetence and fail.
Also im not surprised you dont see how bad that fits are, because from your first posts it was clear you are clueless when it comes to fitting and using ships.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Quafe Industries
|
Posted - 2010.07.08 16:15:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Cookie cutter drake has t2 lse and 3% pg implant, 2x bcu, pdu + nos/neut or 6xham + 1hml. And warriors /or hobgoblins if you are sure you wont get tackled by some tackle frig/. I cant think of anything that will lead competent pvper to use kin drones - especially on drake that has big advantage with kin missiles, but i guess you enjoy 5min pvp sessions with sar ishkurs.
Actually you're right, I meant to fit warriors ._.;
But no, you're "cookie cutter" drake fit is pretty bad. So are your RR shield harby fits tbh.
Loss (noun): detriment, disadvantage, or deprivation from failure to keep, have, or get: to bear the loss of a robbery.
Spell it right |
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